The Pilot Factor

[DESERT FIGHTER]

enjoy penumbra.

mig21 bison beat usa f15

Mig-21 " Bison " surprises US F-16 in Cope India 2005 - ED Forums

kerala news?lol

You were one of the guys trolling on the PAF F-16s blk 15/30s beating italian eurofighters?

 

[Donatello]

enjoy penumbra.

mig21 bison beat usa f15

Mig-21 " Bison " surprises US F-16 in Cope India 2005 - ED Forums

Did you even bother to go through the forum posts?

F-15 radar will see and lock on Mig 21s with their AMRAAM from long long away. This is just perhaps another case like the Chinese Song class showing up against a USN Aircraft Carrier.....whereas it was being tracked all way.

Pit Mig-21s against F-15s with their full potential and Migs would be toast soon.

I mean, lesson learned from your post.......discard all F-15s....go back to Mig 21s.

Yeah...

 

[SQ8]

I think you got confused, i was not talking about F7-Papa, rather AIM 9-Papa.

According to my knownledge, PAF also acquired upgrade kits for AIM Lima-Papa, My question is, Will Lima & Papa both be upgraded to Mike, or only Lima upgraded to Mike and Papas retired ?

On your point, I fore see F7PGs forming the bulk of OCC squadrons, and i would specially like if they remain so, and it may even happen that PAF may acuire some more just for their dedicated OCC units, as it will be futile to get rookies straight into Thunders and Vipers for OCC.

Note to all who didnt understand: Lima=L, Papa=P, Mike=M, OCC=Operational Capability Conversion

Regards,
Sapper

Sir.. the PG's may very well end up dropping the winder completely for a more versatile weapon.

 

[SQ8]

i have been thanked over 900 times in this forum
from all nationals including pakistanis. SO my maturity may not be so bad.

Not that I am saying anything.. but you do realize that those thanks arent all for your famed "knowledge" of Aerial warfare..
and that some were pressed by mistake.. I even had a Bangali member asking me how to remove thanks for you once.
And then offcourse.. if its a punter like me.. Id thank you.. as a joke on the rest of the forum.

Bringing in thanks count is a reaaally bad way to prove yourself here.

Btw.. I see Darky is here with his MKI and Kopp inspired theories and exaggerated figures.

For the more serious discussion..
N-eagle.. lets keep the BVR details off this thread.. I think we have said enough here.

 

[cyphercide]

Santro,

what does 'ANG' expand into?Is it the Air National Guard?Dang,that one slipped my mind...must learn to google stuff more....would be easier if all you experts spoke plain English for a change,eh

 

[untitled]

Santro,

what does 'ANG' expand into?Is it the Air National Guard?Dang,that one slipped my mind...should learn to google stuff more....would be easier if all you experts spoke plain English for a change,eh

ANG. The American Air Force reserve units. Every State has one

 

[cyphercide]

ANG. The American Air Force reserve units. Every State has one

Yeah.It gets confusing at times.Can you really blame me? A typical post in PDF reads like;

I was on my PSP when I got this OTH SMS on my GPE,so I dropped my KFC and FYI FWIW it was TMI and I was like...WTF?

SITD?Join the club!!!

 

[Luftwaffe]

Notrius

F7PG a 4th generation aircraft.THE HIGH MARK EXCERCISE WAS A WVR DOG FIGHT

I am talking about a BVR engagment. IN CASE YOU ARE AS SLEEP for the last decade " you may have missed the point that IAF is training to fight a BVR war. THIS IS WHY they field over 400 bvr capable fighters. F7PG cannot fight BVR scenario

F7PG versis a PAF F16 IN 2010 (F16 block a/b) = non bvr engagement. F7PG VERSIS SU30MKI = wvr v BVR (in 2010 paf had no F16 block 52)
PS i have been thanked over 900 times in this forum from all nationals including pakistanis. SO my maturity may not be so bad. TAKE YOUR HATE AWAY PLZ

Is BVR even a fight? BVR is an up straight Advantage indeed air superiority. When you are in a close combat then it is up to the Pilots, example would be mig-21 pilot against isreali Mirage even though isrealis training prevailed. That is if you are saying IAF is only sticking to BVRs is extremely poor Air War Tactics-Training, every Pilot must be trained for Close combat, here comes the Dog Fight, this is the real engagement, surprised you said iaf relies on bvrs you are embarrassing iaf. F-7PG can prove to be extremely potent over its airspace PAF is extremely well versed in close combat.

 

[DARKY]

Dear,

Your figures are totally wrong. You have no understanding of airforce do you. Airforces all over log 300+ hours per pilot in training role. All recruits fly ~250+ hr/yr, and their trainers log much more very easily. Now what comes after that is OCU, in which they log around 200+ on jets. Transport/Heli is a whole other ball game so i wont go into that. Sticking only to fighters, 200+ hr/yr on fighter squadron is very good. No doubt about it.

Your figure of 300 for MKI is wrong, but even if I be a sport and agree to your expertise for the sake of argument, half of Su30s pilot hours are GIBS arent they?

