The U.S.-Pakistan F-16 fiasco

[Aamir Hussain]

"let us who uses whom there. Knowing a little bit about the Indian mindset, I have a hunch that US would end up holding the short end of the stick."

Aamir Hussain sahab--The U.S. found another sleeping partner like Israel i.e. India. Considering the past track record, the U.S. always ended up in a short term relationship but India is a different game. Pakistan can jump through the window to catch Russians which will certainly help us in Afghanistan and---

Trust me on that--American investors will flood Indian markets. That relationship is real---concerns on both sides--both will use each other--However, the same strategic depth applies to India as it does to Israel.

Israel is all together another case for US. It is not just about Middle East but I think more to do with their influence in the American mainstream. This all started with the discovery of Buchenwald and Auschwitz concentration camps by the American troop in WWII. The Jews in US have intelligently played upon the conscience of the American nation for not doing enough and standing idle and on the side lines when Hitler was doing this. They play on this on and off through establishment of trusts, permanent exhibitions in major US cities, and off course the use of Hollywood. The three wars with Israel have also helped keep the guilt bit alive in US. Support for Israel is more deeper issue for US national psyche than may be Japan, Germany, Korea etc.

India is no natural partner for US. It is just that US economy is over dependent on China and they need to get first a replacement for cheap imports, and high tech exports (China turned out to be not so big a market as the US thought at one point -- they intelligently mixed their high tech imports from US/EU/Russia) and secondly, drag down China in a needless arms race with India.

The interesting thing would be to see how China & India protect their regional interests while sharing a common neighborhood.

 

[SekrutYakhni]

Israel is all together another case for US. It is not just about Middle East but I think more to do with their influence in the American mainstream. This all started with the discovery of Buchenwald and Auschwitz concentration camps by the American troop in WWII. The Jews in US have intelligently played upon the conscience of the American nation for not doing enough and standing idle and on the side lines when Hitler was doing this. They play on this on and off through establishment of trusts, permanent exhibitions in major US cities, and off course the use of Hollywood. The three wars with Israel have also helped keep the guilt bit alive in US. Support for Israel is more deeper issue for US national psyche than may be Japan, Germany, Korea etc.

India is no natural partner for US. It is just that US economy is over dependent on China and they need to get first a replacement for cheap imports, and high tech exports (China turned out to be not so big a market as the US thought at one point -- they intelligently mixed their high tech imports from US/EU/Russia) and secondly, drag down China in a needless arms race with India.

The interesting thing would be to see how China & India protect their regional interests while sharing a common neighborhood.

"This all started with the discovery of Buchenwald and Auschwitz concentration camps by the American troop in WWII. The Jews in US have intelligently played upon the conscience of the American nation for not doing enough and standing idle and on the side lines when Hitler was doing this. They play on this on and off through establishment of trusts, permanent exhibitions in major US cities, and off course the use of Hollywood. The three wars with Israel have also helped keep the guilt bit alive in US. Support for Israel is more deeper issue for US national psyche than may be Japan, Germany, Korea etc."

Jews were smart enough to play with the masses, unlike Pakistani Americans, particularly civilians, who failed to play a role in creating a strong lobby--you could blame economy, education etc on that--Movies, culture etc as you mentioned earlier.
India will sail on the same boat because a) America needs a bull dog in Asia. b) Consumer market of American products. c) Good relationship of India and Israel d) India also needs hi tech products. yada yada yada

Indian people prefer Russia or America but they have no idea of what is coming for them in future--Someday, Pakistan might get that status!

It will take time but India, Israel and the U.S. will form a strong bond, trust me on that, and if not, ride the waive i.e. time.

Yes, everyone uses each other but the relationship of India and America will not stop on 'fulfilling each others demand'--rather a long term relation is on the paper.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Thank you for you and other friends of Pakistan. Your frank and open some of our differences, I think that is very good. If we can not open and frank discussion of our differences, our relationship will be a major worry. China and Pakistan have extensive common interests, as interest he is enough for us, I do not worry about interest, but unwarranted suspicion and hidden discontent may ruin our relationship. The Chinese government has a carefully our differences in public, so in fact, as the Chinese, most do not understand it, I hope the Chinese and Pakistanis, as friends and brothers, to have a more open dialogue, because our relations will be more comprehensive and closer in the future. Simple look-out just need a simple feeling, but it is already not enough for the present and future. Let us together with some of our differences to come together. Just remember, the Chinese people love Pakistan, which is not false, the Chinese people are willing and Pakistan to develop a stable and deep friendship, which is not false.

Again, appreciate your candor.

Thank you for a very mature post sir! I am glad that you understand that my view point vis a vis China would always be from the Pakistani perspective -- as it should be.

I have known about the public and not so public differences between China and Pakistan for long and as is the Asian way -- they have been dealt at the diplomatic level and not in the front pages of Dawn, NYT or the Chinese equivalent of it. That is the Asian way.

There are a lot of convergent interests between China & Pakistan and if they can help each other achieve success without harming the long term interests of each nation -- than so be it. We are lucky to have convergent interest with one of the largest stake holders in Asia.

But let the truth come out -- I am afraid China has at times for reasons best known to them played a wait and see game when they could have come in with massive support and propped Pakistan when it needed a steady hand. But then we also do not know how our Generals/politicians have been behaving behind the scenes.

I do not think there is any suspicion between Pakistan or China - at any level.

Once again thanks for understanding -- thanks from a friend!

 

[DV RULES]

Self deleted

 

[DV RULES]

In my point of view there are no relations with US, China, India, Israel & other countries but agreements, contracts and that is all.

