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The movie Jinnah, your opinions?

It seems to me that you neither know nor care what is a Vedantist.



Sorry, didn't notice. Yours is the more authentic, in the sense, closer to the interview and its wordings.
Please don't post till you have manners. Don't teach me to have manners. A lot of your posts are rubbish filled with sarcasm.

Point is Jinnah was fighting for the political rights of the Muslim community, but the Congress party were not taking the Muslim community seriously enough and thus partition happened.

Whatever good riddance to bad garbage (India) if you ask me. Why should we share our resources with the other communities in South Asia.

But for the Vedantists, it was Muslims vs Vedantist.

I never claimed he was fundamentalist or extremist.
He spent time in the Congress working for unity, however he saw with his OWN eyes, what would become of Muslims, it was his experience working with Vedantist politicians that led him to becoming disillusioned with Congress.
Exactly, Jinnah was called the ambassador of Muslim-Hindu unity.

But Jinnah saw the dishonesty of the Congress party towards the Muslim community.
Thus it became clear that the Congress party could not be trusted.
 
@Joe Shearer

No sir. Jinnah was not for Pakistan at least until 1920. Only when he could not grow in Congress he left and took up the issue of Muslim rights. He was a Gujju after all and knew how to play politics.


Jinnah, Tilak and Indian independence movement
March 17, 2010
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KARACHI Karachiites on Tuesday had the privilege of listening to the comments of A.G. Noorani at the third lecture in the 'Culture, Politics and Change in South Asia' series currently running at the Mohatta Palace Museum. Following talks by historian Ayesha Jalal and diplomat Mani Shankar Aiyar, Noorani's lecture offered yet another perspective on Quaid-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah.

Much like Jalal, Noorani calls for scholars and the public at large in both India and Pakistan to revisit Jinnah's person and political legacy in an attempt to better understand this region's history. He argues that it is important for Indians to reclaim Jinnah as a freedom fighter and integral figure in their own history, while Pakistanis need to acknowledge that the founder of their nation made some mistakes.

Noorani is an advocate of the Indian Supreme Court, a historian, and the author of 'Jinnah and Tilak Comrades in the Freedom Struggle', a new book on which his talk was loosely based. He is also, as he puts it, one of the dwindling group of individuals who saw Jinnah in the flesh.

In his talk and the following question and answer session, Noorani described the important yet forgotten relationship between Jinnah and Lokmanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak, a popular leader of the Indian independence movement. Noorani explains that Jinnah's commitment to Indian freedom was in many ways informed by his relations with Tilak and another Indian National Congress leader, Gopal Krishna Gokhale.

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In 1916, Jinnah defended Tilak when he was charged with sedition, ultimately securing his acquittal. Initially, Noorani explained, Tilak had wanted to fight the case with a political spin, but Jinnah insisted that the defence proceed on legal grounds alone. Once the case was over, Jinnah also facilitated Tilak's reentry into the Congress party and became his partner in the signing of the historic Lucknow Pact the same year.

In the liveliest parts of his talk, Noorani described the unlikely relationship between Tilak and Jinnah — one a “man of the masses”, the other a “club goer.” The two would meet every other day in bazaars, cloth markets, and at Shantaram Chawl, where public meetings were often held. Indeed, Noorani argued that this friendship was one of the cornerstones of Hindu-Muslim unity in the pre-Partition era.

Noorani also took the opportunity to dispel many myths about Jinnah. For instance, he disagreed with the statement that Jinnah politically came into his own on March 23, 1940. He pointed out that although Jinnah was an active member of the Central Legislative Assembly and the head of a thriving legal practice, he would take time out to go to Delhi and sit in on debates on public issues such as the motor vehicles and shipping acts. Noorani also pointed out that many of the political terms such as “direct action” that Jinnah is now known for germinated in the 1920s.

The theory that Jinnah introduced religion to politics was also debunked. Noorani stated that Jinnah was a liberal social reformer who believed that “scurrilous attacks on religion are wrong, but reasonable critiques [of religion] should be protected by the law.” Interesting anecdotes peppered Noorani's answers to the audience's questions and in one instance he recalled that Jinnah refused to refer to the nationalist brothers Shaukat Ali and Muhammad Ali as 'maulanas.' At the same time, he was never acerbic towards Gandhi, who consistently inserted religion in politics.

