The real causes of Muslims scientific downfall

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Muslim country makes 100 Dollar

ESTABLISHMENT
>65 Dollar is eaten by Military
>20 Dollar is eaten by Politicians & Judges

For Slaves
>5 Dollar goes to Development Fund
>9 Dollar goes to debt payment
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>1 Dollar is spent on Salaries , Divided by 4 provinces


Fine Print: Not everyone gets a Government Job

If this budget is so tight how can we spend on Scientific Knowlege?

 

[Tom-tom]

I need some material on this topic (for a debate competition.
Deviance from islam is the most commonly told factor for their downfall.

I read on a book long ago (probably by Dr. Ausaf Ali) that the lack of entrepreneurship culture in Muslim empires was a major cause of Muslims scientific downfall .

That's an interesting factor not usually discussed
I think some more similar factors would have been there that caused their scientific downfall
Think of them and write them right here
Thanks in advance

Also there were many internal rebellions, the rulers underestimated the Christians they had reports of a group of child soldiers marching to the m/e during crusade times.

How ever they never heard of the actual army marching behind them from a distance.

 

[PakFactor]

I know what you meant but the truth is what Ghazali did although he did it for the greater good, it destroyed the free-thinking and tolerance. So, he did a commendable job fighting the fitna but in the long run, it bites in the back of the Muslim ummah.

I agree with the sentiment, but there is one issue. The most unqualified ulema interpreted his work. He wasn't against scientific work but went about separating the two categories. He also stated it would be a crime to champion religion by denying mathematics and science. Overall, the goal was to say do not mix the two but continue on the work in their respective categories.

I'm baffled that ancient scholars were a special kind of stupid to misquote or rape his thesis.

 

[fitpOsitive]

I need some material on this topic (for a debate competition.
Deviance from islam is the most commonly told factor for their downfall.

I read on a book long ago (probably by Dr. Ausaf Ali) that the lack of entrepreneurship culture in Muslim empires was a major cause of Muslims scientific downfall .

That's an interesting factor not usually discussed
I think some more similar factors would have been there that caused their scientific downfall
Think of them and write them right here
Thanks in advance

@Abu Shaleh Rumi @Muhammad Saftain Anjum

One word: Modern Banking system.

This very Banking system gathered all power and wealth in the West. Uthmanis couldn't stand in front of this Banking system despite all the might. Mughals got destroyed through this system. India was controlled through this system. Contemporary science needs money, a lot of that. Before advancing in science Muslims must come up with an idea to defeat the western banking system. Everything else will follow.

 

[lightning F57]

The fall of andalusia in the west and Baghdad in the east were big turning events. Muslim world fractured infighting then led to a period of being conquered and enslaved. This sti is the case today in the form of corruption and poor leadership.

 

[Kambojaric]

Several factors, some major ones are:

- Decline in state patronage especially after the fall of major academic and scientific hubs like Cordoba and Baghdad. General political turmoil with the Crusaders capturing Jerusalem and threatening even Egypt. The golden age took place during a long period of relative peace and stability during the Abbasid/Ummayad eras where borders were not fluctuating constantly.
- Non literary cultures becoming the major powerhouses of the Muslim world post Mongol demise, primarily in the shape of Turkic and Caucasian peoples (Oghuz, Circassians etc.). These people's whilst adapt at warfare did not possess the cultural heritage of the Perso-Arabic peoples.
- Philosophical and theological debates within causing a turn away from scientific thought, read: Mu'tazila vs Asharism, Ghazali.
- The emergence during the gunpowder age of large consolidated Muslim(Turkic) empires who did not pose existential threats to one another (Mughals, Safavids, Ottomans). In contrast Europe was divided into many small states prompting a scientific race amongst them to gain a military and naval edge for the sake of survival.

