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The political victimisation of Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy

but we are not talking about Assamese or Spanish. we are talking about Urdu. i'm saying there can be ethnic Bengalis (not Muhajirs) hailing from Bangladesh or West Bengal whose mother tongue is Urdu. i sense you are maybe trying to deny something very basic, but this is something very common among the educated Muslims of Bengal not long ago, besides people who could use Urdu as second language. because of the Urduphobic Muslimphobic grip by commie-Brahmins in BD, it's a shame so many people of our generation like you would deny some of our basic cultural facts.
Using Urdu was very common among the educated class of this area...as is the use of English today...I doubt you understand what a mother language is....language and culture are extremely important identifiers of ethnicity...Urdu or any language other than Bangla has no place in our ethnic identity..you can speak Urdu or whatever you want and be a Bengali...but you cannot be sane and educated(hopefully) and claim that Urdu can be the mother tongue of a person Bengali by ethnicity....the key word here is mother tongue...Bengali kids growing up in the west can and do speak English at home but their mother tongue remains Bengali....oh and a huge portion of Urdu is directly taken from Vedic Sanskrit...It is closer to the smelly "Hindu" than Bangla.
 
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Um, we ARE from the Eastern side of Bengal :azn: Dhaka and Barisal. Just saying.



True, but by all accounts, they had fun. Lunch at Firpo's, tea at Flury's (sometimes; it was more often a home thing), dinner with a friend and then the night club at Theatre Road. Films at the New Empire, the Lighthouse or the Metro, where Mr. Hafesjee always had a ticket or ten tucked away for special guests. A box at the races, and a flutter on New Year's Day after the revelry, polo at XMas....people returning from long parties in the early (and not so early) mornings would have to dodge the street washing, when every major street was washed down before the day began. Friday lunch was obviously at the Bengal Club, but patriotic Indians tended to stick to the Calcutta Club. The chhota sahibs were herded into the Saturday Club, and the ridin', huntin', fishin' types tended to gather at Tolly for the gym. The muddied oafs and flanneled fools found their own niche on the crossing of Store Road and Ballygunge Road, later Gurusaday Road and Syed Amir Ali Avenue, at the CC&FC. Chhota sahibs at the first place I worked, some years before I joined, were known to break off for rugger after a light lunch, and to come back into the office in their kit to sign whatever letters they had to sign even before going home for a shower and a cocktail. Boxwallahs were non-U, uniforms were very U, and Sonny and Paddy Nazarganj threw lavish Christmas parties; if you were anybody, you would get invited. The Army was all over, the ex-Army was even more all over. Pearson Surita's little brother Ivan was a retired Major with a Military Cross, Paddy Baker from the famous paint company was ex-Irish Guards, Pratul Lahiri was in circulation with his own brand of doggerel verses for every occasion, some when the ladies were present, many, many more when they were not - but we used to get chased out and off to bed by 9, anyway.

In 1961, it was the centenary year for the world's oldest polo club (second oldest technically; the oldest was Silchar, established by one Major General J. Shearer, which went belly up when the British withdrew), and the finalists were Ratanada and Calcutta Polo Club. Ratanada looked unbeatable; the legendary Hanut, the Rao Raja son (if you are a Rajput, you will understand the code) and his sons, Kanwar Bijay and Kanwar Hari, and one other, and on our side (yes, our side) Prem Singh of the 80 yard hits, Col. Alec Harper, still in India, someone whose name I can't recall, and a mystery Pakistani, playing with a carbuncle which he dosed with internal and external applications of brandy. It was a six chukker match, and at the end of four chukkers, all the ladies of Calcutta (remember the song?) were wrapped in gloomy but politely applauding silence, Pearson from the sound of it was already thinking about his brandy and soda after the commentary was to be over; Ratanada were 6 to 4 (it was an open handicap tournament), and two chukkers to go. And then the bloody lot got a 40 yarder. In a 60 yarder, you get to block the goal you are defending, in a 40 yarder, you have to leave it clear. Bijay cantered back - he was then playing 7 or 8, his father was playing 9 because Jaipur was playing 10 and you couldn't have a Rao Raja playing the same handicap as a ruling prince, which is why Hanut was known as the only 11 goal player in the world! - and it was clearly a goal before he even took the shot. Sure enough, he hit it lofted and it was aimed right between the goal posts flying in at about four feet from the ground. Suddenly there was a bay in full gallop in the way. The rider checked his pony just enough to stop the ball, it fell to the ground, he picked it up with a deft tap, a longer stroke and he was away, in glorious full gallop down the left side of the field, away from us in the stands, so that we could watch every magnificent bit of it. The stunned Ratanada team rallied and raced off madly to defend their goal, but it was all too late! There was a swashbuckling angled cut, and it was in the Ratanada goal! 6 to 5 and everybody screaming their lungs out, all the high society ladies, all the suited gentlemen, even the syces.

