Thrifty at Fifty: PAF Mirages.

[Chimgathar]

Its a pity, PAF wasted precious time and never genuinely intended or thought of purchasing new combat platforms. They keep overhauling vintage aircraft over and over again putting precious life of pilots at risk. We lost pilots due to crashes of these vintage air crafts. This is criminal negligence but PAF leadership was always too high to revolve around F-16s only. Even after the US showed PAF the middle finger on F-16 deal the air chief insisted that things will work out. I hope common sense prevails and we replace these Mirages, F-7s etc with new air crafts.

 

[帅的一匹]

Hi,

Yessir---out of existing stock---.

Pakistan gets manipulated with a weak air force---. A very strong air force by 2004-05 would have brought in peace deal with India---.

We would have resolved the Kashmir dispute---.

You buy major weapons in a timely manner for the opponent to make peace---.

In 2005---once Paf donated its funds for F16---and claimed they had no more funds for aircraft---India walked away from an almost done peace deal.

You have to understand---why the JF17---it is not for what the aircraft can do---it is for Jobs for the Paf officers during service and after retirement---.

Otherwise why does an air force need to build an aircraft---no reason.



Hi,

Paf hated Gen Musharraf---. What Gen Musharraf did was cancel the order of 4 swedish eyerie awcs---and ordered 4 chinese awacs insteda---to diversify in case of swedish sanctions---.

The Paf hated him for that---then to top it off---Gen Musharraf Ordered 36 J10's as well---and the Paf was mad at him---.

China offered the J10's in a similar manner when in the late 90's they offered F7PG's to pakistan and Paf stated that they will take them when needed.

They were thinking that the F7PG was an inferior aircraft like the other F7's---but china gave them guarantees---and when Paf tested it---it was way beyond their expectations.

So---not getting the J10's is a matter of ego for the Paf---.

If the J10 came and proved to be superior or as good as the F16---the Paf would be slammed to the ground and put to shame---.

Please understand what is a JF17 aircraft---.

It is an aircraft similar in performance to the French F1 mirage that Paf could have procured in the early mid 80's with all the assembly and production rights---.

So---our BLK 1 JF17 had the same performance as that of the 1984 mirage F1---but the Mirage F1 had 2 times longer life cycle than that of the JF17---and engine with a longer life span.

That is why I call Paf traitors---they have no intention of gaining air superiority any where---.

Not to offend, I don't think PAF can help Pakistan to win a full scale war against India. They are never the decisive factor.
Let's hope all the best for AZM, still there is a chance to get upper hands.
If there is a war breaking out, China will not hesitate to deliver J10b/c in stock to PAF if they are overrun by IAF in numbers.
A strong China is everything Pakistan needs. And you never give up opportunity to get stronger by yourself.

Hi,

Yessir---out of existing stock---.

Pakistan gets manipulated with a weak air force---. A very strong air force by 2004-05 would have brought in peace deal with India---.

We would have resolved the Kashmir dispute---.

You buy major weapons in a timely manner for the opponent to make peace---.

In 2005---once Paf donated its funds for F16---and claimed they had no more funds for aircraft---India walked away from an almost done peace deal.

You have to understand---why the JF17---it is not for what the aircraft can do---it is for Jobs for the Paf officers during service and after retirement---.

Otherwise why does an air force need to build an aircraft---no reason.



Hi,

Paf hated Gen Musharraf---. What Gen Musharraf did was cancel the order of 4 swedish eyerie awcs---and ordered 4 chinese awacs insteda---to diversify in case of swedish sanctions---.

The Paf hated him for that---then to top it off---Gen Musharraf Ordered 36 J10's as well---and the Paf was mad at him---.

China offered the J10's in a similar manner when in the late 90's they offered F7PG's to pakistan and Paf stated that they will take them when needed.

They were thinking that the F7PG was an inferior aircraft like the other F7's---but china gave them guarantees---and when Paf tested it---it was way beyond their expectations.

So---not getting the J10's is a matter of ego for the Paf---.

If the J10 came and proved to be superior or as good as the F16---the Paf would be slammed to the ground and put to shame---.

Please understand what is a JF17 aircraft---.

It is an aircraft similar in performance to the French F1 mirage that Paf could have procured in the early mid 80's with all the assembly and production rights---.

So---our BLK 1 JF17 had the same performance as that of the 1984 mirage F1---but the Mirage F1 had 2 times longer life cycle than that of the JF17---and engine with a longer life span.

That is why I call Paf traitors---they have no intention of gaining air superiority any where---.

Bhi, try to produce a aircraft on your own and buy a aircraft off the shelf is totally different.
When PAF decided to go for JF17. They no longer define themself as only buyer in the future. They wanna be seller. That's also the reason why India pushes Tejas programme, although it's not satisfying until now. But it will shine in the future.

 

[MastanKhan]

Not to offend, I don't think PAF can help Pakistan to win a full scale war against India. They are never the decisive factor.
Let's hope all the best for AZM, still there is a chance to get upper hands.
If there is a war breaking out, China will not hesitate to deliver J10b/c in stock to PAF if they are overrun by IAF in numbers.
A strong China is everything Pakistan needs. And you never give up opportunity to get stronger by yourself.

