Thunder Resonates as Modernization Inches Forward in Pakistan

[Hobo1]

So now Pak wants to sell JFs to Saudis.
Pakistan not giving Saudi Arabia nuke technology: FO - thenews.com.pk
Pakistan to sell combat jets to Saudi Arabia - UPI.com

 

[Chak Bamu]

Please refrain from references to religious personalities. History of religion can be discussed elsewhere. The best defense is not to offend.

Thank You.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Modern military aircraft with relaxed static stability(RSS) must needed a electronic flight control system in all axis.... First batches of JF17 only had fly by wire in pitch axis only... You can check this in your early jft threads or your PAC website (now also showing may be because of no updation) ...This clearly state that JFT is more a stable aircraft ...
When we consider LCA ya F16 development Full FBW was a primary objective... The claim about later addition of LERX and DSI in jft increased instability is there.... but an Aircraft designed with RSS and this are very very diff...
Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra - JF-17 Thunder Aircraft

Mach 1.6 is from jf_17 IDEAS 2012 specifications... Do you have any new specification... Just post it bro.. I was banned in JF17 thread... So no interest visiting there ...

PAC and JFT's official websites have not been updated since 2007 and the specs shown there r of JFT's PT01 or 02's.

The production model for JFT is PT04 with DSI intakes. Mr Weiwei's (CATIC) presentation on JFT to PAF and JFT's specs for Dubai air show 2011 r shown here.......Specifications of JF-17 blk1 based on Dubai Airshow 2011

This thread has credible specs of jft then wikipedia, JFT's website or PAC's website.

 

[Kompromat]

As a moderator you should no better. What cuts? The FGFA has been delayed by 2 years at most, the Rafale will still be delivered in 2017. But if you think there is no need for the J-10B that is your call, just don't make things up, okay sir?

* FGFA's order was cut by almost a factor of 50%. Plus the distaste IAF has shown towards its low observeability as well as the Russian unwillingness to share the critical tevhnologies. Its delayed and its an indication of things to come for FGFA.

* Rafale deal hasn't been signed yet. Its being delayed and order is likely to see cuts.

* Tejas may see greater numbers instead.

I don't think there is any need for J-10Bs now. What we need is to find partners and develop JF-17 Block -III onwards along the lines of the Gripen NG.

We must use this platform to create a mushroom of small aviation industries for sub systems, software and strap ons, as Israel has.

 

[farhan_9909]

* FGFA's order was cut by almost a factor of 50%. Plus the distaste IAF has shown towards its low observeability as well as the Russian unwillingness to share the critical tevhnologies. Its delayed and its an indication of things to come for FGFA.

* Rafale deal hasn't been signed yet. Its being delayed and order is likely to see cuts.

* Tejas may see greater numbers instead.

I don't think there is any need for J-10Bs now. What we need is to find partners and develop JF-17 Block -III onwards along the lines of the Gripen NG.

We must use this platform to create a mushroom of small aviation industries for sub systems, software and strap ons, as Israel has.

And with the end of Nawaz Govt if our GDP reaches 400-450billion dollars and our defence budget reaches upto 15-18billion dollars.Than we can enter into any 5th generation fighter program with china

 

[Kompromat]

And with the end of Nawaz Govt if our GDP reaches 400-450billion dollars and our defence budget reaches upto 15-18billion dollars.Than we can enter into any 5th generation fighter program with china

I'm not too hopeful about the economic growth, though i do have optimism.

What we need is to milk Thunder - Develop sub industries - Set up a fully C4i integrated SAM network with, point defence, short, medium and long range SAMs instead of the J-10Bs.

We'll go fifth gen when we could afford to, do so.

 

[Abingdonboy]

* FGFA's order was cut by almost a factor of 50%. Plus the distaste IAF has shown towards its low observeability as well as the Russian unwillingness to share the critical tevhnologies. Its delayed and its an indication of things to come for FGFA.

The IAF has not mentioned this officially at all. We don't know exact numbers it is still 200-250. The 214 figure was never either confirmed or denied by the IAF. Even if it wad 214, that's still more than enough to dominate the PAF.

* Rafale deal hasn't been signed yet. Its being delayed and order is likely to see cuts.