The rest was a dream. Alec Harper was an immovable rock, Prem hit 80 yarder after 80 yarder (those who have played know what this means, the equivalent of successive overs of sixes on each ball for a batsman) and the Pakistani was death on horseback. 6 all, then 6 to 7 for CPC, and on the final bugle, an exhausted, delirious stand saw Calcutta the winners by 8 to 6.

Those Pakistanis who know the game and its players will sit back and nod knowledgeably when I tell you who that cavalry-moustached gent was who turned the game - it was Brigadier Hesky Baig.



Everybody knew everybody those days. Your granddad would definitely have known the Wrights. Bob Wright was the spitting image of David Niven, and was the son of Robin Wright, DIG Dacca Range, and Anne's father was a leading railway engineer.
Wow! You were practically British. :D

Honest question - how hard did the Indian independence hit you/your family?
 
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Wow! You were practically British. :D

Honest question - how hard did the Indian independence hit you/your family?

Very hard. My parents were over the moon with delight. My grandfather, the Forest Service officer, had been a lifelong fan of the Americans, and disliked the British intensely, tuning in to forbidden radio stations during the war. My father was posted out to Cox's Bazar because the British had got over cherry-picking Bengalis for being nationalists and took other measures, like posting them to the frontiers. Both parts of the family were ardent nationalists, even as they were sticklers for the good personal qualities of the British.

Your thought that we regretted the passing of the British is typical of your thoughts in other directions, and this answer is only to set the record straight.

As I am leaving this forum, I no longer have to suffer your insinuations and barely-concealed spite and envy, and the deep regret of leaving the forum is tempered with delight at no longer having to deal with the likes of you.
 
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Very hard. My parents were over the moon with delight. My grandfather, the Forest Service officer, had been a lifelong fan of the Americans, and disliked the British intensely, tuning in to forbidden radio stations during the war. My father was posted out to Cox's Bazar because the British had got over cherry-picking Bengalis for being nationalists and took other measures, like posting them to the frontiers. Both parts of the family were ardent nationalists, even as they were sticklers for the good personal qualities of the British.

Your thought that we regretted the passing of the British is typical of your thoughts in other directions, and this answer is only to set the record straight.

As I am leaving this forum, I no longer have to suffer your insinuations and barely-concealed spite and envy, and the deep regret of leaving the forum is tempered with delight at no longer having to deal with the likes of you.
Touching. :) Thank you. :agree:

Btw, you take things online TOO seriously. :P

Hopefully I will meet you. For real. :tup:
 
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Using Urdu was very common among the educated class of this area...as is the use of English today...I doubt you understand what a mother language is....language and culture are extremely important identifiers of ethnicity...Urdu or any language other than Bangla has no place in our ethnic identity..you can speak Urdu or whatever you want and be a Bengali...but you cannot be sane and educated(hopefully) and claim that Urdu can be the mother tongue of a person Bengali by ethnicity....the key word here is mother tongue...Bengali kids growing up in the west can and do speak English at home but their mother tongue remains Bengali....oh and a huge portion of Urdu is directly taken from Vedic Sanskrit...It is closer to the smelly "Hindu" than Bangla.


