The Un-Intended Eye Opener Of 27th Feb:---

[BATMAN]

We never wanted to escalate things but still we conveyed our msg

I hold opinion; that this escalation theory is wrong.
If India had the capacity /courage to escalate, they would have escalated in 1999, and you know better than me where we stood militarily in 1999, especially airforce.

 

[Shabi1]

Firstly, not interested in Media as have been taking my sides' fanboys, both media and otherwise, on too. Too many self styled experts around.

Secondly, you might want to consider looking at the effect on a missile detonating due to proximity fuse on an Air to Air Missile's seeker and motor assembly. (Proximity fuse on R-73 is a fact)

Your comments on the undermentioned (old) photos?

View attachment 548440

View attachment 548441

I am sure you can make out that this is a seeker head of, perhaps, AIM-9 Sidewinder?

I may be wrong about the missile type in the above example, I concede.

Difference is R-73 seekers are intact and this one from downing a UAV is clearly exploded with fragment damage, AIM-9 no comparison.
https://defence.pk/pdf/media/iaf-uav-shot-down-by-pakistani-f-16-falcon.8259/

 

[BATMAN]

Its going to take much more than that to invade Kashmir, sacrifice thousands and thousands of Pakistani soldiers. Freeing Kashmir is another story and comes way after that.

Why are you arguing something, i never said?
However, i have counter argument to the your statement.
India has already killed thousands of Pakistani soldiers in past 10 years, they will continue to kill Pakistanis on daily basis, blow up Pakistani infrastructure, smuggle their goods into Pakistan.
India is a plague for Pakistan.
Only Iran don't want free Kashmir, we can't let Iran hijack Pakistani ideology, after it has hijacked Pakistani state.

 

[batmannow]

Maybe Indians will do another false flag in Kashmir to put this plan to action.

Thy hve selected thier targets , which are rawalpindi , karachi , bhawalpur or again the same target

I understand that your concept of airforce will probably have that version of F-16.

Cheers and out.

@Oscar

I am pretty much clued up now as to what has transpired. Had to deflated few puffed up members of my side ... so popped in to deflate a few here.

Only thing - for what happened on 27 Feb 2019 - I think both PAF and IAF need a serious introspection, the former a slightly more (by hundredths of a percentage point) in terms of magnitude, as something has happened that has put it between a rock and a hard place. Same for IAF.

Meanwhile, enjoy the show of the fanboys

Opreationally & techincly and tacticly , PAF is far superior force then IAF which was showen on feb 27?
But then question comes in why should PAF keep itself on the same ladder , why not go up further more which they will some day but if they do now , it will save a lot of priceless lives thts what mastan khan and me our stand is , he does it in his style which is a bit odd sometimes but true

 

[BATMAN]

India may chose whatever words that they might---but when they cross the LOC or the border---with fighter aircraft and declared intentions---then that is an act of war---.

At least that's how a current era war starts practically... not that Indian soldiers would be seen marching into Lahore /Sialkot and radioing their airforce, that now it's safe to fly above.

 

[MastanKhan]

People who think PAF is incompetent on 26 Feb should also think who is incompetent on 27 Feb when PAF shows their competency.

Competency doesn't change in a day.

Hi,

Youngman---have courage to speak directly---.

Incompetence and decision making on the spot and being prepared for the enemy and having a plan for it are two different things---.

You still having a hard time understanding it---PAF had made all the pictures ready to show to the public that they had a lock on the enemy the firt night and made it run away---.

The problem happened this time was that there was a major hue and cry from the public---major doubts were cast---even from the junior officers---who were really upset.

If that was not the case---the Paf would have satisfied us with some photos---.

 

[Silicon0000]

Hi,

Youngman---have courage to speak directly---.

Incompetence and decision making on the spot and being prepared for the enemy and having a plan for it are two different things---.

You still having a hard time understanding it---PAF had made all the pictures ready to show to the public that they had a lock on the enemy the firt night and made it run away---.

The problem happened this time was that there was a major hue and cry from the public---major doubts were cast---even from the junior officers---who were really upset.

If that was not the case---the Paf would have satisfied us with some photos---.

First, I am not arguing you or some particular person, instead the argument. Not interested in arguing someone specific. I respect others views also.

Secondly, yes I know the difference between incompetency and decision making and I am saying PAF is competent and deliver whatever decision is made.

And the decision is made by people who have greater awareness and vision that's we don't have, specially the awareness part.

My English is not good but I think you can understand what I am trying to say.

 

[batmannow]

It's 2002 stand off between Pak and India where Pak shoot down Indian UAV in punjab. It's also have wreck pics of UAV too I guess if u look archives of PDF here u will get pic of UAV wreck as well. Pak army no longer used these uniforms as wells

And what it has to do with the thread ?

