The Danger of Chinese Arrogance

[Bussard Ramjet]

Pointless thread. I could argue that the British Empire fell even harder. They used to control this much territory at the end of the 19th century.

How much do they control now?

I am not talking about colonialism, but of nationhood based largely on people. There is some kind of a basic space for major countries. Britain never lost its main, core territory. Also, britishers literally made the present day system, followed by their direct descendants the Americans. They had huge first mover advantage. They literally imposed their system on us.

Also some would argue that British empire is well alive in many ways. Just look at the medium of our conversation. The anglophone countries still occupy significant areas of the world, and though they are technically sovereign separate entities, the way they cooperate, and work together, it almost feels like an ultra-sovereign entity.

Secondly, this thread is not over yet. As I wrote below, I will formulate it more. It will make more sense then.

 

[twocents]

@Bussard Ramjet

It certainly appears that you've made a good-faithed effort trying to understand China. I truly appreaciate it. However, your observations about China are wide off the mark. The blame does not necessarily lie with you, but rather with the primary source of infomation which leads you to the conclusion the way you did. I am assuming that you rely on the English language media for infomation on China. This is the problem. No matter how hard you try, you'll never get an accurate, complete or even a balanced description of China.

 

[Raphael]

No OP. What's truly arrogant are people who believe they have a "white man's burden" to control Asia, because they think Asians can't be trusted to manage their own affairs. These orientalists and "burdenists" think Asian political diversity is disgusting, and that all Asia should be subsumed under a foreign political ideology and model which has no indigenous roots in the region. They also believe that Asian sovereignty is farcical, and that Whites should always be able to meddle in the internal affairs of other Asian states, and the bilateral relations between Asian states, because those Asians don't know any better.

In contrast, China always respects the sovereignty and internal affairs of other states. What's actually happening is that a concerted propaganda campaign about our purported arrogance has been launched by the US, and emboldened by certain opportunistic states on our periphery. Search the phrase "increasingly assertive" on Google, and you will find that literally every result is some propaganda leaflet/article. The rationale is that they realize that as China grows inexorably stronger, this is their last chance to extract political and territorial concessions from China. If they miss this opportunity, they will be forced to respect our political and territorial sovereignty by the combination of economic and defensive military pressure we exert.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

@Bussard Ramjet

It certainly appears that you've made a good-faithed effort trying to understand China. I truly appreaciate it. However, your observations about China are wide off the mark. The blame does not necessarily lie with you, but rather with the primary source of infomation which leads you to the conclusion the way you did. I am assuming that you rely on the English language media for infomation on China. This is the problem. No matter how hard you try, you'll never get an accurate, complete or even a balanced description of China.

Learning Chinese. Hopefully by the end of this year, that problem will be solved. I have also done sincere effort to separate propaganda from facts. There are also many English language sites and blogs that give chinese perspective.

 

[AgentOrange]

Lets get down to some basic facts here first and then we can expound on the reasons here and everything:

1. China was at a height during the reign of Qianlong Emperor.
2. The people living under chinese reign composed of 1/4 of the global population and 1/3 of its GDP.
3. During the Qianlong Emperor, China (as far as I know) had more monetary reserves (at that time gold and silver) than the rest of the world combined.
4. China had vassal relationship with Korea and other states, with exclusive relations. The above figures don't include this.
5. China missed the industrial revolution
6. Today, share of population of China in global population has come down from 30% at one time, to under 19%.
7. Though the GDP share of China has risen to approximately 13%, it is nowhere near 35% that it once enjoyed.
8. It finds itself strategically isolated in the world. (Yes, having Pakistan and North Korea, the latter a shit hole on earth, and former a sovereign country with questionable administration and exercise of sovereignty over their own land, doesn't count. For all, it is just credibility beater.)
9. China has been infiltrated psychologically so much that instead of assimilating more people, it is finding hard to keep people together which were a part of it for thousands of years. Dissent is happening within its core territory of Tibet, HK and Taiwan.
10. China has not been able to make reapproachment with any of the countries that were its extended territory initially.
11. China still lags way behind in Hard Core technology, research and development. China is behind countries like Germany (even switzerland in some areas)in the impact its work has on science
12. Chinese culture and soft power is non-existent. Rather it can be considered negative.