1. Urdu evolved as a language among the soldiers of the Muslim rulers who recruited from C & W Asia and among locals. Thus this was commonly understood by all. Even the Portuguese, the French and the British found this easy to learn. During the Raj, officers posted in from England had to take a course in Urdu/Hindustani during the voyage. PA and IA even after partition continued to use training books and manuals written in Roman Urdu. Illiterate soldiers used to learn their trade in RU which was taught to them to make them literate. Ayub Khan had mulled using the Roman script for all Pakistanis. But by that time he had become unpopular so that the idea could not be mooted.

2. All over SA Muslims use Urdu as the link language. Whether in SL or S India or in Bengal, Muslims have been using Urdu to communicate with each other. In BD, as elsewhere in SA, the elite Muslims used Urdu as the mother tongue - yes, the mother tongue. As a casualty of '71, Urdu has been exiled from BD, but it is a state language in W Bengal. Muslims of Assam / NE also use this.

3. Sadly in India deliberate efforts are made to extinguish Urdu which holds much of our Muslim heritage and history. And sadly again, too much Persianization has set into the language in Pakistan. You find a vast difference in what people use in day to life and what is used as the formal language. The national anthem, for instance. What a fine tune, but how many Pakistanis understand what they are singing?
 
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1. Urdu evolved as a language among the soldiers of the Muslim rulers who recruited from C & W Asia and among locals. Thus this was commonly understood by all. Even the Portuguese, the French and the British found this easy to learn. During the Raj, officers posted in from England had to take a course in Urdu/Hindustani during the voyage. PA and IA even after partition continued to use training books and manuals written in Roman Urdu. Illiterate soldiers used to learn their trade in RU which was taught to them to make them literate. Ayub Khan had mulled using the Roman script for all Pakistanis. But by that time he had become unpopular so that the idea could not be mooted.

2. All over SA Muslims use Urdu as the link language. Whether in SL or S India or in Bengal, Muslims have been using Urdu to communicate with each other. In BD, as elsewhere in SA, the elite Muslims used Urdu as the mother tongue - yes, the mother tongue. As a casualty of '71, Urdu has been exiled from BD, but it is a state language in W Bengal. Muslims of Assam / NE also use this.

3. Sadly in India deliberate efforts are made to extinguish Urdu which holds much of our Muslim heritage and history. And sadly again, too much Persianization has set into the language in Pakistan. You find a vast difference in what people use in day to life and what is used as the formal language. The national anthem, for instance. What a fine tune, but how many Pakistanis understand what they are singing?

Urdu’s origin: it’s not a ‘camp language’

Some myths are so deep-rooted that one has to work really hard to make people, especially students face facts. One such myth is about the origin of Urdu. Most of our students subscribe to the view that Urdu is a ‘lashkari zaban’ or ‘camp language’. With due apologies, let me add that even some of our teachers, too, believe in this old notion that was proved wrong long ago.

According to the popular myth, Urdu is a ‘camp language’ or ‘lashkari zaban’ because it originated in the army camps of the Mughals. The reasoning — if it can be called as such at all — behind the so-called theory is that Urdu is a mixture of words taken from different languages such as Arabic, Persian, Turkish and Hindi. The soldiers who spoke these languages were recruited to the Mughal army and to communicate among themselves they used this new language, and thus Urdu was born. People holding this view cite the fact that ‘Urdu’ is a Turkish word and it literally means ‘lashkar’ or ‘army’ or ‘army camp’. Interestingly, there is hardly any language in the world that has not absorbed words from other languages.

English, being most ‘open’ of them all, has, according to David Crystal, borrowed from over 100 languages, but nobody has ever called English a mixture of different languages.

