'The System'-by WAJsal

[VCheng]

Sir I already have more invested in Pakistan than UK (where I reside). So stakes are high for me and I am hopeful it will get better. So I am probably helping Pakistan (Indirectly) more than I would be able to while/if I reside there. I may even move back depending on how my family circumstances are etc.

I wish you the best of luck with your plans!

 

[WAJsal]

@Shah01 , can you share your Patwari problem with the rest of our friends, if possible. And tag a few members..

Secondly one is left wondering why the status-quo doesn't fix the most basic problems we face. Link it all the way to the top, brilliant.

the question arises who was "originally" responsible for this ? Politicians or Military ?

Bureaucrats and the inherited colonial system made way for most of the problems we have faced...
Plus, i don't see the difference between ZAB or Zia. All the are equally to be blamed.

It's always easy (in fact fashionable) to bash Pak Army and hold it responsible for all our ills ... Politicians are equally (if not more) responsible ...

Agreed, i have bashed politicians more than dictators. But dictators too have played a part. PA like any other institution had colonial mindset alive, PA top officers thought of themselves above the law...But i fully agree with your point.

 

[Shah01]

@Shah01 , can you share your Patwari problem with the rest of our friends, if possible. And tag a few members..

Well I will try to explain: (I can name and shame if you want)
Back in 1992-3 my dad bought some land from a feudal (agreement was for 25 acres for x amount of money. When the money was paid the feudal refused to transfer the land but long story short he was paid y amount and transaction was done for only 13 acres). So all the fees to the government was paid (including patwari/tehsildar chai pani etc) and got the intekal done. Almost two years ago the daughter of the feudal (after his death) filed a case on almost 90 people (this case is on about a 1000 kennals) that she was the owner and didn't sell the land and we have been renting it for the last 20+ years. So this is as far as this particular case got to.

In 1994-5 dad bought another piece of land funnily from another feudal (this time the agreement was for 16.5 acres (two tranches) and it went well all the transactions done etc. Government fees paid etc). Although we've had a case filed on part of this land by his ex-wife but district court cancelled it.
Last year the supreme court judge took a suo moto action against a substantial land area (which may or may not have belonged to okaf at some point) and he gave orders to take the land back without any consideration of current situation. This is almost 70 plus morrabbas (i.e. more than 1750 acres in urban area) a rough value would be in multi billions. So this will affect thousands of people/families including us with some having very substantial land holdings/plots. So not sure how to tackle this one as this is the supreme court.....

Don't know who to tag so I will leave that for you.

 

[WAJsal]

Well I will try to explain: (I can name and shame if you want)
Back in 1992-3 my dad bought some land from a feudal (agreement was for 25 acres for x amount of money. When the money was paid the feudal refused to transfer the land but long story short he was paid y amount and transaction was done for only 13 acres). So all the fees to the government was paid (including patwari/tehsildar chai pani etc) and got the intekal done. Almost two years ago the daughter of the feudal (after his death) filed a case on almost 90 people (this case is on about a 1000 kennals) that she was the owner and didn't sell the land and we have been renting it for the last 20+ years. So this is as far as this particular case got to.

In 1994-5 dad bought another piece of land funnily from another feudal (this time the agreement was for 16.5 acres (two tranches) and it went well all the transactions done etc. Government fees paid etc). Although we've had a case filed on part of this land by his ex-wife but district court cancelled it.
Last year the supreme court judge took a suo moto action against a substantial land area (which may or may not have belonged to okaf at some point) and he gave orders to take the land back without any consideration of current situation. This is almost 70 plus morrabbas (i.e. more than 1750 acres in urban area) a rough value would be in multi billions. So this will affect thousands of people/families including us with some having very substantial land holdings/plots. So not sure how to tackle this one as this is the supreme court.....

Don't know who to tag so I will leave that for you.

WOW!
@Joe Shearer , and others...

 

[Joe Shearer]

WOW!
@Joe Shearer , and others...

It is not surprising to read this very sad account of the way the right to own property is violated left, right and centre, and all for the benefit of feudals who should have been disciplined by now. Instead, they command the ruling heights of Pakistani economy and society, and their influence is a dead hand on the country's future. I sincerely hope that some justice is done for @Shah01 's people, but it would be dishonest not to admit that I am pessimistic, given the rampant collusion between the upper echelons of society, no matter which party they belong to, no matter what profession or means of livelihood they pursue, no matter who is in the eye of society and who is not.