Please forgive me for being so direct, even provocative, but I'm being frank and honest.

Soft power is tied directly to economic strength and living standards. Without one, you don't have the other. Most Chinese people are still poor and there is no allure in poverty. American soft power is due to its wealth. Hollywood, for example, is the glamorous "American lifestyle" packaged for worldwide consumption even if it's exaggerated to an extreme. Similarly, if Japan were a 3rd world shithole, anime wouldn't be associated with futuristic and fantasy storylines and certainly wouldn't have the worldwide appeal it does today. As you mentioned earlier, a discussion on China's soft power merits an entire thread by itself.

And lastly, your whole premise for this thread is incorrect, IMO. There is no "Chinese arrogance" as China is very much still a developing country and recognizes this fact and today's China is more liberal than at anytime in the last 60 years.

 

[Gufi]

@Bussard Ramjet

1. u did not answer my points
2. you do not know what you are talking about..... Externally China has made great strides in developing relations in Africa and the Middle east in the last few years. your points come from a deep rooted fear or revulsion of China rather then facts. I do not know how to answer half the thing you say because you look at Chinese history like a child looks at art. There are many factors in the break down of China and many reasons it did not open up to the world and accept Industrialisation. Those need to be looked at from the point of view of the dividing forces and the internal conflicts.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

No OP. What's truly arrogant are people who believe they have a "white man's burden" to control Asia, because they think Asians can't be trusted to manage their own affairs. These orientalists and "burdenists" think Asian political diversity is disgusting, and that all Asia should be subsumed under a foreign political ideology and model which has no indigenous roots in the region. They also believe that Asian sovereignty is farcical, and that Whites should always be able to meddle in the internal affairs of other Asian states, and the bilateral relations between Asian states, because those Asians don't know any better.

In contrast, China always respects the sovereignty and internal affairs of other states. What's actually happening is that a concerted propaganda campaign about our purported arrogance has been launched by the US, and emboldened by certain opportunistic states on our periphery. Search the phrase "increasingly assertive" on Google, and you will find that literally every result is some propaganda leaflet/article. The rationale is that they realize that as China grows inexorably stronger, this is their last chance to extract political and territorial concessions from China. If the miss this opportunity, they will be forced to respect our political and territorial sovereignty by the combination of economic and defensive military pressure we exert.

Your first para

I agree partly, but you see it is not really honest when you say that leave Asia to Asians. Many countries indeed want US here. It is somewhat like the Japanese model of Asia for Asians, but obviously with huge difference of aggressive tactics. Also, a thing that is invented or formulated in the west doesn't mean it is western. It is just modern. There were many things that Asians invented which rest of the world took because that was good. Obviously the last 2-3 centuries were Western centuries and hence they were ahead of rest, and discovered and formulated, the next big things, be it scientific, political, ideological or economic. If you actually look at it, China was destroyed by a uniquely western philosophy of communism. While communism did indeed rally people behind the communist party, and also brought good results in initial reform era of land reforms, gender and social reforms. It was a total failure for economic reforms during the Great Leap Forward, and then up until the end of the Cultural Revolution, finally coming to defacto end after the Fall of the Gang of Four, and the internal victory of the reformers in the CCP.

Your second para

Agree totally. Almost all countries will loose, especially japan, if conflict is avoided and delayed, except for India. India has performed very poorly. The ratio of Chinese to Indian GDP is 5:1. I don't see that increasing further. In 2016 the ratio which was until now increasing in the favor of China will start decreasing in favor of India. China will find it hard to maintain a growth rate higher than that of India to keep increasing the ratio. In 10 years, in my assessment that ratio will come down to about 3.5:1. Hence, you will be wise if you have a deal with India now.

As for your interference part, totally agree. USA had a huge role in precipitating the crisis earlier. But don't complain about propaganda. If you are loosing in propaganda, it is your fault, or weakness. Propaganda and Cultural warfare, are very much a part of modern day warfare. And that is precisely my point, you are not doing good in it. I find many many threads about the progress of China in different areas, but never do I find a thread about the shabby state of the Chinese film industry, or its publishing industry. You are today essentially importing a lot of culture from Japan, Korea and US.