 

[BATMAN]

And the decision is made by people who have greater awareness and vision that's we don't have, specially the awareness part.

Apologies in advance, but... Our decision makers don't have the capacity to see beyond their seats. India had actually announced war on Pakistan, when they built first dam on rivers flowing in to Pakistan! and the list is long. Have you ever seen Pakistani reaction on a single occasion.
This time around it was an old school war and our leaders are refusing to accept it war! are they normal?
What is beyond abnormal is that, Indian PM had given Pakistan dead line to return pilot and after return, they had even refused to thank.

IAF was surprised in the nastiest way that F-16's were used and scored kills. Their Lobby in Washington had failed

In such case even people in US administration would have been surprised.

 

[Critical]

1) But in such case location where the said part was recovered becomes important. There are other pictures from earlier in the day that also show the seekers to present in same location.

View attachment 548448

2) Also another important consideration. Look at AIM-9 seeker; it has jagged edges. While R73/R77 seekers are broken cleanly at edges at module boundaries. Now this could be attributed to other reasons, but definitely something worth considering.

More clear ver maybe

 

[Mentee]

india used the wording "preemptive strikes" against terrorists threats ..... Please try understanding the gravity of that. If that night Pakistan had responded it would have lead to a complete failure /disaster for Pakistan, an inexperienced government looking to secure finances would have crumbled, Pakistan would be facing international backlash and would be going through a political turmoil with frustrated citizens. Our closest allies would have left us alone in that mess. The world would have assumed that Pakistan tried protecting terrorists. No one next morning would have bothered looking at where the indian bombs fell and whether they did any damage or not .... indian media would have made it known "We did preemptive strikes on terrorists and Pakistan tried defending them". The rest we all know what would have unfolded for us.

However, what happened was ALLAH's blessing and aid ...... DG ISPR before the indian media could start its victory campaign, announced it himself that Pakistan airspace was violated and bombs were dropped in random places. Now try what impact this all carried ... Pakistanis may have been feeling frustrated and defeated, but world came to know that india did an act of aggression, this gave some breathing space to newly formed government and grab the opportunity, IK's international standing came in handy, and world slowly accepted that Pakistan reserves the right to respond and retaliate ......... we got an excuse .... and we were able to prove that there were no terrorists and indians lied ...... we managed to isolate india and keep it allies away from supporting it further .... the key is you build a narrative before you go drop bombs near military installations of another country ........ in absence of a war.

If you have missed reading key indians here ..... their narrative was "We have this justification of going after terrorists in your territory ........ what is yours to attack ours?" .... I am grateful to AL MIGHTY it happened in the best possible way for Pakistan and world accepted our narrative. Kashmir got highlighted again as a flashpoint, modi feels frustrated unable to teach Pakistan a lesson for his election campaign, Bippin is missing with his threats of teaching Pakistan a lesson. Russians, Chinese are confident that they have a reliable partner. Minions in neighborhood who before washing their rears in the morning ... would start blaming Pakistan .... have gone into hiding. We may not see those repeated celebrations of 1971 for sometime.

We had a cricketing event during all this conflict, final held in Pakistan .... And Mahtir Mohammad and jets of our friends are here for March 23rd. If this isn't enough for Pakistanis to be content with .... then they really need to seek forgiveness from ALL MIGHTY.

Pakistan Zindabad aur Hamary dost Paindabad .... LONG LIVE PAKISTAN and OUR FRIENDS.




Do I know you?

I hope you have been well. May ALLAH be with you.

Mohtaram the real enemy is in their society ..... If you are still wondering who has called to ban international cricketers from IPL who are also part of PSL ....

G its indian public.



Sir g. ALLAH da wasta nay thora jiya hath hola rakho ..... please at least appreciate that they (Pakistan) had knowledge of whereabouts of the highest possible target. I don't know if that counts as preparedness or not.

Hain? Chacha g what if those spikes actually made a hit on a civilian infrastructure and decimated it - - - - - - - - ?

Iam pretty sure the cap team also didn't had any idea about the intensity of damage on land until they parked in the hangers after letting the intruders go scot free.

It wasn't an ordinary voilation of airspace by any measure

 

[Critical]

Firstly, not interested in Media as have been taking my sides' fanboys, both media and otherwise, on too. Too many self styled experts around.

Secondly, you might want to consider looking at the effect on a missile detonating due to proximity fuse on an Air to Air Missile's seeker and motor assembly. (Proximity fuse on R-73 is a fact)

Your comments on the undermentioned (old) photos?

View attachment 548440

View attachment 548441

I am sure you can make out that this is a seeker head of, perhaps, AIM-9 Sidewinder?

