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This Destroyer Concept Is a Tank Battalion’s Worst Nightmare

if Brimstone has no Jammer it is completely useless against Trophy Afganit or ADS...even with a jammer systems like ADS use several different detection sources which makes it even worse to get jammed they are able to detect and intercept mutliple attacks from different directions... so a tankbattalion fitted with state of the art hard kill system has nothing to worry...

24 x 100.000 = 2.4million if fired against tankbattalion with hard kill systems you just burn money

with more and more effective hard kill systems added the AGTM RPG area comes to a end

I got all of your post and agreed to it, except this one part :

"24 x 100.000 = 2.4million if fired against tankbattalion with hard kill systems you just burn money"

I didn't understand the million part.
 
I got all of your post and agreed to it, except this one part :

"24 x 100.000 = 2.4million if fired against tankbattalion with hard kill systems you just burn money"

I didn't understand the million part.

if one tracked carrier fire its 24 Brimestone rockets and each one cost 100.000 british pounds (someon claimed in this topic befor 100.000 to 175.000 british pounds) that are 2.4 million wasted money
 
if Brimstone has no Jammer it is completely useless against Trophy Afganit or ADS...even with a jammer systems like ADS use several different detection sources which makes it even worse to get jammed they are able to detect and intercept mutliple attacks from different directions... so a tankbattalion fitted with state of the art hard kill system has nothing to worry...

24 x 100.000 = 2.4million if fired against tankbattalion with hard kill systems you just burn money

with more and more effective hard kill systems added the AGTM RPG area comes to a end

I dont think ATGM and RPG ERA will come to an end. They would just need a new type of warhead. Wait and see, necessity is the mother of invention.:dirol:
 
I dont think ATGM and RPG ERA will come to an end. They would just need a new type of warhead. Wait and see, necessity is the mother of invention.:dirol:
actually the real development in ground forces are from far west and US with their new hyper sonic projectiles for armored guns. i imagine that is the future of ground based warfare.
it's been a long time that no one cared about ground forces on the contrary to air force, this new munitions will bring the attentions to the ground.
 
By Kyle Mizokami
Sep 5, 2019

2019-09-04-mbda-showcases-tank-destroyer-vehicle-with-pgz-at-mspo-2019-c-mbda-2-1567707403.jpg

MBDA
  • A European/Polish tank destroyer could very well become the deadliest weapon system on a future battlefield.
  • The tank destroyer packs up to 24 Brimstone anti-tank missiles, each of which uses radar to search for and destroy enemy armor.
  • A single vehicle could cripple enemy tank columns, rendering them incapable of attacking and stopping an invasion dead in its tracks.

A new tank destroyer concept, built for the Polish Army, could become the most effective tank killer in any army. The unnamed vehicle is armed with up to 24 Brimstone anti-tank missiles and can unleash a salvo of tank-hunting missiles, knocking out enemy tank units it can’t actually see.

Poland is a country sandwiched between military giants. In World War II, the country was invaded by both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, and was pushed into joining the Warsaw Pact for the duration of the Cold War. Today Poland forms a major part of NATO’s eastern flank and is vulnerable to Russia’s ground forces, particularly Moscow’s large fleet of main battle tanks.

Recently, Poland issued a requirement for a new tank destroyer vehicle. Tank destroyers are armored vehicles designed with firepower and mobility in mind, meant to quickly take up positions ahead of enemy tank columns and decimate them with long-range guns or missiles. Although sometimes similar to tanks in appearance, tank destroyers sacrifice armor for the ability to quickly plug holes in friendly anti-tank defenses.

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2019-09-04-mbda-showcases-tank-destroyer-vehicle-with-pgz-at-mspo-2019-c-mbda-1567707443.jpg

Polish Tank Destroyer concept on a BMP-1 chassis.

The new Polish tank killer is a collaboration between Polish PZG Companies and European (mostly UK) MBDA. Concept art shows the system mounted on a Cold War-era BMP-1 infantry fighting vehicle chassis with a box launcher holding 12 Brimstone missiles. The vehicle is also equipped with an American .50-caliber heavy machine gun mounted in a remote weapons turret.

