The Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan called on the Foreign Minister

[MastanKhan]

MK enough people will speak in time. I only have a few years left before the bucket tips over. I dont want to stir any more hornets nests.

Hi,

I am just glad that you said something about the issue---.

 

[SQ8]

You know that Cawasjee himself was a bigger chor in many ways. I liked the way in which he wrote but call a spade a spade and by inferance a chor a chor.
O also think we really need to thrash out as a group and as a nation what did we achieve Pakistan for? I blame Mr Jinnah for changing his tack and being the first munafiq for using the name of islam to achieve a country only to dump the slogan. If my supposition is true then we have huge issues on a religious note. I would qppreciate a serious debate as the question is very important and at the core of what ails Pakistan today.

A

I remember chasing down cowasjee while he still existed. He was driving im a convertible mercedes with a police escort billowing out fumes.. so caught him at a light to berate him about it. He could only nod sheepishly.

 

[MastanKhan]

MK enough people will speak in time. I only have a few years left before the bucket tips over. I dont want to stir any more hornets nests.

Hi,

I can understand that---I had a few hours to think about what you wrote---,

I am torn at the irony of it and how painful must it be for an honest officer to see corruption and nation being plundered right in front of your eyes---.

And I am laughing as well---because you have smashed down many an idols on this very forum---the biggest one being Araz---.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Hi,

I can understand that---I had a few hours to think about what you wrote---,

I am torn at the irony of it and how painful must it be for an honest officer to see corruption and nation being plundered right in front of your eyes---.

And I am laughing as well---because you have smashed down many an idols on this very forum---the biggest one being Araz---.

If you let go of your agendas, you would be a much better contributor.

I wanted to say something other than what I have decided to write. An old friend once said that there were 3 people who knew something that needed to be hidden. One died in a road accident, the other went mad after being interrogated and he escaped else where. The reality is there is so much rot that if you try to say something against the system you will end up having the same fate. Nothing changes as the very people who stole and looted are bastions of the law and the picture of piety. Iam sorry to say that the times of my father where even if they harmed you they still respected you behind the scene are long gone. We are in for a rude awakening. Bilal Khan777 I hope that the current chief turns out to be a good one. He started with an allegedly dirty slate but the real proof of his ability is what he does now.
Incidentally my friend used to quite like Rao Qamar and always said that he is an honest if unassuming bloke. Any thoughts?
A

Current CAS is a good honest gentleman with a very honest team. Comments reserved on all Ex- CAS.

Just a high-level surface view, but what the PN did in terms of lining up procurement following the collapse of the OHP and Type 214 programs is wild: 8 Hangor (II), 4 054A, 4 MILGEM and there's still more (at least per the 15-16 MoDP year book and statements during IDEAS '16). Relatively speaking, you could only ask "what the heck?!" about the PAF and PA now when they benefit from much more funding and fiscal space.

There are capital investment. Long overdue. Our SLOC's are critical to nation's defence, and PN needs complete fleet renewal. After PN will come land forces and their long overdue MBTs, Infantry, Artillery etc, where till now only LOMADs have been properly addressed and rest is going being managed.

You know that Cawasjee himself was a bigger chor in many ways. I liked the way in which he wrote but call a spade a spade and by inferance a chor a chor.
O also think we really need to thrash out as a group and as a nation what did we achieve Pakistan for? I blame Mr Jinnah for changing his tack and being the first munafiq for using the name of islam to achieve a country only to dump the slogan. If my supposition is true then we have huge issues on a religious note. I would qppreciate a serious debate as the question is very important and at the core of what ails Pakistan today.

A

Kindly and carefully watch your comments on the respectable Mr. Jinnah, as he gave us a country that we live in cherish today. I will not accept any foul words to be written or spoken for a great man, to whom we all owe a huge debt. He was spiritually ordained to lead the motley crew of cornered Muslims to make Pakistan on a land for which the Prophet Muhammad Saalahualehewasalam himself has mention in Ahadith. The name of Islam was not a selection by Jinnah. You are foolhardy and pedestrian to think that. Pakistan has, and always will, a higher purpose, which is the only reason the country continues to exists despite all odds, and achieves what is not logically or numerically possible.

Hi,

The navy has not gone wild---they just tried to delay the inevitable. I have been talking about it for years now---.

Did the surfacing of the indian sub had anything to do with it---! Would be interesting to know---.

it was just a sub snorkeling in international waters, picked up by our LRMPs. It was trumpeted by the Ex PN chief as if he actually caught him in his fishing net. Thankfully the current PN chief is a lot more sensible and focussed on real developments.

 

[Armchair]

Just a high-level surface view, but what the PN did in terms of lining up procurement following the collapse of the OHP and Type 214 programs is wild: 8 Hangor (II), 4 054A, 4 MILGEM and there's still more (at least per the 15-16 MoDP year book and statements during IDEAS '16). Relatively speaking, you could only ask "what the heck?!" about the PAF and PA now when they benefit from much more funding and fiscal space.