Delayed until next govt so by a few months, deliveries will still be made in 2017. No talk of cuts has been made whatsoever-not even speculated so i really have no idea where you've got this from. 126 is set in stone, the only thing on the line is the follow-on clause for 63 units (to take the goal to 189) but even these look pretty certain:

India could buy up to 189 French Rafale fighter jets: sources | NDTV.com
Livefist: Dassault Pushes India To Up Rafale Order, India Says 'Good Wine Takes Time'
India could buy up to 189 French Rafale fighter jets: sources
India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales — Military Forum | Airliners.net

* Tejas may see greater numbers instead.

Again pure speculation. The IAF have ruled out the LCA filling the gap though, the LCA is in NO WAY a replacement for the Rafale/MMRCA or FGFA.

 

[Dazzler]

keep comparisons and off topic rants away and stick to the topic please.

 

[raazh]

Hi,

The enemy does not care if your plane is sanction proof and without sanctions. Its only concern is---when the two come face to face---what would yours do aganist its. The enemy does not but we do, you dont want a plane that is good for one sortie only now would you ??

It is by default that if you have an F22---all the supporting and complimentary systems would be designed to compliment that system. In real world it does not work this way that you have JF17's aircraft---but your complimentary systems are on the scale to support the F22's----it never has and never will be.
I gave you an example; that fighter plane is not the only thing that dictates the outcome of wars; its one of the many other assets that if worked together properly can give you the edge u want.

All planes are designed to perform certain tasks---but these tasks are not performed in ether---just because they are designed to perform a certain task----does not mean that the enemy would allow it to perform that certain task.
Precisely what I said, depending on the situation and doctrine; we need to practise how to use all our assets to the best of our advantage.

In reality---if PAF can put up 300 to 400 JF 17's against the 240 SU30's---that would be a monstrous acheivement----and if you then claim that you can take the enemy any place any time---absoluetly---because you have enough in numbers to make a sustained campaign.
You are discussing war between two countries right and not a p*ss fighting competition between two school kids?? Relax IN REALITY no one brings 400 planes against 250 planes head on in any war .. missions are planned and carried out in unison with the forces objectives.

You have to remember what the enemy perceives of its SU30---it is like a GOD---untouchable---without reproach---. So, in order for you to smash the enemy's pride---you have to have a certain amount of aircraft to take them mano a mano and come out ahead.
I did not see any god (SU30) crossing the border during or after 1999 Kargil, 2001 Indian Parliment or 2008 Mumbai attacks. Hell we did not even have the JF17 or F16Bl52 then .. I wonder what were the 200+ Su30's doing then??

"So, in order for you to smash the enemy's pride" This is not the objective of PAF now. PAF main aim is to deny IAF air superioty over PAKISTANi airspace. To smash enemy pride/ high value targets inside enemy territory, we now have a plethora of missiles (less risky and more likely to do its job successfully deeeep inside enemy territory) aimed at them 24x7x365 which will make sure that the god (SU30) will think 100 times before crossing the border.

 

[Beast]

wp 6 -licenced version of russian RD-9

wp13- russian R-13

ws9- rolls royce rb168..

Do you want the licenced production list of engines by HAL??

Kunlun engine - WP14 is a totally new design of turbojet design by China with max thrust possible reaching 8400kg.
Its share no lineage from R-13.

AVIC-I about to realize indigenous engines production for PLA Air Force | China Defense Mashup

SEDRI also introduced that “Kunlun” Turbo Engine (WP-14) improved model WP-14II has passed the technical examination and effectively ensure the delivery for new members of J-8II and J-7 family. China resource indicated that WP-14II’s maximum thrust has reached 8400 kg.

Even the WS-9 has received considerable upgrade from the previous design of rb168, therefore it is not exactly the same thing of 1960 RB168 sprey engine. They are uprated engine with thrust and technical capabilities comparable to scenma M53 P2. Just like B-52 currently serving in the USAF. Do you think is exactly the B-52 in the 1950s? They are modernised B-52.Same as our WS-9 is not the old 1960s sprey engine. It has modernised and suit more for the 90s.

JH-7 Chief Designer: Qinling-2 Turbofan is competitive to French M53-P2 engine | China Defense Mashup

According to Ta Kung Pao, China began research on the WS-15 Qinling-2 Turbofan in 1998. The Qinling-2 Turbofan is an improvement on the WS-9 turbofan, with increased pre-heating temperatures on the turbines and reduced weight for greater efficiency. Tests on the Qinling-2 Turbofan in October 2008 were successful. It is now technically competitive to the late M53-P2 engine from France.

