The Pilot Factor

[Chogy]

Comparing the USAF and Russian pilots on use of human instincts over instruments.....Who is more susceptible to crach if the instruments fail?
USAF

Russian

Safriz, these are some really entertaining videos, but perhaps a bit misleading. The Hornet pilot is doing a solo air show demo practice run. Especially cool are when he dials up the "G" and the vapor trails off the strakes stream back. Also cool is the little known phenomenon of just how violently the tail feathers and wing vibrate under load. This can be felt as a deep rumbling, and it tells the pilot he is at a high AOA, approaching a stall.

Now, the MiG pilot... the first thing I noticed was how he has caged his eyes to his right and slightly up... and they don't move. Right away I knew he was number 2, or 3, in a four ship formation. He is flying a thunderbirds or blue angels type of wingman position. When you fly close formation, 100% of your attention is focused on lead. He is looking at positional cues from him. His hands are working furiously at maintaining position.

When you fly wing, you simply don't look anywhere else except for very brief glances. That's how it's done. You have to trust your lead to fly the formation properly. We have had more than one 4 ship crash as an entity because lead screwed up and flew into a mountain, and all the formation members followed him right in.

 

[DARKY]

DARKY..
from the PG pilot.
Q.You think the American guy was right about the sukhoi's faults?
A."There are more techniques to tackle the Sukhoi in visual range than mentioned in the video"
Q.What about their Off-boresight Missile?
"We have a better match for their Heat seekers"(rest was stuff I am not comfortable posting here)
Q.But they have a big radar and BVR?
A "It is an advantage for them but we have tactics to negate that, Their range is a problem as they can run away from us but we cannot. The JF will take care of that.

The person in question was shown the section limited to the MKI so I asked questions pertinent to that.
Most PAF personnel though, have not seen that video... except senior staff and perhaps those who were interested/informed.

Yeah there are techniques the video mentions only one such...technique... a victory in WVR depends on How much load the plane is carrying and offcourse the pilot factor.... even then the kinematics favor the MKI heavily... (turn rates, Climb rate etc....) Usually a F-16 would not match it... the better thing would be to play safe and wait for the opportunity... however that guy would know better.

Yes you have better match in the American missile... Aim9L is quiet magical.... but we would soon see MKIs with R-74 the Russian equivalent to Aim9X... Besides we should also consider the Israeli Python series seriously.

The Big radar not only helps to bail out of the encounter but also arrange the encounter in your own terms... however this does not offer much of an advantage since F-16 would be under AWACS cover and get help from ground radars.... the thing which might make the difference here is the ECM and jamming ability which MKI have over F-16... It can always outnumber it... jam it and get it in a proper frame for a perfect kill...

I believe thats what we all know nothing much of a new information here... every AF develops its methods and means to counter the opposite one with their own resources.... I would expect the same from PAF officers.... be It Su 30MKI, F-22, or PAK FA...

But thanks once again for take your time.... well appreciated.

 

[SQ8]

Yeah there are techniques the video mentions only one such...technique... a victory in WVR depends on How much load the plane is carrying and offcourse the pilot factor.... even then the kinematics favor the MKI heavily... (turn rates, Climb rate etc....) Usually a F-16 would not match it... the better thing would be to play safe and wait for the opportunity... however that guy would know better.

Yes you have better match in the American missile... Aim9L is quiet magical.... but we would soon see MKIs with R-74 the Russian equivalent to Aim9X... Besides we should also consider the Israeli Python series seriously.

The Big radar not only helps to bail out of the encounter but also arrange the encounter in your own terms... however this does not offer much of an advantage since F-16 would be under AWACS cover and get help from ground radars.... the thing which might make the difference here is the ECM and jamming ability which MKI have over F-16... It can always outnumber it... jam it and get it in a proper frame for a perfect kill...

I believe thats what we all know nothing much of a new information here... every AF develops its methods and means to counter the opposite one with their own resources.... I would expect the same from PAF officers.... be It Su 30MKI, F-22, or PAK FA...

But thanks once again for take your time.... well appreciated.

Just as a final add on..

The weapon the PG pilot mentioned is not the 9L..