Soft power is tied directly to economic strength and living standards. Without one, you don't have the other. Most Chinese people are still poor and there is no allure in poverty. American soft power is due to its wealth. Hollywood, for example, is the glamorous "American lifestyle" packaged for worldwide consumption even if it's exaggerated to an extreme. Similarly, if Japan were a 3rd world shithole, anime wouldn't be associated with futuristic and fantasy storylines and certainly wouldn't have the worldwide appeal it does today. As you mentioned earlier, a discussion on China's soft power merits an entire thread by itself.

And lastly, your whole premise for this thread is incorrect, IMO. There is no "Chinese arrogance" as China is very much still a developing country and recognizes this fact and today's China is more liberal than at anytime in the last 60 years.

Sorry my dear friend, while I completely recognize that there has been a lot of progress in many areas, my expectation for China has been much higher. Also, while wealth does play a huge role, the overall size of the industry is more important. Switzerland, Netherlands, or Australia have negligible cultural power, though they have a higher GDP percapita then United States.

Also, you can check anything, the state of entertainment industry, (industry and not market, chinese entertainment market is already 2nd largest in the world) of China is really shabby.

For example, while China's gdp is twice the size of Japan's, and GDP/capita a fifth, its corresponding manga industry is nowhere near the size of Japan. And remember absolute size matters more than the percapita. China's movie industry is not only behind the United States, it is also behind India's in many many metrics. Similarly with Korean pop culture etc. You are a heavy net importer of foreign entertainment and culture.

 

[The SC]

Lets get down to some basic facts here first and then we can expound on the reasons here and everything:

1. China was at a height during the reign of Qianlong Emperor.
2. The people living under chinese reign composed of 1/4 of the global population and 1/3 of its GDP.
3. During the Qianlong Emperor, China (as far as I know) had more monetary reserves (at that time gold and silver) than the rest of the world combined.
4. China had vassal relationship with Korea and other states, with exclusive relations. The above figures don't include this.
5. China missed the industrial revolution
6. Today, share of population of China in global population has come down from 30% at one time, to under 19%.
7. Though the GDP share of China has risen to approximately 13%, it is nowhere near 35% that it once enjoyed.
8. It finds itself strategically isolated in the world. (Yes, having Pakistan and North Korea, the latter a shit hole on earth, and former a sovereign country with questionable administration and exercise of sovereignty over their own land, doesn't count. For all, it is just credibility beater.)
9. China has been infiltrated psychologically so much that instead of assimilating more people, it is finding hard to keep people together which were a part of it for thousands of years. Dissent is happening within its core territory of Tibet, HK and Taiwan.
10. China has not been able to make reapproachment with any of the countries that were its extended territory initially.
11. China still lags way behind in Hard Core technology, research and development. China is behind countries like Germany (even switzerland in some areas)in the impact its work has on science
12. Chinese culture and soft power is non-existent. Rather it can be considered negative.

Please forgive me for being so direct, even provocative, but I'm being frank and honest.

Those emprors and empresses did not have satellites all over the world, nor did they live in a global economy and market place, where the China "you are being so honest about" have excelled. their friends streche all over the world , there is no place on earth that does not have some Chinese friends even on enemy territories. About the culture, who does not know about Chinese martial arts and the philosophy behind them, there is no household on earth that does not have a Chinese product in it, from the top rich to the poorest.
Technology wise, they have the fastest super computer on earth, if one does not measure technology with computing power than he is deceiving himself.

 

[AgentOrange]

Your first para

I agree partly, but you see it is not really honest when you say that leave Asia to Asians. Many countries indeed want US here. It is somewhat like the Japanese model of Asia for Asians, but obviously with huge difference of aggressive tactics. Also, a thing that is invented or formulated in the west doesn't mean it is western. It is just modern. There were many things that Asians invented which rest of the world took because that was good. Obviously the last 2-3 centuries were Western centuries and hence they were ahead of rest, and discovered and formulated, the next big things, be it scientific, political, ideological or economic. If you actually look at it, China was destroyed by a uniquely western philosophy of communism. While communism did indeed rally people behind the communist party, and also brought good results in initial reform era of land reforms, gender and social reforms. It was a total failure for economic reforms during the Great Leap Forward, and then up until the end of the Cultural Revolution, finally coming to defacto end after the Fall of the Gang of Four, and the internal victory of the reformers in the CCP.