 

[Shah01]

I sincerely hope that some justice is done for @Shah01 's people, but it would be dishonest not to admit that I am pessimistic, given the rampant collusion between the upper echelons of society, no matter which party they belong to, no matter what profession or means of livelihood they pursue, no matter who is in the eye of society and who is not.

I don't expect Justice to be served in this case but these people are after money (so a deal will be struck at some point and the case will be dropped hopefully). BTW a very prominent family is involved in the first case and they have close links to IK!!!!
Sir these feudals are losing their power/influence every year (as I explained in my earlier posts). Their land is divided many times in their family and sold to outsiders to keep up appearance as well as to invest in political careers (only the uneducated people and in rural areas have influence but urban areas these feudals are becoming no bodies). The land is bought by the middle and business class as investment and livelihood. I have seen increasingly their children becoming civil servants as well as take part in politics so this is the shift they have made from land banks. They are well educated and aware of what is going on in the world. They are good at bureaucracy. I say that is an improvement compared to their forefathers (who used to kill people without any remorse). So the times are changing and these people are learning from the west and how to have control over masses without even interfering in their day to day lives.
The introduction of electronic land registry will take care of some forms of frauds done in the past by patwaris. Although it is an improvement from the old system it is still far from perfect (i.e. the staff is not professional enough but great improvement from patwari of olden times).
So I think as long as the Judiciary is weak we will see no change in Pakistan. Empower Judiciary and independent police will do wonders for any country and Pakistan could do with reforms in these two institutions.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I don't expect Justice to be served in this case but these people are after money (so a deal will be struck at some point and the case will be dropped hopefully). BTW a very prominent family is involved in the first case and they have close links to IK!!!!
Sir these feudals are losing their power/influence every year (as I explained in my earlier posts). Their land is divided many times in their family and sold to outsiders to keep up appearance as well as to invest in political careers (only the uneducated people and in rural areas have influence but urban areas these feudals are becoming no bodies). The land is bought by the middle and business class as investment and livelihood. I have seen increasingly their children becoming civil servants as well as take part in politics so this is the shift they have made from land banks. They are well educated and aware of what is going on in the world. They are good at bureaucracy. I say that is an improvement compared to their forefathers (who used to kill people without any remorse). So the times are changing and these people are learning from the west and how to have control over masses without even interfering in their day to day lives.
The introduction of electronic land registry will take care of some forms of frauds done in the past by patwaris. Although it is an improvement from the old system it is still far from perfect (i.e. the staff is not professional enough but great improvement from patwari of olden times).
So I think as long as the Judiciary is weak we will see no change in Pakistan. Empower Judiciary and independent police will do wonders for any country and Pakistan could do with reforms in these two institutions.

And that is precisely the formula, in addition to strictly separating Ministers and other politicians from implementation,as well as setting up Police and Administrative Commissions constitutionally empowered to take independent decisions on the postings of policemen and administrators, that many of us would like to see in India.

Your narration was saddening.

 

[Shah01]

And that is precisely the formula, in addition to strictly separating Ministers and other politicians from implementation,as well as setting up Police and Administrative Commissions constitutionally empowered to take independent decisions on the postings of policemen and administrators, that many of us would like to see in India.

Your narration was saddening.

I am hoping the change come from the current and next generation of these feudals along the lines of western formula (it will be easier to implement as well as quicker and everyone will be happy).

It is a sad narration but many will have to live with it. Risk of losing all their life savings in their old age.......
From the second case with supreme court I know families who bought (not with corruption money) land holdings in 100s of acres from these feudals and also suffering the same fate (these are not poor people by any means) but you can imagine the situation and how deep rooted the influence is.

 

[Cookie Monster]

This subject requires lengthy discussions but I'll try to keep it short.

During my time in Pakistan I have seen both Democracy and Martial Law. While here in U.S. I got to see democracy even more closely in the very country that champions it around the world. To be honest it's not all that it's hyped up to be. Before pro democracy ppl wage a war against me let me explain what I mean.

In a dictatorship/monarchy/similar forms of government. The problem is the lack of checks and balances. If u get a benevolent and just ruler that's great. If it goes in the opposite direction(which it mostly always does due to human nature...greed) there's nothing much that can be done. Try to be the voice of change and u lose ur head.

The point of democracy was to counter that. A government for the people by the people. It had checks and balances to ensure power doesn't concentrate in a few hands. The terms(in office) were limited, etc. This was all great at least on paper. It worked in practice too. Until ppl figured out how to use this new system to achieve those same goals that they could with the old system.