We haven't permanent allies and permanent enemies, permanent only our national interests.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Thank you for a very mature post sir! I am glad that you understand that my view point vis a vis China would always be from the Pakistani perspective -- as it should be.

I have known about the public and not so public differences between China and Pakistan for long and as is the Asian way -- they have been dealt at the diplomatic level and not in the front pages of Dawn, NYT or the Chinese equivalent of it. That is the Asian way.

There are a lot of convergent interests between China & Pakistan and if they can help each other achieve success without harming the long term interests of each nation -- than so be it. We are lucky to have convergent interest with one of the largest stake holders in Asia.

But let the truth come out -- I am afraid China has at times for reasons best known to them played a wait and see game when they could have come in with massive support and propped Pakistan when it needed a steady hand. But then we also do not know how our Generals/politicians have been behaving behind the scenes.

I do not think there is any suspicion between Pakistan or China - at any level.

Once again thanks for understanding -- thanks from a friend!

Even if true brothers, there will be problems are inevitable, as the two countries, even if we have problems is not surprising that, as long as we handle it correctly, there will be no big problem. I think we just need to be more careful in the core interests of both sides, the other is just some small problems. Considering that there is a complex situation in the past, even if there are some problems in this, let us pass it, as long as there have not in the future. This is not only Pakistan but also China, which is equal. In any case, I want to be more open to our differences, the relationship between China and Pakistan should be more healthy and more frank, I personally believe it is more in line with our interests.

 

[huzihaidao12]

In my point of view there are no relations with US, China, India, Israel & other countries but agreements, contracts and that is all.

We haven't permanent allies and permanent enemies, permanent only our national interests.

As long as not to be blindfolded by short-term interests, in general, it is right.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

"let us who uses whom there. Knowing a little bit about the Indian mindset, I have a hunch that US would end up holding the short end of the stick."

Aamir Hussain sahab--The U.S. found another sleeping partner like Israel i.e. India. Considering the past track record, the U.S. always ended up in a short term relationship but India is a different game. Pakistan can jump through the window to catch Russians which will certainly help us in Afghanistan and---

Trust me on that--American investors will flood Indian markets. That relationship is real---concerns on both sides--both will use each other--However, the same strategic depth applies to India as it does to Israel.

If India grows beyond a certain point -- rest assured US and Indian interests will start clashing and will be on a divergent path. Some of the issues that can come up would be:

1. Access to energy and mineral resources and raw material. Specially linked to the next point.
2. India growing from a low tech, low cost supplier to a competing player for technology products in emerging markets.

It is but natural that US Indian interests will clash some time in future depending upon the growth rates, direction of the growth path and the relationship with Russia and China.

It is now quite apparent (Even in some US circles this is acknowledged) in the case of Israel that it is not that US which found an accommodating bed fellow but the other way round!

Yes you are right that the Jewish groups and think tanks linked with Israel have very cleverly played out the from a common play book towards a common goal.

Indian intelligentsia and professional residing in US are doing their bit to take page from the Israeli play book and do the same.

For us Pakistanis -- we can not live in the same city in peace with each other let alone play a part in the nation building siting 12 thousand miles away! It pains me greatly -- I lived in Us for six years and saw this leg pulling being played out daily between Pakistani Americans. There were some exceptions but few and far apart.

 

[kingofallkings]

In my point of view there are no relations with US, China, India, Israel & other countries but agreements, contracts and that is all.

We haven't permanent allies and permanent enemies, permanent only our national interests.

Excellent saying in the bold part. As a guest I was going through this forum for quite sometime and realized that many people possibly youngsters in the forum do not understand this rule of politics.

 

[SekrutYakhni]

"or us Pakistanis -- we can not live in the same city in peace with each other let alone play a part in the nation building siting 12 thousand miles away! It pains me greatly -- I lived in Us for six years and saw this leg pulling being played out daily between Pakistani Americans. There were some exceptions but few and far apart."

You are spot on sir. This is not a good precedent we are leaving for our future generations. We should come up with an intelligent solution to tackle this growing problem.

 

[SekrutYakhni]

I did not want to point out this nor I hold any grudge against Ahmadis BUT--In Canada, they are one of the most organized communities. They help each other in hard times, are really like Jews.

They hold each other's hand when in trouble. Just wanted to point out that a group of Pakistanis with different set of believes i.e. Ahmadis can do it, than why cannot other Pakistanis follow?

 

[rubyjackass]

I beg to disagree with the assertion that Christine Fair is pro-Pakistan. She is pro-American and pursues a pro-American position, and that typically includes excuses for American policy decisions with respect to Pakistan while bashing Pakistan. The tone of a majority of her articles is anti-Pakistan.

Even all your favorite pro-Indian analysts put forward their points as pro-American case points. The same thing thing applies here. And she, with due respect to her unbiased judgement, can be called pro-Pakistan. I don't know what articles of hers you have read before.

 

[Patriot]

If she is a friend of Pakistan then we don't need enemies.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Just wanted to point out that a group of Pakistanis with different set of believes i.e. Ahmadis can do it, than why cannot other Pakistanis follow?

Probably because 'other Pakistanis' still retain the mindset of not granting Pakistanis such as the Ahmadis equal rights.

How can a nation truly prosper when it clings to prejudice and discrimination against communities within it on the basis of their having different beliefs?

 

[Saleem]

For those who are really interested in the topic of international relations as exercised by the US it would be of interest to study the US-UK relations especially beginning in the period just after WW I (rather from 1917). You might want to consider the Lease Lend scheme etc.

It would give some insights how the US interacts with allies....