Your second para

Agree totally. Almost all countries will loose, especially japan, if conflict is avoided and delayed, except for India. India has performed very poorly. The ratio of Chinese to Indian GDP is 5:1. I don't see that increasing further. In 2016 the ratio which was until now increasing in the favor of China will start decreasing in favor of India. China will find it hard to maintain a growth rate higher than that of India to keep increasing the ratio. In 10 years, in my assessment that ratio will come down to about 3.5:1. Hence, you will be wise if you have a deal with India now.

As for your interference part, totally agree. USA had a huge role in precipitating the crisis earlier. But don't complain about propaganda. If you are loosing in propaganda, it is your fault, or weakness. Propaganda and Cultural warfare, are very much a part of modern day warfare. And that is precisely my point, you are not doing good in it. I find many many threads about the progress of China in different areas, but never do I find a thread about the shabby state of the Chinese film industry, or its publishing industry. You are today essentially importing a lot of culture from Japan, Korea and US.



Sorry my dear friend, while I completely recognize that there has been a lot of progress in many areas, my expectation for China has been much higher. Also, while wealth does play a huge role, the overall size of the industry is more important. Switzerland, Netherlands, or Australia have negligible cultural power, though they have a higher GDP percapita then United States.

Also, you can check anything, the state of entertainment industry, (industry and not market, chinese entertainment market is already 2nd largest in the world) of China is really shabby.

For example, while China's gdp is twice the size of Japan's, and GDP/capita a fifth, its corresponding manga industry is nowhere near the size of Japan. And remember absolute size matters more than the percapita. China's movie industry is not only behind the United States, it is also behind India's in many many metrics. Similarly with Korean pop culture etc. You are a heavy net importer of foreign entertainment and culture.

IMO, when comparing China and Japan, using the manga industry is an incorrect measure since manga is entirely a Japanese development and obviously Japan will be ahead. If we measure the Beijing opera industry, Japan is sorely lagging behind China but that doesn't mean anything.

With regards to movies, obviously China is behind the US - but so is anyone else. However, using India's movie industry as a measure of India's soft power lead over China is erroneous since the only ones that really watch Indian movies are Indians (just like the biggest audience of Chinese movies is Chinese people.)You can bring up expat viewership or foreign viewership but no non-Indians/non-Chinese really watch Indian/Chinese movies in any meaningful numbers.

For your 2nd point, IMO, per capita income and absolute size both matter equally. Japan has a high per capita income but was also the world's 2nd largest economy for a long time. China, on a per capita basis, is still very poor. Not even in the top 3rd. As I said before, people are attracted to wealth and lifestyle - both a direct extension of a nation's economic strength. Immigration patters reflect this as well. And since China, on a per capita basis, is still very poor - you aren't going to see any cultural trends from China being adopted by other, richer nations anytime soon.

 

[notsuperstitious]

When china draws a dotted line on water and says thats it,

When china opposed third party infra investment in Arunachal Pradesh but continues their own investment in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir,

accroding to some pakistanis thats not arrogance, but some complicated mumbo jumbo based on some cryptic psycho-analyses of Chinese nation!!!

Come on guys, accept china is arrogant and their power allows them to be. Same would apply to any other country too.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

When china draws a dotted line on water and says thats it,

When china opposed third party infra investment in Arunachal Pradesh but continues their own investment in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir,

accroding to some pakistanis thats not arrogance, but some complicated mumbo jumbo based on some cryptic psycho-analyses of Chinese nation!!!

Come on guys, accept china is arrogant and their power allows them to be. Same would apply to any other country too.

People's Republic of China as a nation is a bully. No less, no more.