Noorani also took issue with Jinnah's portrayal as an elitist. In addition to citing the fact that Jinnah and Tilak regularly met in spaces populated by the masses, he defended Jinnah's ability to speak Gujrati, which biographer Stanley Wolpert has written was weak. According to Noorani, it was impossible for a practising lawyer in Mumbai not to speak fluent Gujrati. He also quoted an incident in which Jinnah gave an interview to a Gujrati-language paper in which he explained that his involvement with the League was part of an effort to be closer to the masses.

Explaining Jinnah's stance on civil disobedience, Noorani added that it was more a case of concern than opposition — were the Indians prepared for [the civil disobedience movement]? Had schools and colleges been readied? When should he stop practising law? These were the questions, Noorani explained, that Jinnah grappled with at the time.

The perception that Jinnah was hell-bent on securing a separate state for Muslims from the start of his political career was also discussed. Noorani mentioned that this issue was not a main feature of the Round Table Conferences and described Jinnah as an “in house critic” for the duration of the Quit India Movement.

After defending Jinnah on several points, Noorani did point to his mistakes as well. He emphasised, for example, the fact that Jinnah did not think through Partition and its repercussions properly. “He didn't think about the territorial limits being agreed to, the exchange of populations, the fate of minorities,” Noorani asserted. He also pointed out that in the years before Partition, Jinnah's manner became increasingly “abrasive.”

Ultimately, Noorani's talk, and the thesis of his book, were received by many in the audience as an invitation to revisit Jinnah's early political career and consider how his main political demand for many years was not for a separate homeland for Muslims, but for an independent India in which the rights of Muslims were protected.

A good find.

Also, I have read somewhere that quite a few Pakistanis protested against the film because Jinnah was portrayed by Christopher Lee who had in turn portrayed Dracula.
 
A good find.

Also, I have read somewhere that quite a few Pakistanis protested against the film because Jinnah was portrayed by Christopher Lee who had in turn portrayed Dracula.
Even jaswant singh rejected the garbage points by joe shearer

A good find.

Also, I have read somewhere that quite a few Pakistanis protested against the film because Jinnah was portrayed by Christopher Lee who had in turn portrayed Dracula.
So what if christopher lee played dracula. Christopher lee did a good job of playing Jinnah in the movie.
 
Please don't post till you have manners. Don't teach me to have manners. A lot of your posts are rubbish filled with sarcasm.

Point is Jinnah was fighting for the political rights of the Muslim community, but the Congress party were not taking the Muslim community seriously enough and thus partition happened.

Whatever good riddance to bad garbage (India) if you ask me. Why should we share our resources with the other communities in South Asia.


Exactly, Jinnah was called the ambassador of Muslim-Hindu unity.

But Jinnah saw the dishonesty of the Congress party towards the Muslim community.
Thus it became clear that the Congress party could not be trusted.

I am putting you on my ignore list. It is with great pleasure that I do so; you are one of the least intelligent Pakistanis on this forum, perhaps outside the forum too, not that I can certify that. Goodbye and good riddance.
 
I am putting you on my ignore list. It is with great pleasure that I do so; you are one of the least intelligent Pakistanis on this forum, perhaps outside the forum too, not that I can certify that. Goodbye and good riddance.
Get lost Indian rat. You pea sized brain. Get out of a Pakistani forum! You have no brains at all
 
It seems to me that you neither know nor care what is a Vedantist.



Sorry, didn't notice. Yours is the more authentic, in the sense, closer to the interview and its wordings.
So what is a Vedantist? I use this instead of Hindu as the latter is really a geographic term that has become a religious term.
Should I use the term "follower of Sanatum Dharma" instead?
 
A good find.

Also, I have read somewhere that quite a few Pakistanis protested against the film because Jinnah was portrayed by Christopher Lee who had in turn portrayed Dracula.

Narrow-minded. Those who have seen the film think he did a very good job.

So what is a Vedantist? I use this instead of Hindu as the latter is really a geographic term that has become a religious term.
Should I use the term "follower of Sanatum Dharma" instead?

A follower of Vedanta, a Vedantist, if you like, is a sectarian Hindu, following the teachings of the Vedanta school. A number of great scholars, for instance, Sankaracharya (the original person of 800 AD) and Swami Vivekananda in later days adopted it as their chosen line of thinking. Why it is peculiarly sensitive is because there is a movement among some sections of Hindu scholars to suppress all other schools of philosophy and emphasise this one.

If you used the term knowing the political implications, you are startlingly accurate, I would say uncomfortably accurate. However from your response I understand that you used it as a shorthand for Hindu in general, which is like saying that Salafi doctrine represents the entire body of Islamic thought (a very bald analogy, but I hope you understand the conflation of many quite contradictory lines of thought into one).