It was Mir Amman (1750-1837) who first presumed Urdu was born that way. In his preface to ‘Bagh-o-Bahar’ (1802), he wrote that Mughal emperor Shah Jahan (who reigned between 1628 and 1658) made Delhi his capital and named its bazaar ‘Urdu-e-moalla’. According to Hafiz Mahmood Sherani, what Mir Amman had written about Urdu’s origin was paraphrased by many writers over the next 100 years or so, and it included figures like Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, Muhammad Hussain Azad, Syed Ahmed Dehlvi (compiler of ‘Farhang-e-Aasifya’), Chiranji Lal (compiler of ‘Makhzan-e-muhavraat’), Imam Bakhsh Sehbai and, in the 20th century, Hakeem Shamsullah Qadri. This repetition naturally lent credence to the theory and it became ‘common knowledge’ that Urdu was a ‘camp language’, made up of words from different languages. Even scholars like A.F. Rudolf Hoernle and G.A. Grierson were misled and believed in the theory initially. But when Grierson carried out massive research on the dialects and languages of India he admitted his mistake. After writing in the ninth volume of his famous ‘Linguistic survey of India’ (1916) that “Literary Hindustani [Urdu] is based on the vernacular Hindustani spoken in the Upper Doab and in the Western Rohilkhand”, Grierson adds in the footnotes that “it will be noticed that this account of Hindustani and its origin differs widely from that which has been given hitherto by most authors (including the present writer), which was based on Mir Amman’s preface to the ‘Bagh-o-Bahar’. According to him Urdu was a mongrel mixture of the languages of the various tribes who flocked to the Delhi bazar”.

Now the question is: why is this theory of so-called camp language incorrect?

Hafiz Mahmood Sherani and Shams-ur-Rahman Farooqi have described in detail that the word Urdu was in use much earlier than the Mughal period and it had carried different nuances through centuries. The word ‘Urdu’ was used for this language much later, in fact in the last quarter of the 18th century, and in the beginning the word ‘Urdu’ had quite different meanings. Also, the Urdu language has had many names before the present nomenclature came in vogue. Those who are convinced that Urdu was born in Shah Jahan’s era ignore the fact that the Mughal era began in 1526 after Babar’s success at Panipat while poets like Ameer Khusrau (died 1325) had been composing poetry in Urdu much earlier than that. Even in Babar’s writings one can find quite a few Urdu words. In other words, the Urdu language did exist before Shah Jahan and it was there even before the name Urdu was given to it.

Those who believe in the ‘lashkari zaban’ myth perhaps think that it is possible to form a new language by combining two or more languages. This is not the case. Max Muller, the renowned linguist, has given us two guiding principles in this regard: one, the classification of a language and its relationship with the other language is based on morphological and syntactical structures of that language and vocabulary has very little importance in this regard; two, it is totally wrong and misleading to believe that by combining two or more languages a new, third language can be formed. A language may get enriched and strengthened by obtaining nourishment from the dialects and languages spoken in its surrounding geographical territories, but it is impossible for a language to form a new language by inter-mingling with another one.

A language takes centuries, even more, to evolve. It is a slow, long, constant, complex and natural process. A language ‘invented’ to serve a specific purpose, such as enabling the troops to communicate with one another, is labelled as ‘artificial’ by linguists. Though there have been hundreds of such attempts, some aimed at facilitating international communication between nations and peoples speaking different languages, none has been successful. Esperanto, a language formed with the basic roots of some European languages, died despite its early success. In other words, experiments to devise a language have failed and no artificial language could survive. Urdu, like other languages of the world, has been classified by linguists on the basis of its morphological and syntactical features. Urdu nouns and adjective can have a variety of origins, such as Arabic, Persian, Turkish, Pushtu and even Portuguese, but ninety-nine per cent of Urdu verbs have their roots in Sanskrit/Prakrit. So it is an Indo-Aryan language which is a branch of Indo-Iranian family, which in turn is a branch of Indo-European family of languages. According to Dr Gian Chand Jain, Indo-Aryan languages had three phases of evolution beginning around 1,500 BC and passing through the stages of Vedic Sanskrit, classical Sanskrit and Pali. They developed into Prakrit and Apbhransh, which served as the basis for the formation of later local dialects.

Around 1,000 AD, the modern Indo-Aryan era began and with the arrival of Muslims Arabic, Persian and, to a lesser extent, Turkish vocabulary began assimilating into local dialects. One of those dialects later evolved further and became an early version of Urdu/Hindi. Now the only question remaining unanswered is which dialect or dialects developed further to become a language that was basically one and was later divided into two languages, Hindi and Urdu, on the basis of two different scripts.