That is were the difference lies. PAF has mostly single seats, and logging one hour is purely pilot's own experience. Try matching PAF's 200+ hr/yr solo experience. Besides PAF (as does IAF) maintain a very very detailed record of how much ferry-hours, gibs-hours, currency-hours, etc etc every single pilot logged, and much more, and then you would know the difference between the currency missions flown by a PAF pilot and an InAF pilot. Try to get hold of an InAF pilot and ask him about this and he might tell you details about their currency mission stats and what he might about same of PAF, but i do know that PAF's mission stats are classified, and InAF would be the same. If a friend tells you in confidence, that will be your lucky day.

Regards,
Sapper

It did sound absurd to me when I 1st came to know... However I Inquired a few concerned people in the field and got to know that a regular at Barelly clocks above 200 yearly... while the veterans at Pune have been clocking about 300+... I know its hard to digest but normally a MKI mission is of more than twice the duration of that which a M2K does here... It might be a little easier for people to know about the Flights hours stats of PAF considering the level and amount of insider information they keep on spilling over.. but for IAF even your relatives don't tell you.

 

[DARKY]

Where did you get this BS?

Provide an evidence.

Why don't you look for yourself... Its available every where.

 

[DARKY]

Btw.. I see Darky is here with his MKI and Kopp inspired theories and exaggerated figures.

Kopp does not know about the Flying hours made by an MKI pilot in IAF... BTW do tell how many PAF pilots make up 220 hrs/annum on F-16 or any jet for that matter... I had an interview of a very reputed pilot of PAF who flew many jets talking about the flying hours made by PAF pilots and according to him 200hrs were for USAF pilots for them even 180 was perhaps the best they could make and that was from 1993... when PAF was at its prime.

Here's the Interview Ignore my mistakes in the above part of this post.

S/L Sameen Mazhar joined the Pakistani Air Force (Pakistan Fiza'ya) in October 1980, and after four years of rigorous training and academics at the PAF College at Sargodha, he was awarded a bachelors degree in Aerosciences. He then went to the Air Force Academy at Risalpur for flying training. After 1 1/2 year of flying training, including primary and basic jet flying on T-37 a/c, he was awarded his "wings" and was commissioned as a "pilot officer" in the G D(P) (general duty pilot) branch of the PAF in 1985. In Pakistan, this is quite an achievement, since the attrition rate during various tests and phases was almost 50%. Only half of the cadets could make it to the pilot officer rank during these five years.


Fiza'ya F-16, J-6 (Chinese MiG-19), Q-5 Fantan and a Mirage

S/L Mazhar did his fighter conversion on the Mig-17, and, thanks to his excellent flying skills was directly sent to the Mirage OCU (normally, after fighter conversion, all PAF pilots are sent to the F-6 (Sheniyang-built MiG-19, aka J-6) OCU or the F-7P (Sheniyang-built MiG-21, aka J-7). After successfully completing Mirage conversion, he was posted to Nr. 8 Tactical Attack sqn equipped with the Mirage V PA3. There he specialized in the Air to Sea role. From there he was posted to Nr. 11 OCU for conversion on the viper in 1990 after which he was assigned to Nr. 9 Multi role sqn. S/L Mazhar also flew the F-16 in the prestegious "Combat Commanders" School of the PAF, where he took an advanced course similar to USN Fighter Weapons School (Topgun).

How long have you flown the Viper and how many hours do you have on the F-16 ?

I have been flying the viper since 1990. But there was a break of 2 1/2 years in between when I did a tenure as a Flight Instructor in PAF Academy. Due to some restrictions, we do not fly as much as USAF or Turkish AF pilots do, therefore I only have about 500 Hrs on the F-16.

How would you compare the F-16 to the other aircraft types you flew ?

Well, in a nutshell, Mig is potent but lacks sophistication, but mind you if a good pilot is sitting in a Mig, it takes a while to get him in your HUD. Mirage comes no where close to the Viper in air combat, but for its role, surface attack, its a beautiful platform.


A line-up of PAF J-7s (Left) and JJ-5s (Right)

What is the principal role of the F-16 in the PAF ?

Although the principal role of Pakistani F-16 is Air Defence, it is utilized as a true multi role aircraft in our Air Force. We are extensively using the F-16 in various roles like strike, deep interdiction, escort etc.

Is there a difference in the roles of the three sqns ? Which squadron did you enjoy most serving with ?

Yes. Apart from the operational flying, Nr. 11 OCU has to fulfill the task of being the sole F-16 conversion unit for the PAF. CCS is purely an advanced tactics school for section leaders during their mid career. I enjoyed all the three assignments as I was flying the F-16.

What are the consequences of pakistan's geographical location for the Pakistani Air Force, and for the Pakistan F-16s in particular ?

I don't want to go in detail in this matter but due to obvious reasons of Russian invasion / unrest in Afghanistan in the west, and India's vision of becoming a mini superpower in the south east Asia, on our east, PAF has to keep a vigilant eye all along its border to defend the sovereignty of its country. The F-16s are the only a/c equipped with the latest avionics suite which can effectively fulfill this task therefore it puts them under tremendous pressure as far as the responsibility is concerned.