India so called licensed produced Russia engine has help them learn nothing in helping their domestic engine industries as Russian is no idiot to share core technology when comes to aeronautic engine. Important metallurgy parts are still shipped in a whole piece to India to assemble for the whole complete engine.

If you don't believe me, show me a picture of kaveri engine powering your LCA,even its prototype. Nope!!

At least for China, our WS-10A engine is still not matured yet. But at least we got things to show and its a working engine.

J-10b flying with domestic WS-10A engine for pt 1035.

India modern turbofan technology is still at least a decade behind compare to China. Your so called licensed produced engine is not even comparable to China. In China, we master the technology and then modification is done to existing design as we have absorb the core study. While in India, after a decade India still produced the same exact engine the Russia provided you all 10 years ago with no upgrade or whatever.

 

[syedali73]

I cannot believe that this is being written on a Pakistani forum and not refuted by anyone.

It was in response to my post in which I gave a reference of him using profane language against the prophet (PBUH). First of all, I am sorry for giving that reference; there was perhaps no need to dig that up to make the point I was trying to make. It is obvious to most of us that Mastan uses this kind of language when he is left with no viable argument to make. I wanted to reply but than I saw no point in doing so. He would never admit his mistake anyway, and chances were (are), he would defend his response and make matters worse. I just did not want to add fuel to the fire. Secondly, it had no relevance to this thread. I understand that he is a veteran member but this should not render his posts immune to moderation. Time and time again, I have reported posts in which he used profane language but to no avail.

 

[SQ8]

@MastanKhan Despite your years on this planet. Please try to avoid bringing in a religous reference that is disputed and leads to dischord and derailment on a thread. Just because you have failed to convince a member through argument(and this goes for @raazh as well)... do not try to condemn or forcefully convert them

 

[Chak Bamu]

It was in response to my post in which I gave a reference of him using profane language against the prophet (PBUH). First of all, I am sorry for giving that reference; there was perhaps no need to dig that up to make the point I was trying to make. It is obvious to most of us that Mastan uses this kind of language when he is left with no viable argument to make. I wanted to reply but than I saw no point in doing so. He would never admit his mistake anyway, and chances were (are), he would defend his response and make matters worse. I just did not want to add fuel to the fire. Secondly, it had no relevance to this thread. I understand that he is a veteran member but this should not render his posts immune to moderation. Time and time again, I have reported posts in which he used profane language but to no avail.

My friend, let me take an issue with your bringing up a religious matter. This forum is full of all sorts of people. It is simply more prudent to overlook something when a moderator has ignored it. You can report a post. You can send a PM to moderator(s). And that really should be the end of it. It serves no purpose to make an issue, because there are many people who would rather engage in silly, useless, and even blasphemous debates. It is just prudent to ignore such issues. I know you have ghairat of deen, but it is not wise to give air to controversy, because that just spreads fitna. It is not OK to tolerate rashness, but it is not right to give air to such views either by discussing them. Agar koi ghalati kar lai tau uss ko aur gunahgar nahin karna chahiyay.

@araz, pls see above. Also you are talking of Jonah (Younus). I hope you agree with my contentions.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

First of all---I did not bring that part into the discussion---. Read my post again.

Araz---what is your problem----have you lost total sanity----. It was indeed through the guidance of Allah that prophet Mohammad did what he did---. Did I say otherwise.

Everything that happens to the prophets are through the divine intervention and guidance of Allah---does it become otherwise because one does not say it every time---does not mean that it is not.

Are you people challenging that the prophet did not escape the house in the dark of the night and hid in the cave with his friend.

You know what---I must have really hurt your feelings on the JF17----that is why all of you are GANGING UP ON ME.


OSCAR----let us get one thing straight----I never convince anyone----that is your pakistani way of thinking---where it is the utmost thing to 'CONVINCE' any one and every one.

I just put my views on the paper---I don't know where you guys keep coming up with this 'convince' issue. If I look at things different than you----why it should be a problem---if my perception is different then is it a crime.

What is it---are we living in medieval times---. Are you people ganging up on me and wanting to declare me a heretic and light me on fire---because I said not too pleasant things about the JF17.

You guys seem like----if I met you on the streets in pakistan----you would be ready to throw gasoline on me and LIGHT ME ON FIRE.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

@@Manticore @@Oscar

It is in the best interest of all the members to stop / remove the mater that may cause disagreements regarding Religious content. If it seems appropriate block this post and restart a new trend or delete the content that may amount to be against the rules.