 

[Ssan]

There are several reasons for this. None of them have to do with ideology. All of them have to do with political and economic factors. In general, technology and scientific progress is tied to economic and political stability, not ideology. Here are some key reasons:-

1) Abbasids promoted a Muslim polity with a great deal of regional power devolution. That meant the center could often not take the initiatives required like early Abbasids were able to take (see bayt ul ilm or translation initiatives). Eventually Abbasids become a puppet caliph of first the Shia led Buhayid dynasty and then the Seljuks and the empire was just a bunch of different regions fighting each other.

2) then the mongols can and destroyed eastern part of muslim empire. The destruction was so bad that they killed 80-90% of the population in eastern part of empire. This was a key intellectual heartland of the Muslim world and would not recover population wise until the 19th-20th century.

3) the Europeans found new colonies where they were able to get resources. They flooded these resources in the old world (mercantilism) and caused inflation in the rest of the old world and only europe was saved from this due to them being key beneficiaries of age of colonialism. From 15-18th century, this age of colonialism severely weakened the Muslim empire economically.

4) in between this, ottomans made some key errors. One was not adapting key technologies quickly like printing press. When they eventually did start doing it, they were constantly playing catch up.

5) another was not militarizing the Indian Ocean. Neither the Chinese or Indian civs militarized their navies. They had peaceful Indian Ocean trade for centuries and the Arabs didn’t militarize the Indian Ocean either. This is why it was so easy for Portuguese to take it. Even though the ottomans had the capability to do it, they didn’t. They had the strongest navy in the world until battle of lepanto but never militarized the Indian Ocean despite it allowing Portugal and then the Dutch and then the British to do it.

6) and finally, and this is a really critical one, shah ismael forcefully converted Persia into Shi’ism. This effectively cut off the western part of the Muslim world from the eastern part of the Muslim world. Because Persia is the only bridge that connects our two halves. If we want to regain our ascendancy, we need to reunite Pakistan/Iran/Turkey in some sort of union.

 

[Englishman]

Need to bring back the caliphate.

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

Scientific discovery is a quest. One based on contributions from queries by people reaching pinnacle of their respective scholarship.
It has no culture, genes or religion!
Entrepreneurship is only tangential to scientific research, discovery and discipline. Entrepreneurship requires and answers a consumer demand... fulfilled primarily through financial means... so, too is Science!
Historically, as Muslims ascended, they created/needed an environment which they themselves benefited from ... the security and period of stability provided ample impetus for exhaustive, substantive and well grounded enquiry.
Translation and conversation.
It created a brain drain, then, that people in respective fields felt compelled and traveled for...
Which brings me back to culture...
Science is not a cultural phenomenon, western Europe, East Asia can just as easily fall back to the dark ages. It requires institutions, bouts of individual exceptionalism and above all an understanding and acceptance of being wrong!
Which is why being grounded in your reality is so important along with the courage to be wrong and starting from there...
As I said it is being part of the story, delving in it and only then there could be a conversation and channeling of minds. A discourse established...
You cannot just borrow someone else's clothes to become them! You must be and remain true to yourself.
Muslims couldn't institutionalize scientific discovery nor prevent their former empires from collapse... none of this happens in a vacuum. The changing world... movement of goods and services from outside of Muslim dominated areas to outside, conflict, politics and finance.
I personally divide current discourse in three different categories, public/political, financial and academic.
Public/political expects science to either conform to desired results or leads to a certain preconceived end.
Consumer demand and desires are coerced and cajoled via systems of credit, public policy and scientific discovery, only in so much as desired results(profit...) are achieved. Only academic research and query results in impartial and often practical discovery and keeps the discipline of discovery alive.

You'd have to just go through the back and forth between minds on an equation, theory or observation to find out the intensity and interest of participants involved and their passion for it...

Today though, Muslims are only a resource for brain drain and scientific discovery in shores far from their lands as ... the period desired, nor institutions inspired have been inculcated and established.

That, as I have mentioned earlier demands a return to roots and forgo aping whatever is in vogue concurrently.

The other approach is to let others butt heads while you sit, smug.
You really have to be very conscious and confident to do that though...