Another depiction shows the system mounted on an unidentified armored vehicle chassis. This shows the system mounted in three boxes of eight missiles each, for a total of 24 Brimstone missiles.

picture-shows-a-brimstone-missile-a-rocket-propelled-radar-news-photo-499714488-1567707867.jpg

A Brimstone missile about to be loaded on a Tornado attack aircraft during 2015 air strikes on Islamic State forces.
PHILIP COBURNGETTY IMAGES
Brimstone is a medium range air-to-surface missile system developed by the U.K. The missile looks similar to the American Hellfire anti-tank missile but differs in key ways. Like Hellfire, Brimstone uses a millimetric wave radar seeker to locate and identify armor. This gives the new Polish tank destroyer the ability to engage enemy tanks at ranges of up to 12 kilometers (or about 7.45 miles).

Unlike Hellfire, Brimstone has an even more interesting indirect fire capability. Brimstone can be launched towards a defined target area and will then locate and attack any enemy tanks and armored vehicles it finds.

If Brimstone proves just 90 percent effective (MBDA itself claims 98.7 percent effectiveness in combat) a Brimstone strike could destroy 22 out of 50 tanks and armored fighting vehicles in a Russian battalion tactical group (BTG). That’s enough to render the unit combat ineffective. Two crippled BTGs will render the parent unit, a Russian tank brigade, incapable of offensive combat.



russian-t-90-tanks-take-position-before-firing-in-kubinka-news-photo-837189058-1567707712.jpg

Russian T-90 tanks on exercise at Kubinka.
AFP CONTRIBUTORGETTY IMAGES


So far, no other country has a weapon such as the proposed Polish tank destroyer. The U.S. Army disbanded its tank destroyer units at the end of the Cold War, and even the AH-64 Apache attack helicopter can only carry a maximum of 16 Hellfire anti-tank missiles. Apache helicopters are also more or less limited to line of sight attacks.

The MBDA tank destroyer concept represents a powerful capability in which even a handful of armored vehicles could turn an advancing tank army into scrap in a matter of seconds.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a28928680/tank-destroyer-concept/

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actually the real development in ground forces are from far west and US with their new hyper sonic projectiles for armored guns. i imagine that is the future of ground based warfare.
it's been a long time that no one cared about ground forces on the contrary to air force, this new munitions will bring the attentions to the ground.


Hyper sonic speed is
Mach 5 to 10
3836 to 7673 mph
6174 to 12359 km/h
1715 to 3450 m/s

1750 to 2000m/s is the speed of current kenetic energy projectiles they are all already hypersonic
today hard kill systems can intercept incoming threats up to 2400m/s and development goes for 3000+ m/s

So ATGM and RPG area is over.... at least if facing modern hard kill systems....

Trophy intorduced in 2011... since that date no vehicle fitted with Trophy lost... ATGM RPG useless waste of resources if fired at them
 
Radar to detect enemy tanks and then using missiles to take them out is a novel idea... It is the future and must be looked into...

Domestic coproduction is far more desirable than off shelf systems
 
Hyper sonic speed is
Mach 5 to 10
3836 to 7673 mph
6174 to 12359 km/h
1715 to 3450 m/s

1750 to 2000m/s is the speed of current kenetic energy projectiles they are all already hypersonic
today hard kill systems can intercept incoming threats up to 2400m/s and development goes for 3000+ m/s

So ATGM and RPG area is over.... at least if facing modern hard kill systems....

Trophy intorduced in 2011... since that date no vehicle fitted with Trophy lost... ATGM RPG useless waste of resources if fired at them

What will kill this race ATGM vs hard kill systems.... the cost of a single missle
if current models are already in the 100.000 to 200.000€ cost range... and future hyper sonic missles with needed jammer systems and even more technology needed will become even more expansive.... one missle shoot money gone.
Hard Kill Systems can be reloaded with relativly cheap charges and can interecept if needed hundret times.
 
There are also small cheap cruise missiles like the one used against the saudi oil infrastructure, but armed with sensor fuzed weapons style skeets. This can be a good way to launch multiple projectiles against a single target to assure its destruction while the platform that carries the weapon stays relatively cheap. The key is offloading the sensing to a uav that can relay accurate targeting data to the relatively cheap swarm of cruise missiles/drones.
 
