Timeline - 1962

[PeacefulWar]

LOL.

No, India knew nothing about Aksai Chin until the chance discovery of the Xinjiang highway by a police patrol. That area was falsely included due to a terribly bad decision by an Indian leader. There were three lines that were floating around. If you are interested to know, let me know.

I'm also interested to know

 

[Joe Shearer]

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Figaro
@PeacefulWar

Please see the composite map above; I took it from Wikipedia, but from memory, it matches accurate depictions of the map controversy.

The outermost purple dotted line is an embarrassment; it was based on a cheating British surveyor who extracted money from one of the Maharajas of Kashmir by suggesting that his realm extended to the Kunlun Mountains (shown in the top right hand corner). This man, Johnson, was sacked by the British authorities once they found out what he had done. However, another civil servant, Ardagh, felt it would be a defensible line, and therefore it is sometimes called the Johnson-Ardagh Line.

The green line is a line discussed with the Chinese authorities of the Qing Empire by a civil servant, Macartney, consul at Kashgar, and agreed by local authorities, submitted to the central authorities at Beijing by the British envoy, MacDonald, but never acknowledged. The yellow line to the lower left of that green dotted line is a compromise line sometimes used by the British.

The broad yellow line running top left to bottom right is the Xinjiang Highway, built in 1952 or so by a PRC Cavalry commander, and only discovered by an Indian patrol in 1957. The highway runs through the proper Aksai Chin; the whole disputed region is called Aksai Chin, because newspaper readers cannot be bothered to go through these details.

I hope it is useful.

 

[meghdut]

This is really revealing

 

[Joe Shearer]

This is really revealing

You see, the Macartney-MacDonald Line more or less coincides with a local mountain range that is a natural boundary. It would have been very convenient if Nehru had only accepted Premier Zhou EnLai's proposal, that the line be decided along Macartney-MacDonald Line. Instead, he refused, and Mao's ego took over.

 

[litman]

why the indian forces gave up so quickly?? they were defending the area that means they could defend their territory with 1/3rd man power as compared to the attacking chineses army. there can be two reasons. either the chinese attack was coordianted and overwhelming or the indian defences were very weak. later seems to be more true as indian army also failed to stop the much smaller pak army's offensive in kashmir in operation grand slam in 65.it is very astonishing that with in 10 years of its independance china amassed huge army that could lock horns with US in korea, veitnam and over run indian army in 62.
the military lessons that we cen get from it is that the numerically superior army if attacks a smaller army after thorough preparation and coordination it can easily over run the smaller defending army. there arent much tactics which the smaller army can use to defeat the bigger army other then coming down to guerilla warfare. what it means for pak? it means with 8 lac military in kashmir india can over run pakistani defences in kashmir any day they want. if india puts its cold start doctrine action into action and open the entire border they can tear aprt pakistani defences . it seems that pak has developed Nasr missile for that particular moment. how they will use it i dont know but many neutral analysts say that pak may need to use them inside its own territory after losing it to india. in my opinion pak should use them inside india behind the advancing indian army so as to cut of the logistics and isolating the advancing indian army and then launching counter attack on them.

 

[Joe Shearer]

This is really revealing

In case you are wondering about the third line, that is never shown anywhere, it is the only one that is the subject of a settlement of the borders between Tibet and Ladakh.

In 1842, a brilliant Dogra General, Zorawar Singh, mounted his last campaign for his master, the Dogra chief of Jammu, the Raja of Jammu, a vassal of Ranjit Singh, the great Sikh ruler who ruled from Lahore. He had earlier fought and won Baltistan and Ladakh for Gulab Singh, the Raja of Jammu. This, added to earlier conquests, formed a hollow ring around the Vale of Kashmir, that was ruled by a separate governor for the great Sikh ruler.

So now Zorawar Singh set out to conquer Tibet.

He won some battles in western Tibet, but could not make much progress, as he was trapped by winter. His soldiers were soon burning their musket stocks to stay alive. A joint Sino-Tibetan team then fought and defeated the Dogra army. They killed Zorawar Singh; some stories say that they ate his heart to try and gain his courage for themselves! Some part of the Army fled down into the Himachal area, and circled around to march on Leh. The Sino-Tibetan army marched to Leh and attacked the Dogras there. The survivors of the earlier attack rejoined the main Dogra forces at Leh, and the combined forces beat the Sino-Tibetans, killing the Chinese Ambon, or delegate to Tibet.