 

[Dr-who]

An interesting historical connection here is that the downfall of Science and Philosophy in Muslim World started with the decline of Arab Muslim Power.

With the rise of Central Asian Muslims and decline of Arab and Persian Based politicians and Intellectuals. All went down hill.

Not blaming or glorifying anything. Just a corelation i observed.
The Early Muslim civilization that was formed by ambitious Arabs who also absorbed the Persian Knowledge base was overpowered and subdued by the Brave strong and rough warriors from the steppe. And the Mongol horde was the last nail in the coffin of Islamic civilization.

When the Arab power was declining, we had at that rise of Ottoman Empire

 

[Dr-who]

Mongol attack to Bagdad
Mongol burn Kingdom library and killed many people
Why Mongol kill many people ? Because it is their law for any region/kingdom who oppose their rule

Lay down your weapon, surrender or your town will be destroyed this is what Mongol do when they want to attack another country
------------------

Mongol then turn to Islam, but their understanding on Islam is not as complex as Arab and Mongol lead Muslim world under Turkish

Turkish is pragmatic and dont like changes of ideas practiced in Bagdad before Mongol invasion.

The era of Muslim mongol rule in India/Persia/Syria/Turkish was marked by modernity
There has to be some other reason for the collective fall from grace

The fall of andalusia in the west and Baghdad in the east were big turning events. Muslim world fractured infighting then led to a period of being conquered and enslaved. This sti is the case today in the form of corruption and poor leadership.

Fall of abdulasia and Baghdad saw the rise of Ottoman Empire and Mughal empire

 

[khansaheeb]

This was the major cause, the Arabs like today neglected the most important thing which was "defense":-

The Mongol Sack of Baghdad in 1258

The Mongol conquest of the Abbasid Caliphate culminated in the horrific sack of Baghdad that effectively ended the Islamic Golden Age.

www.wondriumdaily.com

 

[Rusty2]

Need to bring back the caliphate.

Absolutely not.
How would a government system designed for a pre-industrial, desert society be of any use in a modern information age society?
We need to freedom, education, and democracy.
That is the only salvation for our society. Everything else is just another road towards Afghanistan/Pakistan/majority of non oil Muslim countries.

This was the major cause, the Arabs like today neglected the most important thing which was "defense":-

The Mongol Sack of Baghdad in 1258

The Mongol conquest of the Abbasid Caliphate culminated in the horrific sack of Baghdad that effectively ended the Islamic Golden Age.

www.wondriumdaily.com

Very very rarely is there one event that is the cause of something major like the fall of a civilization. The Mongol sacking of Baghdad was the death blow to a civilization was was already on life support.

 

[Dr-who]

Absolutely not.
How would a government system designed for a pre-industrial, desert society be of any use in a modern information age society?
We need to freedom, education, and democracy.
That is the only salvation for our society. Everything else is just another road towards Afghanistan/Pakistan/majority of non oil Muslim countries.


Very very rarely is there one event that is the cause of something major like the fall of a civilization. The Mongol sacking of Baghdad was the death blow to a civilization was was already on life support.

We Muslims in a general sense are not suited for democracy due to our tribal tendencies.
We have an example of China rising up rapidly, we should be like chinese and adopt their way of doing things

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

The era of Muslim mongol rule in India/Persia/Syria/Turkish was marked by modernity
There has to be some other reason for the collective fall from grace


Fall of abdulasia and Baghdad saw the rise of Ottoman Empire and Mughal empire

Europe found trade routes circumventing Muslim MENA region and reached far east and India. They found New World!
Muslims lost both militarily and financially... Ottomans lost to Portuguese and they established/controlled ports on Indian Ocean region.
This, though, was happening way past Mongol invasion that took out the old regime, scholarship and institutions.
Trade routes forever changed subsequent to European arrival in Indian Ocean.
So, did the fortune of Muslims. With subsequent rule and centuries of upheaval there never was the perch or luxury for scientific discovery nor a comprehensive dialogue on the meanings of things, measures or deductions. Remember there must be a need or desire, plus the means.