The Thorn in the Garden | Terrorism in Indo-Pak relations.

[jetti]

@jaibi when do you think the descent started?

Also do you have any thoughts on why kshmir on my side has so many problems but there is no news coming out of ***?

^ Thats P0K

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Thank you for appreciating the effort.

My view has not been Pakistani but has been confined to the two states involved. I have tried to show why Pakistan plays a harder ball game, something which every other analyst seems to ignore.

Secondly, ethnic based nationalism is the norm of nation-states, if you are going by logic, then nothing actually makes sense. especially private enterprise/territories and such. Religion based nations have not been a rarity in history and in the modern world we have 3 nations: Israel, Pakistan and South Sudan.

Thirdly, in actuality, and I would load the article I have been writing thought I must say the response on this one makes me think not to, is that Pakistan and India were conceived very differently from what we are seeing here. The border imagined was the one like the US and Canada share. There is considerable proof that many Indian Muslims stayed behind because they thought they would move later after handling this or that business; we've letters for that and there is a thesis coming on it in perhaps a few years. Up until 1958 Indian and Pakistani civil service were cooperating: India would get letters for what was now Pakistan and vice versa; the Lahore secretariat would routinely call up their counterparts in Amratsir to notify them of such; in policy, Pakistani circles thought of a regional defence pact with India against external agression (at the time against China) up in the 1960s. The decent into the chaos has been mutual the Indian thought that the blame lies on Pakistan is incorrect.

'There is considerable proof that many Indian Muslims stayed behind because they thought they would move later after handling this or that business; we've letters for that and there is a thesis coming on it in perhaps a few years' - True. There are many who (now) also wish to move to Pakistan (because their parents wanted to). But Pakistan has denied their requests for citizenship. I don't blame Pakistan for this though.

 

[Spring Onion]

amazing you are genius !!!! but in your dream only. what is wrong with hindutva name ? it means if a person have name Islam he is wrong ? example mohamad islam , maybe this name not on pdf. and dnt use double standard.

nothing wrong with hindutva name, the only think wrong is that its an ideology not a name.

hindutvas refused to be rational in any case.

'There is considerable proof that many Indian Muslims stayed behind because they thought they would move later after handling this or that business; we've letters for that and there is a thesis coming on it in perhaps a few years' - True. There are many who (now) also wish to move to Pakistan (because their parents wanted to). But Pakistan has denied their requests for citizenship. I don't blame Pakistan for this though.

Saffronis never accepted loyalties of these Indian Muslims.

Period. You guys always will looked down upon your Muslim citizens despite that fact that Muslims decided to stay in India. NOT all were having big business to take care and migrate later.

 

[[Bregs]]

Until Kashmir issue is solved Sir no one will stop Sir Kashmir is key to ultimate peace between India and Pakistan but that will never happen

Hopefully Kashmir issue will be resolved too one day for lasting peace between two countries

 

[SarthakGanguly]

nothing wrong with hindutva name, the only think wrong is that its an ideology not a name.

hindutvas refused to be rational in any case.



Saffronis never accepted loyalties of these Indian Muslims.

Period. You guys always will looked down upon your Muslim citizens despite that fact that Muslims decided to stay in India. NOT all were having big business to take care and migrate later.

I said 'many' and not all. Lack of comprehension skills is a serious problem. As for loyalties - religion has nothing to do with being Indian. You won't understand this. India/Bharat ka matlab is not 'Jai Shri Ram'.
Funny how you know better about what I think than myself. You must love/care a lot

 

[jaibi]

@jaibi

do you see any rational Indian in this thread? if NOT Then by now you must have realized what is ailing the relationship.

I see your point clearly, Spring. I had not expected such a response.

Why don't you say Pakistani controlled Kashmir and Indian controlled Kashmir? It is neutral, is it not?

Are you asking in terms of history?

@jaibi when do you think the descent started?

Also do you have any thoughts on why kshmir on my side has so many problems but there is no news coming out of ***?

^ Thats P0K

 

[Dillinger]

I see your point clearly, Spring. I had not expected such a response.

Yaara becuase you're not seeing it from our side exactly, which is understandable since we aren't exactly warming up to your POV either. Even as we speak a massive operation is on in Kenar against over 30 fidayeen. There is no atmosphere whatsoever for either amity or rationality at the moment.

 

[jaibi]

The situation changed drastically. I have not read into the requests as of yet but I will and will load an article as soon as I am able.

'There is considerable proof that many Indian Muslims stayed behind because they thought they would move later after handling this or that business; we've letters for that and there is a thesis coming on it in perhaps a few years' - True. There are many who (now) also wish to move to Pakistan (because their parents wanted to). But Pakistan has denied their requests for citizenship. I don't blame Pakistan for this though.

Are you trying to be sarcastic? Please stick to English.

Be respectful to the other member.

sorry, but kaduppu etharar my lord.[/QUOTE]

 

[SarthakGanguly]

The situation changed drastically. I have not read into the requests as of yet but I will and will load an article as soon as I am able.

In fact this is interesting how some people were so naive those days. Many Hindus also remained in East Pakistan especially hoping to do business there while hopping between one country to another. Especially because Hindus owned a lot of land there. Post a link to your article here. Would love to read it

 

[jaibi]

You've actually answered yourself. State terrorism has been used by both sides So, please, stop being the angel.

Actually there is NO pakistani side of Kashmir. See, so keep on dreaming and burn your house down to the ground while trying to set fire to your neighbor's house.