Since both armies had fought themselves to a stand still, the Tibetans agreed to return, and they, and the Dogras+ Ladakhis, signed the Treaty of Chushul, agreeing by their gods never to violate the traditional boundaries. Sadly, they never described those boundaries; if they had, it would have saved a great deal of trouble.

 

[Joe Shearer]

they were defending the area that means they could defend their territory with 1/3rd man power as compared to the attacking chineses army.

Technically, yes. But the facts were rather different.

 

[Joe Shearer]

there can be two reasons. either the chinese attack was coordianted and overwhelming or the indian defences were very weak. later seems to be more true as indian army also failed to stop the much smaller pak army's offensive in kashmir in operation grand slam in 65.

It was the former. That was about the PLA in 1962.

What happened in Grand Slam has been discussed in detail in this very forum, just days ago.

 

[PeacefulWar]

You see, the Macartney-MacDonald Line more or less coincides with a local mountain range that is a natural boundary. It would have been very convenient if Nehru had only accepted Premier Zhou EnLai's proposal, that the line be decided along Macartney-MacDonald Line. Instead, he refused, and Mao's ego took over.

Nehru tot he can get whatever he want with USSR's back and the fact that China was in deep troubled that time(Great Famine 1959-1961).

I heard(circulated in Chinese internet) China still offered proposals like China give up claim in Arunachal Pradesh
and India give up claim of Aksai Chin as late as 2000s to settle border disputes.
Although it's not officially confirmed, I personally it's very possible. Especially China show tremendously sincerities to solve all land border disputes in 2000s(and China did solved all land disputes expect with India).

What are India's domestic opinions towards this border dispute? Hawkish or pragmatic?

 

[Joe Shearer]

it is very astonishing that with in 10 years of its independance china amassed huge army that could lock horns with US in korea, veitnam and over run indian army in 62.

You might like to look up the excellent performance by the Chinese (KMT) soldiers in Burma, who were battered at first in the Japanese onslaught, then rested and refitted in Assam, and went back into battle only months later, and fought very well indeed. The Red Army fought these same very fit and effective Chinese troops and drove them right across China into the island of Taiwan. This was the same Red Army that attacked the UN forces within ONE year, not ten years, in Korea. It never fought the Americans in Vietnam. Instead, it fought the Vietnamese in Vietnam, in 1987.

Why the PLA won in 1962 was discussed in detail in a long thread by me and my dear Chinese friend, Chauism, who doesn't appear on the forum any more.

It is a long story, and you have to remember that the PLA in 1962 fought only a small part of the Indian Army, around 3 brigades in the NEFA/Arunachal Pradesh area, another brigade in Ladakh/Aksai Chin.

 

[Joe Shearer]

the military lessons that we cen get from it is that the numerically superior army if attacks a smaller army after thorough preparation and coordination it can easily over run the smaller defending army. there arent much tactics which the smaller army can use to defeat the bigger army other then coming down to guerilla warfare. what it means for pak? it means with 8 lac military in kashmir india can over run pakistani defences in kashmir any day they want. if india puts its cold start doctrine action into action and open the entire border they can tear aprt pakistani defences .

Within some limits this is correct. But there are other factors at play, as well.

@PanzerKiel.

 

[Joe Shearer]

in my opinion pak should use them inside india behind the advancing indian army so as to cut of the logistics and isolating the advancing indian army and then launching counter attack on them.

That, unfortunately, will lead to nuclear war. Pakistan can, at best, use it in her own territory.

We can discuss this, separately, on another thread.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Nehru tot he can get whatever he want with USSR's back and the fact that China was in deep troubled that time

The USSR came to support India after 1962.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I heard(circulated in Chinese internet) China still offered proposals like China give up claim in Arunachal Pradesh
and India give up claim of Aksai Chin as late as 2000s to settle border disputes.

This was offered by Prime Minister Zhou En Lai, before 1962. There was some very positive discussion after Rajiv Gandhi's visit to Beijing, but ultimately, for whatever reason, nothing came of it.