Hi,

No---it is not about winning the war---it is always about having the ability to put some heavy damage on the enemy assets---.

The anticipation of damage so severe that the larger enemy says---it is not worth to be enemies---let us make peace---.

AZM is not going to do anything special fro Pakistan---in 2004---an order of 2 sqdrn's of Rafales---or 3-4 sqdrns f F16's would haev sealed the deal---.

India was a different nation before Modi came to power---. Peace was very possible---not now---.

In a current war scenario---china may not be able to do much---due to south china sea problems---.

The foreign forces have a very good plan to suffocate china and pakistan---they are getting very close---.

For this very reason---I had talked about pakistan military joining the Yemen war---building an extra force of 150000 troops including armor and quick deployment battle group---10 to 15 sqdrns of SU34 / 35 aircraft---6-10 054 type frigates--subs---small corvettes---gunship helicopters---transport aircraft--- etc etc etc.

Not to offend, I don't think PAF can help Pakistan to win a full scale war against India. They are never the decisive factor.
Let's hope all the best for AZM, still there is a chance to get upper hands.
If there is a war breaking out, China will not hesitate to deliver J10b/c in stock to PAF if they are overrun by IAF in numbers.
A strong China is everything Pakistan needs. And you never give up opportunity to get stronger by yourself.


Bhi, try to produce a aircraft on your own and buy a aircraft off the shelf is totally different.
When PAF decided to go for JF17. They no longer define themself as only buyer in the future. They wanna be seller. That's also the reason why India pushes Tejas programme, although it's not satisfying until now. But it will shine in the future.

Hi,

It is not the job of an air force to be in the sales business---its job is to protect the nation---.

Tejas is not an IAF program---like JF17 is to Paf.

 

[帅的一匹]

PAF had tasted blood in JF17 programme, and they wanna copy the same path in AZM. Can't you see it brother?

 

[khanmubashir]

Jf-17 is its replacement but it would not be completely replaced overnight i think they will serve us for atleast 10 more years that is not the problem the real problem is replacement for f-16 should we invest in a new platform j10b oor wait for the j31 5gen?

J31

We r going for qualitative / generational replacement
3rd gen mirages and f7 be replaced by 4th Gen jf 17 so 4 th gen f16 will be replaced by 5 th gen jet like j31 or tfx

 

[帅的一匹]

J31

We r going for qualitative / generational replacement
3rd gen mirages and f7 be replaced by 4th Gen jf 17 so 4 th gen f16 will be replaced by 5 th gen jet like j31 or tfx

Who knows? It might size-down version of J20.

Hi,

No---it is not about winning the war---it is always about having the ability to put some heavy damage on the enemy assets---.

The anticipation of damage so severe that the larger enemy says---it is not worth to be enemies---let us make peace---.

AZM is not going to do anything special fro Pakistan---in 2004---an order of 2 sqdrn's of Rafales---or 3-4 sqdrns f F16's would haev sealed the deal---.

India was a different nation before Modi came to power---. Peace was very possible---not now---.

In a current war scenario---china may not be able to do much---due to south china sea problems---.

The foreign forces have a very good plan to suffocate china and pakistan---they are getting very close---.

For this very reason---I had talked about pakistan military joining the Yemen war---building an extra force of 150000 troops including armor and quick deployment battle group---10 to 15 sqdrns of SU34 / 35 aircraft---6-10 054 type frigates--subs---small corvettes---gunship helicopters---transport aircraft--- etc etc etc.



Hi,

It is not the job of an air force to be in the sales business---its job is to protect the nation---.

Tejas is not an IAF program---like JF17 is to Paf.

Although many sub parts not produced by Pakistan, but it's a good start to learn engineering integration and fundamentals.You know how to drive a car doesn't mean you know how to build a car.
When your car is aging, you still have to spend a hell lots of money to buy new ones. As long as you able to build a car on yourself, no one can scam on you or cut the supplies.
One is a virtuous cycle and another one is a vicious cycle.
But I always think PAF should have joined J10 project at the first beginning, they paid because they don't want to take risks. High risk means higher returns.

PAF is ambitious than anyone can images.

As many Chinese military suppliers joking: PAF is the toughest customer with least to pay..

Its a pity, PAF wasted precious time and never genuinely intended or thought of purchasing new combat platforms. They keep overhauling vintage aircraft over and over again putting precious life of pilots at risk. We lost pilots due to crashes of these vintage air crafts. This is criminal negligence but PAF leadership was always too high to revolve around F-16s only. Even after the US showed PAF the middle finger on F-16 deal the air chief insisted that things will work out. I hope common sense prevails and we replace these Mirages, F-7s etc with new air crafts.

Look at JF17 in numbers and the limited budget, you will feel much better.

Let's being realistic.

Why Pakistan can churn out JF17 within some 10+ years with China support and can't produce anything when you were friend with USA in the last 60 years? I think you can tell the difference between real friends and back-scratching.

Just look at how Uncle Sam is gonna bleed India white in the future.

 

[araz]

I can understand they are very old aircraft. But take example of B-52s. Those air frames that bombed Vietnam in mid 60s are still flying.