 

[Yizhi]

I find many many threads about the progress of China in different areas, but never do I find a thread about the shabby state of the Chinese film industry, or its publishing industry. You are today essentially importing a lot of culture from Japan, Korea and US.

not true. you don't see threads here because this is a defense forum. Chinese mainland cultural products are also booming. from novels to TVs to films, ask any young HKer or Taiwanese, they'll know what i'm saying.
you really need to learn Chinese..... it's an entire different world of entertainment waiting for you to explore.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

Those emprors and empresses did not have satellites all over the world, nor did they live in a global economy and market place, where the China "you are being so honest about" have excelled. their friends streche all over the world , there is no place on earth that does not have some Chinese friends even on enemy territories. About the culture, who does not know about Chinese martial arts and the philosophy behind them, there is no household on earth that does not have a Chinese product in it, from the top rich to the poorest.
Technology wise, they have the fastest super computer on earth, if one does not measure technology with computing power than he is deceiving himself.

They didn't have satellites, but nor did their opponents have them. I see you are nationalistic, and I appreciate that. China will appreciate that as well, but it will be more beneficial to China if you can take some criticism and honest advice. Be a little more open-minded. As for culture, that is what I have said, that Chinese ancient culture is fantastic. But, I'm talking about present day one. It is not as dominant as it should be. Rather very weak to say the least, and other Chinese members here recognize this weak point. See, I know the strong points of China. A flatterer and a shrewd person would only remind you and flatter you with praises, it is only an honest friend that will remind you of your failings.

As for technology, yes you have the fastest computer on the world. Some issues:
1. It is based on Intel architecture, and high performance chips.

2. Your total computation power is less that the United States. US has 6 off top 10 supercomputers, while you have 1. It also has 233 systems off top 500 while you have 76. If there is some effort done to build a more powerful system in US, all they have to do is link their first 3 systems together.

3. Computation is not the only field to define technological prowess. While obviously it is 1 area, there are many many more areas, some even more important. The best criteria for judging technical prowess that is used almost ubiquitously by everyone, is the amount of research published in top journals, their quality, and impact. SJR - International Science Ranking -- This can be used to see country rankings. The most important thing here is absolute number of citations, and the h index. By total number of citations the ranking of China is 8, while the h index is 16. The above link is actually quite amazing. You can check the results for individual fields as well.

4. Using the above link you can clearly see that China is 3 in number of citations, and 7 in h index for computer science. (A caveat- this information is for the period 1996-2013 combined. If you look only at 2013, China is 2 in number of citations, and 7 in h index)

5. While it is generally accepted that these parameters are slightly western biased, these are still the best available parameters for hardcore research.

6. You could have given a much more appropriate answer by pointing out BGI- Beijing Genomics Institute which is the leader in genome sequencing, and certain aspects of genome research. This is a whole field, and much wider. So while China has the fastest supercomputer, it is still number 2 behind US overall in computing, simply because it still lacks a lot in core infrastructure, quality institutes, research, total computation power etc. And mind you, computing is the field China is strong at.

not true. you don't see threads here because this is a defense forum. Chinese mainland cultural products are also booming. from novels to TVs to films, ask any young HKer or Taiwanese, they'll know what i'm saying.
you really need to learn Chinese..... it's an entire different world of entertainment waiting for you to explore.

Sure

 

[somsak]

Thailand is a mix of Chinese and India and US cultures. We get 2nd hand indian culture from Khmer. I guess rice farming with iron plaws should be Chinese? Eat Noodles with shop stick. Eat rice with hands(old days). Can understand Bali/Sanskrit. Old day Thai music instrument is very same with Chinese.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

Thailand is a mix of Chinese and India and US cultures. We get 2nd hand indian culture from Khmer. I guess rice farming with iron plaws should be Chinese? Eat Noodles with shop stick. Eat rice with hands(old days). Can understand Bali/Sanskrit. Old day Thai music instrument is very same with Chinese.

No, it is totally different. If you remove modern day western influence. Thais are basically pseudo Chinese who diverged. Then they adopted a lot of Indian culture and influences. As far as genetics is concerned, you are hell lot closer to Chinese, and as much close to Indians, as to Iranians, Europeans. So you are Chinese, who strayed far, and diverged from the main stock. And then picked some Indian elements, especially cultural and religious aspects.

Not only this, there has always been genetic mixing. 12% of the modern day Thais (including the Shinawatra family) are recognized Chinese descendants who are just a century old immigrants. Around half of the Thais have Chinese genes going back to 4-5 centuries. And the thais nevertheless originated also from the same stock. I recognize it will be hard to understand without a basic knowledge of Genetics. Compared to that, you had minimal admixing with Indians.