There are also small cheap cruise missiles like the one used against the saudi oil infrastructure, but armed with sensor fuzed weapons style skeets. This can be a good way to launch multiple projectiles against a single target to assure its destruction while the platform that carries the weapon stays relatively cheap. The key is offloading the sensing to a uav that can relay accurate targeting data to the relatively cheap swarm of cruise missiles/drones.

problem is modern hard kill systems are already able to intercept multiple attacks from different direction.
Next to that the world is working on laser systems that could intercept such threats...
Rheinmetall already has proven in life fire that it could intercept with laser a rpg or motar attack on a camp were many rounds in a short time needs to be killed
 
problem is modern hard kill systems are already able to intercept multiple attacks from different direction.
Next to that the world is working on laser systems that could intercept such threats...
Rheinmetall already has proven in life fire that it could intercept with laser a rpg or motar attack on a camp were many rounds in a short time needs to be killed
Even the hard kill systems have sensors that are vulnerable to other forms of attack, before a kinetic swarm attack. An artillery strike with an EMP or some other means of partially or totally destroy the radars and optical sensors could be enough to open up arc in the defenses of the tank, which the cruise missiles could exploit in a kinetic attack.
 
Even the hard kill systems have sensors that are vulnerable to other forms of attack, before a kinetic swarm attack. An artillery strike with an EMP or some other means of partially or totally destroy the radars and optical sensors could be enough to open up arc in the defenses of the tank, which the cruise missiles could exploit in a kinetic attack.

yes u can jam radar systems ... for that reason ADS use many different type of sensors to counter incomeing threat... not only radar... missels have a limited ammount of room and weight that they could carry if they should still be usefull with a big enough warhead... as I said hard kill systems force to build bigger and much more expansive and complex ATGM with no gurantee that they achive a kill for the money they cost..

If a single ammo load of a "Destroyer" today cost between 3 to 5million €... think about what a company or a battalion cost... and that with the current generation of ATGM that are not able to overcome state of the art hard kill systems like Trophy Afganit or ADS ...in my eyes this is clearly a dead horse...
 
Hyper sonic speed is
Mach 5 to 10
3836 to 7673 mph
6174 to 12359 km/h
1715 to 3450 m/s

1750 to 2000m/s is the speed of current kenetic energy projectiles they are all already hypersonic
today hard kill systems can intercept incoming threats up to 2400m/s and development goes for 3000+ m/s

So ATGM and RPG area is over.... at least if facing modern hard kill systems....

Trophy intorduced in 2011... since that date no vehicle fitted with Trophy lost... ATGM RPG useless waste of resources if fired at them
well current munitions are barely HS and i am not sure if APSs can kill tungsten projectiles.
also i do not think RPG era is over, first because not all vehicles gonna have APS and second not all targets are armored units. however i agree that ATGM are getting useless that's why recently some countries develop suicide mini robots.
how ever my original point was about how revolutionary the HSP tech is. it can potentially change the balance of a war. a tank can easily turn into an air defense, long range artillery or a long range rank destroyer.
 
well current munitions are barely HS and i am not sure if APSs can kill tungsten projectiles.
also i do not think RPG era is over, first because not all vehicles gonna have APS and second not all targets are armored units. however i agree that ATGM are getting useless that's why recently some countries develop suicide mini robots.
how ever my original point was about how revolutionary the HSP tech is. it can potentially change the balance of a war. a tank can easily turn into an air defense, long range artillery or a long range rank destroyer.

hypersonic start at 1715m/sec... that is a Mach 5

Hypersonic range from Mach 5 to Mach 10

if a round like the old DM53 fired from the 120L55 gun at 1800m/s that is Hyper Sonic speed
 
hypersonic start at 1715m/sec... that is a Mach 5

Hypersonic range from Mach 5 to Mach 10

if a round like the old DM53 fired from the 120L55 gun at 1800m/s that is Hyper Sonic speed
sir the US project name is hyper sonic projectile or HSP and it's for arming existing platforms. the cannons right now fire lower hyper sonic munitions, the HSP probably will have higher hyper sonic speed.
 
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