Though there are a number of theories about the origin of Urdu (that is, aside from camp language theory) that say, for example, Urdu has its origin in Punjabi, or it was born in Deccan or in Sindh, few have stood up to research based on historical linguistics and comparative linguistic. Of the theories considered to be holding water, the most plausible seems to be the one that says Urdu developed from some dialects spoken in and around Delhi in the 11th and 12th centuries AD. These dialects include Brij Bhasha, Mewati, Khari Boli and Haryani, which, in turn had developed from Apbhransh. The name Apbhransh refers to a number of languages/dialects which were born from Prakrit languages. The question that still requires a precise answer is: from which Apbhransh did Urdu originate? Some linguists believe it was most probably an offshoot of Shourseni Prakrit, spoken in and around Mathura. Dr Gian Chand Jain says it was Khari Boli.

In brief, Urdu is much older than just a few hundred years and its roots go right back to Sanskrit. At least, it has been established beyond doubt that Urdu is not a camp language.
Urdu’s origin: it’s not a ‘camp language’ - Newspaper - DAWN.COM
 
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Very hard. My parents were over the moon with delight. My grandfather, the Forest Service officer, had been a lifelong fan of the Americans, and disliked the British intensely, tuning in to forbidden radio stations during the war. My father was posted out to Cox's Bazar because the British had got over cherry-picking Bengalis for being nationalists and took other measures, like posting them to the frontiers. Both parts of the family were ardent nationalists, even as they were sticklers for the good personal qualities of the British.

Your thought that we regretted the passing of the British is typical of your thoughts in other directions, and this answer is only to set the record straight.

As I am leaving this forum, I no longer have to suffer your insinuations and barely-concealed spite and envy, and the deep regret of leaving the forum is tempered with delight at no longer having to deal with the likes of you.
sir' No ! you are not leaving just no

@WebMaster @Oscar @Slav Defence

please see that Joe sir doesn't leave , he is one of the best members this forum has
 
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1. Urdu evolved as a language among the soldiers of the Muslim rulers who recruited from C & W Asia and among locals. Thus this was commonly understood by all. Even the Portuguese, the French and the British found this easy to learn. During the Raj, officers posted in from England had to take a course in Urdu/Hindustani during the voyage. PA and IA even after partition continued to use training books and manuals written in Roman Urdu. Illiterate soldiers used to learn their trade in RU which was taught to them to make them literate. Ayub Khan had mulled using the Roman script for all Pakistanis. But by that time he had become unpopular so that the idea could not be mooted.

2. All over SA Muslims use Urdu as the link language. Whether in SL or S India or in Bengal, Muslims have been using Urdu to communicate with each other. In BD, as elsewhere in SA, the elite Muslims used Urdu as the mother tongue - yes, the mother tongue. As a casualty of '71, Urdu has been exiled from BD, but it is a state language in W Bengal. Muslims of Assam / NE also use this.

3. Sadly in India deliberate efforts are made to extinguish Urdu which holds much of our Muslim heritage and history. And sadly again, too much Persianization has set into the language in Pakistan. You find a vast difference in what people use in day to life and what is used as the formal language. The national anthem, for instance. What a fine tune, but how many Pakistanis understand what they are singing?

I think what you are referring to is "lingua-franca"...what I am talking about is "mother-tongue"...when you say elite Muslims in BD "used" Urdu...that is where it establishes as a lingua franca and ceases to be a mother tongue...You cannot choose your mother tongue..it is an ethnic thing...even if a person does not speak Bangla but are direct descendants of people who speak it their mother tongue is still Bangla.
 
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@Joe Shearer
Off-topic but, since I am unauthorized to post in the Seniors Cafe then I'll post it here instead. Since, you are leaving this forum I would like to say thank you for providing a large amount of information on history and current events around India and the rest of the subcontinent. I especially appreciate you telling the historical tale of your family's history before partition. It is upsetting to see you leave as I have not personally been on this forum for that long. Anyway, I wish you the best and hopefully if you're bored you'll decide to pop in one day! Farewell.
 