I may be wrong about the missile type in the above example, I concede.

The 4th missile you are referring to was still attached to wing pylon. Images are already posted by pdf members

 

[Code_Geass]

Which possible airbase, did they took off ?

As far Indian cries goes, i heard them complaining only about F-16 D.

hey i not knowledgeable as most of you guys are but i heard that someone in sargodha air base being promoted for the events happened that day.. don't have details though

 

[crankthatskunk]

Hi,

Youngman---have courage to speak directly---.

Incompetence and decision making on the spot and being prepared for the enemy and having a plan for it are two different things---.

You still having a hard time understanding it---PAF had made all the pictures ready to show to the public that they had a lock on the enemy the firt night and made it run away---.

The problem happened this time was that there was a major hue and cry from the public---major doubts were cast---even from the junior officers---who were really upset.

If that was not the case---the Paf would have satisfied us with some photos---.

@MastanKhan , I agree with you, I have already stated it in my yesterday post, on 26th during the attack by the Indians PAF acted politically not militarily. They let the Indians run away, despite having them on sight and locked. They should have downed 5/10 IAF fighters. But they chickened out because the higher command didn't wanted to escalate war. When someone attack your sovereignty, it has already started war. Not to act is cowardice.
PA has given lollipop to the people far too long. It has to stop.

 

[Signalian]

In such case even people in US administration would have been surprised.

I think USA already knows how Israelis and Pakistanis exploit full potential of F-16.

Block-15 is a really extraordinary dog fighter. In 1980's, Israelis gave it a good repo in ground attack role in Iraq and Pakistanis made full use of it to bring down Soviet and Afghan aircrafts. India got insecure with 40 F-16 fighters that IAF ordered two types of aircrafts (Mirage-2000 and Mig-29) in response. Mirage 2000 for strike and Mig-29 for air combat, where as PAF covered both roles with F-16.

There are some small factors in F-16's design itself that gives it advantage in dog fights. It has a lower angle of attack, which gives it less drag and conversely it's fuselage lift is very high. F-16's horizontal tail is strongly loaded, assisting in more lift. This helps it maintain higher energy at low altitude dog fights or WVR Dog fights. It can pull high G's (depends on load carried also), so the pilot gets a lot of flexibility in maneuvering the aircraft, taking it to its limits without concerns.

Being single engine aircraft, F-16 was still found to be a good BVR fighter. For high altitude BVR combat, the upgraded Radar or the AWACS gives situational awareness, Link-16 data link is very robust (its rumored to be two way), the Aim-120 C5 is hard to defend against and F-16 has very good eccm capabilities.

You can see the biggest advantage that F-16 got is that it was built to be a nimble dog fighter, so its WVR domain was already covered, where as other aircrafts (F-14, F-15, F-18, SU 30 etc) were usually built for BVR combat or heavy strike roles. F-16 lacked at both these (BVR and variety of strike role) at first, but got them covered as Block 40/42 and 50/52 were strike oriented aircrafts, and capable of carrying different ground/naval strike armament. In the mean time, it was capable of firing Aim-7 sparrow BVR missile, however became more lethal through Aim-120 AMRAAM. So it now covers all roles of combat efficiently than other aircrafts: WVR, BVR and Strike. It does lack the range than other heavier aircrafts but it delivers the punch for being smaller than others.
You can imagine it like a little terrier in a dog fight, who never runs out of energy when fighting with a big dog and take down the big dog through its raw stamina of jumping, showing up from left right front behind and snapping with sharp bites everywhere.

In any air combat, starting from BVR combat at high altitude at long ranges, its first look and first shoot, F-16 can fire its AMRAAM and when the surviving aircrafts meet in WVR arena, F-16 will hold advantage and make the remaining kills to finish off the fight.

In terms of strike role, Block 40/42 carried targeting pods, FLIR and were night strike capable. Block 50/52 and 52+ further improved and were capable of carrying more strike weaponry. The Block-15's flown by PAF were not lacking just BVR missiles but also were incapable of firing many strike weapons (A2G missiles) apart from carrying older avionics and sensors. Through MLU, the Block-15's have been brought on par with Block 52+, barring CFT's and engine.

F-16 is truly a multi role aircraft. Hopefully, JF-17 will reach the same stage or better soon. F-16 pilots know that the jet they fly holds a lot of strengths against its potential adversaries, which makes them very confident to fly missions in it. IAF has trained well against F-16's from different countries for taking on PAF F-16's, and now know that F-16 has got multitude of strengths and very few weaknesses. In past decades, IAF faced F-16's carrying 6 x Aim-9 , where as now its known that F-16 will be carrying 2-4 Aim-120 C5.