The PAF is one of the few airforces whose F-16s saw actual combat. How does this affect the Pakistani AF and its F-16 pilots ? What were the circumstances of those engagements ?

Pretty long question !!!!!!! It has made a pakistani pilot more wise I would say, and Air Force on the whole, as far as the employment of the F-16 is concerned. We have devised new tactics and educated our non AI equipped a/c pilots how to handle a situation if they are pitched against an AI equipped threat. In the beginning the Russians and the Afghanis were really flying like bafoons, but later they also learnt how to employ their a/c. They used split level tactics and played with numbers (typical Russian doctrine), in the end, to increase the task of the viper pilots. At time a single viper had to play with six to eight adversaries and mind you this is no exaggeration !!!!!!!!

What is life in a PAF F-16 sqn like ? Do you think the sqn life in the PAF is different from sqn life in other airforces ?

Life in a PAF F-16 sqn is quite tough; to be very frank. Due to the diversity of the role, the pilots are trained in almost all the roles. We do not have pilots specialised in only one role. You can very comfortably call them multi role pilots !!!!! This calls for full time dedication and hard work on the part of the pilots to maintain standards alongwith normal flying and 24 hours air defence alert duties. We really mean bussiness here in the F-16 sqns.

What flight profiles (air-air; air-ground,...) do you enjoy most and why ?

My favourite is the ESCORT role. It is a true blend of surface attack and air-air at low level. I think it's the ultimate you can derive out of a viper, though it demands a lot of training, there's no match pivoting a viper at 250 feet AGL, keeping an eye on the radar scope, watching your tail and shoot as well !

Do you have particularly fond memories of a specific deployment or exercise ?

HIGHMARK 93 - one of the major exercises PAF conducts. I had twenty five "confirmed" kills in air during a twelve day period, the highest for any pilot in any exercise of the PAF.

Thanks for the interview!

Here are the flying hours made by various F-16 pilots on the bird we can see how many PAF pilots are in there... other than USAF the TuAF pilots and Singapore AF hold very good numbers.

http://www.f-16.net/pilots.html

Only 36 PAF pilots have been able to make up 1000 or more hours on a F-16 till now of which 7 have retired which makes the total at 29 and about a dozen expected to retire soon.

http://www.f-16.net/index.php?module=Pagesetter&tid=62&filter1=country:eq:195&page=1

Compare that with IAF which already have about 2-3 squadrons with above 1000 hours on MKI and the number is increasing not even the 1st batch of squadron who flew Su 30K have retired.... Not to mention the Flying hours on M2k and Mig 29.

 

[ARIZ ZAFAR]

Patriotism aside, what i have learnt in US is that the IAF is actually the best airforce in Asia. they have done fairly well in the international exercises. PAF on the other hand has been paralyzed by the so called leadership. Training for both IAF and PAF are up to the mark, but IAF have an array of aircrafts. their pilots clock more flying hours than even our PAF pilots. India is a actually emerged from 60's era and they have concentrated on their potential very nicely. but in our country every single time we think we are loosing, we will bring up the pilot training to feel good and safe. it's a complete nonsense, IAF achieved success in red flag and they never violated any rules of engagement. on the other side every one knows how we performed in those exercises.

 

[Ganga]

"about half a dozen shot down by Pakistan and the Kashmiri Mujahideen in Jammu & Kashmir in 1999"

when did this hapn ...? really, did terrorists shoot down our planes /choppers ..?

It never happened.Only three crafts were lost in operations.One Mil Mi-17 one Mig-21 and one Mig-27.It is a well documented fact that the last one went down due to an engine flame out that occurred due to the smoke plume of the rockets .The middle one went down while trying to locate the Mig-27 pilot.The Mi-17 went down due to our mistake.Flares were not provided to that particular Mil-17.The author must get his facts right before writing another self praise article.

 

[Manas]

Dogfight! India's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft Decision ...

http://carnegieendowment.org/files/dogfight.pdf

 

[Ganga]

There is no "general consensus" of opinion that Pakistani pilots are better than their Indian counterparts as the article states.Such a school of thought exists only in Pakistan.TBH it is beneficial for India because such thoughts would lead to over confidence on the Pakistani side which will help India .Remarks by some American analysts post 65 and 71 have also lead to the growth of such thoughts.Analysts like Chuck Yeager praised the PAF but how many people over here know that an Indian hunter blasted his personal jet to pieces .In fact so anti-India was Chuck that the American ambassador to Pakistan had to request him to stop his anti-India rhetoric.I remember reading an article a while back where it was mentioned that in any air force there are three kinds of pilots.The exceptional ones , ones who are not very good initially but become exceptional due to peer pressure and finally the ones who are mediocre.This is the reason why some squadrons did very well in 65 while some others performed poorly.All the good ones were stuffed in few select squadrons.This problem was rectified before 71.