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sir' No ! you are not leaving just no

@WebMaster @Oscar @Slav Defence

please see that Joe sir doesn't leave , he is one of the best members this forum has
You are senior enough to have some influence over here...could you ask the admins to make a even more restricted section for Professionals..Veterans..Think Tanks only...it should be visible to everyone but only high rankers can participate..this should make serious discussions more civilized...Seniors section doesn't really work..anybody can troll their to reach the post limit to become a senior.Plz consider.
 
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You are senior enough to have some influence over here...could you ask the admins to make a even more restricted section for Professionals..Veterans..Think Tanks only...it should be visible to everyone but only high rankers can participate..this should make serious discussions more civilized...Seniors section doesn't really work..anybody can troll their to reach the post limit to become a senior.Plz consider.

@WebMaster

Please consider this request. I feel it is a good point. Thank you.
 
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Urdu speaking voters likely to play decisive role | The Daily Star

December 25, 2015 / LAST MODIFIED: 12:00 AM, December 25, 2015
Saidpur Municipality
Urdu speaking voters likely to play decisive role


EAM Asaduzzaman
A crowded railway town by tradition, Saidpur has long been home to a significant Urdu-speaking community. The forefathers of many arrived in the British period from Uttar Pradesh, Bihar and other parts of India to pursue careers in the railway workshops. Still others fled communal violence to arrive after Partition.

In the upcoming municipal elections, the support of Saidpur's Urdu speakers will likely be decisive.

“The votes of the Urdu-speaking community always play a crucial role,” says Abdul Hafiz, the principal of Saidpur College and a well-known local historian.

While Urdu-speakers account for 25 of the 74 candidates who will contest the 15 councillor seats, there is no Urdu-speaking candidate running for the post of mayor.

Nonetheless, for a minority community anywhere in the country it is rare to wield such electoral clout, and for Urdu speakers in Bangladesh, Saidpur is undoubtedly unique.

According to the upazila election office, of the 81,500 registered voters in the first class municipality, 60% speak Urdu as a first language.

In light of such statistics, mayoral and councillor candidates of all persuasions have been making efforts to appeal to Urdu speakers in preparation for the upcoming polls.

A rare sound in Bangladesh, loudspeaker campaign announcements in Urdu are likely to suprise any visitor. But in Saidpur, any serious election campaign must be conducted bilingually.

Although the community lost some of its dominance after the Liberation War, during which many Urdu-speakers supported Pakistan and subsequently migrated there, Urdu-speakers remain influential in the area's cultural, political and economic life.

Yet which way they will vote is becoming harder to predict. Traditionally it has been assumed that Urdu speakers favour BNP-backed mayoral candidates, with a succession of them having been elected. But in more recent times circumstances have changed.

“The issue of the war criminal trials may have given Urdu speakers reason to reconsider their vote,” says railway workers' leader Aminur Rahman, “It could be reflected in the upcoming poll.”

President of the Urdu Welfare Society, Ashraful Islam Babu, has also observed a break with the past. “We made an historical mistake in 1971,” he says, “Many supported the Pakistani Army due to political ignorance. Nowadays we want to intermingle with all people in this country and take pragmatic decisions when casting votes.”
 
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You are senior enough to have some influence over here...could you ask the admins to make a even more restricted section for Professionals..Veterans..Think Tanks only...it should be visible to everyone but only high rankers can participate..this should make serious discussions more civilized...Seniors section doesn't really work..anybody can troll their to reach the post limit to become a senior.Plz consider.

That is a great idea in principle.
However, there is "a rub"...... Many members of those categories that you mention have no qualifications to even be anointed with such "labels". Their writings (or fulminations) here are clear evidence of that already.
Reminds me of the days when Dynasties ruled in many parts of the world; and Sycophants, Charlatans, Concubines, Clowns and Eunuchs got elevated to Royal Courts. Even to rub shoulders with some of the "professionals" here would leave a stain on my erstwhile uniform........
But love your ideation, nonetheless.
 
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