Today in the U.S. the rich ppl and corporations can "donate" money to as many politicians as they wish. The Supreme Court here ruled that money is a form of speech. Therefore the more money u have the more ur voice is heard and the poor man is silenced. The Surpeme court also conveniently ruled that if no direct link can be shown between a candidate receiving money and in return doing something for the benefit of their donor then that is not corruption/bribe(I'm paraphrasing).

Lobbying, Superpacs, and other things like this(there's a lot more...too long to list) have ensured that almost all representatives that used to represent the people now represent the interests of their donors and basically are on someone else's paycheck.

While I'm no expert in this field the only option I see where a system can get close to being perfect would be one where money and power are decoupled forever. The moment when people in power and people with money start working in sync. The majority of the people are no longer represented and their interests are ignored. Coming up with a perfect system might be a tall order to fulfill. Until then we are all bound to live in these corrupt systems regardless of what that system is.

It reminds of this quote "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" perhaps this should be rephrased in this context.

"A corrupt government by any other name..."

 

[Shah01]

Below sums up the current western democracy: but there is some accountability as well as law & order plus swift justice. Introduce these in Pakistan and it will fix most of the ills if not all.

Today in the U.S. the rich ppl and corporations can "donate" money to as many politicians as they wish. The Supreme Court here ruled that money is a form of speech. Therefore the more money u have the more ur voice is heard and the poor man is silenced. The Surpeme court also conveniently ruled that if no direct link can be shown between a candidate receiving money and in return doing something for the benefit of their donor then that is not corruption/bribe(I'm paraphrasing).

Lobbying, Superpacs, and other things like this(there's a lot more...too long to list) have ensured that almost all representatives that used to represent the people now represent the interests of their donors and basically are on someone else's paycheck.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Below sums up the current western democracy: but there is some accountability as well as law & order plus swift justice. Introduce these in Pakistan and it will fix most of the ills if not all.

Accountability/Law and Order does exist but only for those who are powerless average people.
For the big fish in the government NAB/Supreme Court/Other means of accountability seem powerless/useless. For example take our last president. The only one that really tried to do something was the Supreme Court(and that too only bcuz of the Chief Justice at that time) when he tried to open the Swiss bank accounts case against him. The man looted the country with both hands and nobody stopped him. Who could've stopped him? The parliament? It was filled by PPPP and people in his pocket. Prime Minister? Lol also of his party(both). So much so that one took the fall for him. Supreme Court? Made powerless by using this law and that. Such is the "democracy" and that's why people lose faith in it.

 

[Shah01]

Accountability/Law and Order/Swift Justice does exist but only for those who are powerless average people.

That is the case in western societies. The upper echelon will get away with murder and no one will know as they have hold on media as well.
When it comes to Pakistan the average people don't get justice hence the frustration.

 

[Cookie Monster]

That is the case in western societies. The upper echelon will get away with murder and no one will know as they have hold on media as well.
When it comes to Pakistan the average people don't get justice hence the frustration.

Yeah sadly it is the common man that has to suffer the injustices at the very hands of the people that were elected to keep the injustices from happening. Also as to the dilemma regarding the land issues that u discussed, why hasn't there been any media coverage of it? I hadn't come across that issue until now.

 

[Shah01]

Yeah sadly it is the common man that has to suffer the injustices at the very hands of the people that were elected to keep the injustices from happening. Also as to the dilemma regarding the land issues that u discussed, why hasn't there been any media coverage of it? I hadn't come across that issue until now.

Hence I explained above that the ruling elite need to learn from the west before the populace start going after them.
The land issues are not in media as we haven't contacted any media outlet. It will only add to cost and nothing will be resolved. As I said in my post a deal will be struck at some point and we will have to pay to keep the land etc (these people are after money). The case with supreme court deserves a media attention (I may arrange it at some point).

 

[Cookie Monster]

Hence I explained above that the ruling elite need to learn from the west before the populace start going after them.
The land issues are not in media as we haven't contacted any media outlet. It will only add to cost and nothing will be resolved. As I said in my post a deal will be struck at some point and we will have to pay to keep the land etc (these people are after money). The case with supreme court deserves a media attention (I may arrange it at some point).

I think it's better if it gets media attention. Worst case scenario nothing comes out of it and you guys still have to pay money to keep the land. Best case scenario it may put pressure on those goons to back down or put pressure on the government to deliver justice.