It would be dishonest not to mention that the totally blunted sensibilities of the so-called Hindus of the RSS have imposed this regimentation, so,as I mentioned, if you were using the term sarcastically, and pointing to the politics of the situation, you are on target.

I doubt, by the way, that Gandhi could be described as a Vedantist. He was far too heterodox.

PS: I read some other member's remarks protesting that my post to you was sarcastic. I was upset and very annoyed to read that, and want you to know that was far from my intention. It was to point out that it was an inaccurate usage, and depended entirely for its aptness on your own understanding of the undercurrents in India, and the interplay between religious thinking and political activism - a kind of political Islam, but applicable to the conglomeration that is called Hinduism.
 
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Narrow-minded. Those who have seen the film think he did a very good job.



A follower of Vedanta, a Vedantist, if you like, is a sectarian Hindu, following the teachings of the Vedanta school. A number of great scholars, for instance, Sankaracharya (the original person of 800 AD) and Swami Vivekananda in later days adopted it as their chosen line of thinking. Why it is peculiarly sensitive is because there is a movement among some sections of Hindu scholars to suppress all other schools of philosophy and emphasise this one.

If you used the term knowing the political implications, you are startlingly accurate, I would say uncomfortably accurate. However from your response I understand that you used it as a shorthand for Hindu in general, which is like saying that Salafi doctrine represents the entire body of Islamic thought (a very bald analogy, but I hope you understand the conflation of many quite contradictory lines of thought into one).

It would be dishonest not to mention that the totally blunted sensibilities of the so-called Hindus of the RSS have imposed this regimentation, so,as I mentioned, if you were using the term sarcastically, and pointing to the politics of the situation, you are on target.

I doubt, by the way, that Gandhi could be described as a Vedantist. He was far too heterodox.

PS: I read some other member's remarks protesting that my post to you was sarcastic. I was upset and very annoyed to read that, and want you to know that was far from my intention. It was to point out that it was an inaccurate usage, and depended entirely for its aptness on your own understanding of the undercurrents in India, and the interplay between religious thinking and political activism - a kind of political Islam, but applicable to the conglomeration that is called Hinduism.
I see... Thank you for that. I shall then use "follower of Vedic Dharm" instead.
 
A follower of Vedanta, a Vedantist, if you like, is a sectarian Hindu, following the teachings of the Vedanta school. A number of great scholars, for instance, Sankaracharya (the original person of 800 AD) and Swami Vivekananda in later days adopted it as their chosen line of thinking. Why it is peculiarly sensitive is because there is a movement among some sections of Hindu scholars to suppress all other schools of philosophy and emphasise this one.

Seems like you are clueless about Hinduism.

I see... Thank you for that. I shall then use "follower of Vedic Dharm" instead.

There is no need to invent new terms when Hinduism is already coined.
 
Seems like you are clueless about Hinduism.

You might well be right. Also about Islam, and Christianity, and Buddhism, just to round things off.

There is no need to invent new terms when Hinduism is already coined.

He mentioned clearly why he didn't want to use it, and he is justified. It was a fairly recent British coinage. Seems like you are clueless about the British rule over India.
 
Seems like you are clueless about Hinduism.



There is no need to invent new terms when Hinduism is already coined.
But there is.

Hinduism is what the British referred to the religion(s) of the Land of the Indus (or in broader terms what they called the Indian Subcontinent). Now "India" is in Pakistan, so Hinduism ought to refer to Islam as that is the dominant religion of the Land of Hind (Indus). Secondly nowhere in the religious books of " Hinduism" is the religion referred to as Hinduism. Why refer to your own religion from a colonial appellation?
 
But there is.

Hinduism is what the British referred to the religion(s) of the Land of the Indus (or in broader terms what they called the Indian Subcontinent). Now "India" is in Pakistan, so Hinduism ought to refer to Islam as that is the dominant religion of the Land of Hind (Indus). Secondly nowhere in the religious books of " Hinduism" is the religion referred to as Hinduism. Why refer to your own religion from a colonial appellation?

Hinduism predates the modern concept of religion. Hinduism was not created hence it never had a name or reference to other modern religions.
 
Hinduism predates the modern concept of religion. Hinduism was not created hence it never had a name or reference to other modern religions.
What is the name given to "Hinduism" in the Vedas?

Hinduism predates the modern concept of religion. Hinduism was not created hence it never had a name or reference to other modern religions.
What is the name given to "Hinduism" in the Vedas?
 
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