So old shouldnt be such a big problem although older planes are more accident prone. Why doesnt Pakistan begin to buy old Mirage 2000s? That way some gap in capability could be bridged.

The way Pakistan is going, inshallah better days seem to be ahead

I guess there are different stresses for fighter jets and bombers which is why metal fatigue is more prevalent in fighters than bombers.
The last time PAF Atried to buy the M2K5s from France the price quoted was 60 million per plane. So tbe French were in no mood to bargain even for old frames.
On a separate note why is this thread open when this same discussion is being held in the Mirage thread. @Mods can we please merge this with the Mirage thread.
A

 

[帅的一匹]

I guess there are different stresses for fighter jets and bombers which is why metal fatigue is more prevalent in fighters than bombers.
The last time PAF Atried to buy the M2K5s from France the price quoted was 60 million per plane. So tbe French were in no mood to bargain even for old frames.
On a separate note why is this thread open when this same discussion is being held in the Mirage thread. @Mods can we please merge this with the Mirage thread.
A

Because French knows your choice or alternatives are limited, so they won't be willing to give you discount. That's a scam.

I would rather pay 80 millions for Su35 than 60 millions for M2K5.

 

[araz]

Because French knows your choice or alternatives are limited, so they won't be willing to give you discount. That's a scam.

I would rather pay 80 millions for Su35 than 60 millions for M2K5.

The SUs will end up costing even more to establish infrastructure. Now it would be a different ball game if J11/16s were available.
A

 

[khanmubashir]

NO OFFENCE but THIS is THE REAL state of PAF IN 2018

100 mirage 5 which are between 40 & 50 Years old and are rightly called 3rd generation fighters

100 brand new block 1/2 thunders = budget single engine lightweight fighter with limited range & payload

52 block a/b F16 3 decades old now going through MLU

18 brand new F16/52 ..... the single most potent squadron and most expensive and most dangerous aircraft in PAF.
( PAF actually needed 100 of these NOT JUST 18)

Finally 130+ chinease MIG21 or F7


Ducking
Diving
Thinking outside the box

PAF budget is about 15% OF what Indian AIR FORCE enjoys

You REALLY NEED TO pull a RABBIT out of THE BOX

100+ jf17 at 25 jets per year by this rate fleet doubles in next four years years in next 10 years old mirages and f7 will be replaced by jf17 block3
By that time few j31 modified would also be procured most likely and first prototypes of azm project would also be flying and judging from jf17 program speed perhaps a few production units
Note azm is most likely the JV with Turk tfx
And would be all under budget
And Indian jv for fgfa with Russia is on ice and u have just begun your tender for 136jets
It would take several years for 36 rafeals to arrive from previous contract

 

[帅的一匹]

100+ jf17 at 25 jets per year by this rate fleet doubles in next four years years in next 10 years old mirages and f7 will be replaced by jf17 block3
By that time few j31 modified would also be procured most likely and first prototypes of azm project would also be flying and judging from jf17 program speed perhaps a few production units
Note azm is most likely the JV with Turk tfx
And would be all under budget
And Indian jv for fgfa with Russia is on ice and u have just begun your tender for 136jets
It would take several years for 36 rafeals to arrive from previous contract

AZM is still a mystery.

And TFX is a mystery more.

By the maiden flight of TFX, J20 powered by TVC WS15 will fly all over the sky. PAF will never bet something on uncertainty. TFX is just a bargain chips to ask China bring out the best on AZM. Nothing more and nothing less.

Time can wait, but PAF can't wait.

The future of TFX depends on how long Erdogan can stay in power.

Only an ambitious leader will have an ambitious project.

 

[Trisonics]

What a waste of a good thread. It's always the same plot here on PDF. This should have been all about this plane that has served you well, the hardships, the triumphs, the hard working people that kept it going all these years. There are always stories of jugaad and other innovations that never reach us.. these are stories I always want to listen to..

 

[帅的一匹]

Too much uncertainty.

 

[khanmubashir]

AZM is still a mystery.

And TFX is a mystery more.

By the maiden flight of TFX, J20 powered by TVC WS15 will fly all over the sky. PAF will never bet something on uncertainty. TFX is just a bargain chips to ask China bring out the best on AZM. Nothing more and nothing less.

Time can wait, but PAF can't wait.

The future of TFX depends on how long Erdogan can stay in power.

Only an ambitious leader will have an ambitious project.

Pak will procure a few j31 as would Turks buying the f35
Pak anounced azm after near an year of public reports Pak offered to join tfx so it's most likely linked with tfx and Turks already have done alot of work on tfx from buying 5 th gen fighter research from Saab to making new avionics at aselsan etc

 

[帅的一匹]

Pak will procure a few j31 as would Turks buying the f35
Pak anounced azm after near an year of public reports Pak offered to join tfx so it's most likely linked with tfx and Turks already have done alot of work on tfx from buying 5 th gen fighter research from Saab to making new avionics at aselsan etc

Your deduction is absolutely wrong, PAF won't buy Fc31.

You are offered don't mean you will join. That's two different concept.

And TFX is working with BAE, not Saab.