Moreover, you are looking at it just as an F-16 taking on the MKI.
In fluid space of air combat.. I doubt it will always be the MKI vs F-16 or the JFvs it.
In any given time.. multiples of aircraft could be engaging and disengaging.

 

[DARKY]

Then it could be the Mike version.... as far as I know PAF was asking for it from US long time back... BTW Lima-I-1(European version) is supposed to as good as M.

That was just for a plane to plane comparison... yes no matter what there would always be JF-17s, and F-7PGs aswell.... while from IAF side Mig 29s, M2K and Mig-21bis would join in..... still I would conclude that Su 30, Mig 29, M2K would be on par with the latest F-16block52 and above JF-17 and F-7PG in most of the scenario.

 

[Storm Force]

Darky

That is the single most important EQUATION of this whole debate

Other than F16 52/mlu which number 64 planes WAT ELSE CAN GO TOE TOE against nearly 300 SU30MKI, MIRAGE2000-5 MIG29SMT & MIG29K .

Can the Thunder MK1 best a upgraded MIRAGE2000-5 carrying mica BVRs or in deed a upgraded MIG29SMT and the even better naval MIG29K

F7PG is in the same bracket as the upgraded MIG21 bison .

 

[anathema]

DARKY..
from the PG pilot.
Q.You think the American guy was right about the sukhoi's faults?
A."There are more techniques to tackle the Sukhoi in visual range than mentioned in the video"
Q.What about their Off-boresight Missile?
"We have a better match for their Heat seekers"(rest was stuff I am not comfortable posting here)
Q.But they have a big radar and BVR?
A "It is an advantage for them but we have tactics to negate that, Their range is a problem as they can run away from us but we cannot. The JF will take care of that.

The person in question was shown the section limited to the MKI so I asked questions pertinent to that.
Most PAF personnel though, have not seen that video... except senior staff and perhaps those who were interested/informed.

Amazing how you all have so easy access to Armed forces professionals..Back in India -- its very hard to come by and a couple of people i know from Army - just tell me blankly - you are not supposed to know what you shouldnt know. Anyways nice..One question i have here is -- what did PG pilot mean when he refered JF for the range ?

 

[Donatello]

Santro,

You are wasting your time and effort for people that it doesn't matter.

You will give them a tale by an Indian Pilot, and if he was praising PAF the Indians would still not believe you.

I'd say lay rest here, as there is no point. They will keep asking questions and keep raising issues. I mean, seriously guys, WTF.

 

[SQ8]

Then it could be the Mike version.... as far as I know PAF was asking for it from US long time back... BTW Lima-I-1(European version) is supposed to as good as M.

That was just for a plane to plane comparison... yes no matter what there would always be JF-17s, and F-7PGs aswell.... while from IAF side Mig 29s, M2K and Mig-21bis would join in..... still I would conclude that Su 30, Mig 29, M2K would be on par with the latest F-16block52 and above JF-17 and F-7PG in most of the scenario.

No its not the Mike either..
Not US at all.

---------- Post added at 02:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:39 PM ----------

Amazing how you all have so easy access to Armed forces professionals..Back in India -- its very hard to come by and a couple of people i know from Army - just tell me blankly - you are not supposed to know what you shouldnt know. Anyways nice..One question i have here is -- what did PG pilot mean when he refered JF for the range ?

Perhaps that is due to the fact that I too have a foot in the knowns and unknowns?
That said, our society and mindset is different.
There are a lot of known knowns and unknown knowns that literally float around the right channels without anyone noticing.

By range.. the JF's radar plus datalink

 

[anathema]

By range.. the JF's radar plus datalink

Got it..But so should be a F16 , presumably PAF F16 is already using Link 16 and also i believe it has better range than KLJ 7 ?

 

[SQ8]

Got it..But so should be a F16 , presumably PAF F16 is already using Link 16 and also i believe it has better range than KLJ 7 ?

No to the range comparison.. but at the moment presumptions will be best at this juncture.

 

[Whiplash]

Darky

That is the single most important EQUATION of this whole debate

Other than F16 52/mlu which number 64 planes WAT ELSE CAN GO TOE TOE against nearly 300 SU30MKI, MIRAGE2000-5 MIG29SMT & MIG29K .