So you can use terrorism we can't? And the way things are going I guess repeat of 71' is not too far away. I would love to see a 26/11 type attack on some 5 star hotel in karachi, suicide bombers are available a dime a dozen in pakistan anyday.

We can either continue with the cr@p or think rationally and give peace a chance

 

[jetti]

I see your point clearly, Spring. I had not expected such a response.

Why don't you say Pakistani controlled Kashmir and Indian controlled Kashmir? It is neutral, is it not?

Are you asking in terms of history?

as you wish, its just the terminolgy on this side.
yes in terms of history, when do you think the downhill slide started? was it after 65?

 

[jaibi]

They were not naive they had lived in a cordial environment for a number of years people had not expected of communal riots and out-lash. There was a belief that it would be small scale and the police service would be able to handle it. It quickly became a bloodbath and both sides, Pakistan especially, had very little governmental structure to be able to respond adequately to the situation of communal rioting.

In fact this is interesting how some people were so naive those days. Many Hindus also remained in East Pakistan especially hoping to do business there while hopping between one country to another. Especially because Hindus owned a lot of land there. Post a link to your article here. Would love to read it

 

[jaibi]

No, it was before that, I am a bit rusty right now but there was a high level meeting of Ayub Khan in, I think 1961-2 when there was an attempt to reach a better diplomatic relation with India, especially on defence. The same year, Nehru made some remarks which stirred the Chinese. The Americans on whom our entire defence was dependent quickly came to India's supplies against China.

To let you know of the extent of Pakistan's dilemma: the anti-air installations that we were installing had a weekly shipment from the US, in 1962, the Americans delayed their shipments and directed them to India. Pakistan had shells to last only 5 days from this delay as the army was put on high alert. Effectively if India had attacked our defence would have been crippled in a week due to ammunition shortages. That's when Pakistan realised they need to be prepared, before that there was a thinking that India's pro-Soviet posture and 'non-aligned' attitude would ensure the US support in Pakistan's corner and if it came to war the US would aid Pakistan. That's when Pakistan and China realise their situation and the decent truly starts, in my view, though I would put it in detail after proper research.

as you wish, its just the terminolgy on this side.
yes in terms of history, when do you think the downhill slide started? was it after 65?

One of the reasons I wanted you and Hype to write this piece was that so there would be credibility to the views presented from each side. I went by what I read; I wanted you to present the Indian side.

Yaara becuase you're not seeing it from our side exactly, which is understandable since we aren't exactly warming up to your POV either. Even as we speak a massive operation is on in Kenar against over 30 fidayeen. There is no atmosphere whatsoever for either amity or rationality at the moment.

 

[sovcomflot]

They were not naive they had lived in a cordial environment for a number of years people had not expected of communal riots and out-lash. There was a belief that it would be small scale and the police service would be able to handle it. It quickly became a bloodbath and both sides, Pakistan especially, had very little governmental structure to be able to respond adequately to the situation of communal rioting.

I will be frank ,but Jinnah encouraged genocide of minorities. Pakistani army itself was involved in leading mobs against minorities and Jinnah had bought weapons from Egypt for ethnic cleansing and imperialist expansion purposes. Look at what happened to your nation.You lost the enterpreneurial talent that the minorities had. Likely if you had confiscated some part of the lands from minorities and given to common pakistanis instead of ethnic cleansing ,pakistan would have had less trouble and today would have been rich nations.

But your govt decided to bed with extremists and look at the state of affairs. Pakistan was richer than India ,but now look at it.
The same minorities Pakistan ethnically cleansed ,they are doing very well in India. Pakistan ?? Its in a state of slow collapse.

 

[AHAM BRIHMASMI]

Thank you for appreciating the effort.

My view has not been Pakistani but has been confined to the two states involved. I have tried to show why Pakistan plays a harder ball game, something which every other analyst seems to ignore.

Secondly, ethnic based nationalism is the norm of nation-states, if you are going by logic, then nothing actually makes sense. especially private enterprise/territories and such. Religion based nations have not been a rarity in history and in the modern world we have 3 nations: Israel, Pakistan and South Sudan.

Thirdly, in actuality, and I would load the article I have been writing thought I must say the response on this one makes me think not to, is that Pakistan and India were conceived very differently from what we are seeing here. The border imagined was the one like the US and Canada share. There is considerable proof that many Indian Muslims stayed behind because they thought they would move later after handling this or that business; we've letters for that and there is a thesis coming on it in perhaps a few years. Up until 1958 Indian and Pakistani civil service were cooperating: India would get letters for what was now Pakistan and vice versa; the Lahore secretariat would routinely call up their counterparts in Amratsir to notify them of such; in policy, Pakistani circles thought of a regional defence pact with India against external agression (at the time against China) up in the 1960s. The decent into the chaos has been mutual the Indian thought that the blame lies on Pakistan is incorrect.

My mistake, as I can only see logic and nothing else. You said that religion based nations are not rare and came up with only three out of 190+ states on the earth. and those three are going through which state since their creation is a well known fact. A sane person like you should have understood by their condition itself that it is a failed foundation( neev) to build on a state.
Imagination of US and CANADA like border was a paper hoax thrown out to public by separatists hawks of both side at the time of partition. you are a researcher, research a bit more about force 136 during partition time. also research about the idea of creating a buffer state between india and middle east. there were many forces (including usa, russia,middle east, leave alon GB)working on at that time. and welfare of people or question of religion was the least priority to every involved interest. It was used rather abused by every party as a chara.
so mind my words, even if india give kashmir (heck even up, bihar, hayderabad etc. ) to pakistan, there wont be any peace.
the problem is not that simple as you think.