Can the Thunder MK1 best a upgraded MIRAGE2000-5 carrying mica BVRs or in deed a upgraded MIG29SMT and the even better naval MIG29K

F7PG is in the same bracket as the upgraded MIG21 bison .

The F7PG does not carry BVR. The bison does. I'd say the F7PG is more comparable to the Mig 21 bis.
Whatever. In the end I'd say they're both outdated obsolete aircraft that both our AFs should be retiring

 

[DARKY]

Darky

That is the single most important EQUATION of this whole debate

Other than F16 52/mlu which number 64 planes WAT ELSE CAN GO TOE TOE against nearly 300 SU30MKI, MIRAGE2000-5 MIG29SMT & MIG29K .

Can the Thunder MK1 best a upgraded MIRAGE2000-5 carrying mica BVRs or in deed a upgraded MIG29SMT and the even better naval MIG29K

F7PG is in the same bracket as the upgraded MIG21 bison .

JF-17 is the black horse I would say here... since we know very little about it.... how will its radar function which actually is a scaled down version of the one which our earlier Mig 29s used... more so Is its BVR weapons... with China only recently jumping in the BVR pool with all those RE AAMs It would be a great success even If they pull out performances similar to what the earliest version of Aim120C did... apart from that F-16 is always there but its number is way too less.

A common notion which I have seen in the subcontinent pilots is that they don't consider a delta winged fighter for air superiority missions both IAF and PAF M2K is an excellent Air to Air plane and has done very well in that role however I see it being used in Air to Ground role more often.. Again the notion is set to change with IAF buying MMRCA abd PAF buying J-10 both being a delta winged platform.

Apart form that I would Not consider F-7PG in the same bracket with Mig21bis since the latter posses better Electronic capabilities... thanks to the elta jammers which have a reputation of jamming even AN/APG 66/68 & 63/70 the radars used on USAF F-16 and F-15.... not to mention the R-77 which is in all way a better missile than PL-12/SD-10.

---------- Post added at 01:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:34 AM ----------

No its not the Mike either..
Not US at all.

I won't dig you any further on this.

 

[Storm Force]

Darky

Those MIG21 bisons airframes must so fatigued by now. They are so old and dangerous to fly 40 years +

AT LEAST THE F7 airframes are new ie only 15 years in some cases.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

JF-17 is the black horse I would say here... since we know very little about it.... how will its radar function which actually is a scaled down version of the one which our earlier Mig 29s used

It uses the smaller version of KLJ-10....Used on J-10A.... KLJ-7...With the reported detection range of 150KM.... Further blocks will use AESA... I wonder if the earlier mig 29s used KLJ-10.

more so Is its BVR weapons... with China only recently jumping in the BVR pool with all those RE AAMs It would be a great success even If they pull out performances similar to what the earliest version of Aim120C did... apart from that F-16 is always there but its number is way too less.

A common notion which I have seen in the subcontinent pilots is that they don't consider a delta winged fighter for air superiority missions both IAF and PAF M2K is an excellent Air to Air plane and has done very well in that role however I see it being used in Air to Ground role more often.. Again the notion is set to change with IAF buying MMRCA abd PAF buying J-10 both being a delta winged platform.

Apart form that I would Not consider F-7PG in the same bracket with Mig21bis since the latter posses better Electronic capabilities... thanks to the elta jammers which have a reputation of jamming even AN/APG 66/68 & 63/70 the radars used on USAF F-16 and F-15.... not to mention the R-77 which is in all way a better missile than PL-12/SD-10..

mig-21 jamming F-15,F-16s...
SD-10A vs R-77.. Nough said man!

 

[DARKY]

Darky

Those MIG21 bisons airframes must so fatigued by now. They are so old and dangerous to fly 40 years +

AT LEAST THE F7 airframes are new ie only 15 years in some cases.

All what Mig21 has to do is fly shoot and run.... wonder how much stress it would have on its air frame besides Bison air frame is relatively new i.e they from the last batch of Mig 21s which came around 2000s... when the assembly line of HAL was closed to welcome the larger Su 30s.