I believe, and I don't have evidence for this, but its an inside deal with China to protect CPEC access. CPEC will be a critical strategic route for China, that needs to stay open in times of international conflict. China needs the CPEC to stay safe.

Pakistan made a good proposal on how that can be done - and China accepted. Some of these big loans may be written off over time, as far as the big naval purchases from China is concerned. The logical next step should be a mini-SOSUS type system. This would allow SLOCs to remain relatively safe except in a full-blown conflict involving the US.

In the event of a showdown in South China Sea and / or a retaking of Taiwan, the Malacca straits will be closed. China would suffer grievously. If PN ships protect the CPEC, it will be one of the few means of connecting China to much of the rest of the world via sea.

It makes no sense for Pakistan to alone foot the bill for this defence of the CPEC. However, it cannot be shown that Pakistan is acting as a proxy. So, one way around this is to give long-term softloans and then quietly write-off a solid portion of it.

I seriously doubt PN has a lead on PA and PAF on procurement, other than this issue. It has traditionally performed the worst in war. The cream of the armed forces intake goes to the PAF / PA. And KSEW is a meaningless drain on resources, and doesn't hold a candle to Kamra.

PN is running on procurement alone. It has no meaningful industrial strategy. Its ships, while increasing in numbers are going to be mediocre - without meaningful air defence on a host of boats. From the Azmat, with a single CIWS, to the Ada, with another single either CIWS or PDMS. F-22Ps with their known and serious issues. Four 54As, wonder what pandora's box is going to come out of that.

A submarine building capability that cannot build submarines. Or even mini-submarines. A ship building capability that cannot even design a tug boat. Endless ToTs, making a fool of the public. If it wasn't for NESCOM, there literally wouldn't be any naval systems to show.

Of all the things, what strikes me most is the inexcusable mismanagement and lazy and incompetent approach to running KSEW.

Having said all this, PN's officers and men are competent, technically able, and professional. More so than their Indian counterparts, and US naval officers have attested to this.

 

[Armchair]

You know that Cawasjee himself was a bigger chor in many ways. I liked the way in which he wrote but call a spade a spade and by inferance a chor a chor.
O also think we really need to thrash out as a group and as a nation what did we achieve Pakistan for? I blame Mr Jinnah for changing his tack and being the first munafiq for using the name of islam to achieve a country only to dump the slogan. If my supposition is true then we have huge issues on a religious note. I would qppreciate a serious debate as the question is very important and at the core of what ails Pakistan today.

A

I'm a direct descendant of one of the leaders of the All India Muslim League, and Jinnah didn't just use Islam as a slogan, this is the re-writing of history by the brown sahibs that stole Pakistan from under our feet. Jinnah, honestly, sincerely tried to create an Islamic state. He appointed Muhammad Asad and gave him an entire ministry to create the blue print.

Muhammad Asad wanted to create change via two major reform processes - the education system and the legal system. However, by the time he got his plans figured out, Jinnah died and those that came in side-lined and sabotaged him.

If you wish to see what kind of legal change he envisioned, and how to transform Pakistan's legal and justice landscape, read "This Law of Ours" by Muhammad Asad. It might change your life and understanding of Islam itself, for it did mine.

If you want to see how to implement change in a society using the education system, look up how Brunei was transformed from a liberal society of alcohol drinking and bars, to an Islamic society peacefully, quietly and effectively simply by using the sociological weapons the British used in reverse.

More would be off-topic but there you have it in a nutshell.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

I respect your views but reserve the right to ask that question. I dont believe there is any hadeeth which points to the formation of pakistan but would be happy to learn. But that besides my objections are based on my understanding of the Quran and Sunnah.
Let us please establish the parameters of this debate.
A. I firmly believe that no one other than Rasool Allah SAW and the Sahaba Radee allaho Anhum are above repraoch. Even in case of Sahaba e Karaam one can question their actions but to learn from the mistakes commited rather than in a derogatory and critical manner.
B. We need to establish the reason for formation of Pakistan beyond mere rhetoric. In my view it is a very pivotal question as it will I hope point to the direction we need to take from here if we want to save Pakistan(Fairly hypocritical coming from someone sitting thousands of miles away but I have always struggled to see where we as a nation are going).
C. I firmly believe that pakistan was created for a higher purpose. But this purpose needs to be agreed on.
Provided we can agree on these parameters we can persue this debate furhter. Please understand that my purpose is to portray my point of view with regards to Pakistan.There is no disrespect for pakistan per se. I have a lot of respect for Mr Jinnah and firmly believe that had it not been for Allah Izza wa Jal's will and his leadership we would not have achieved Pakistan.However I do not consider him a being beyond criticism and reproach as he was like you and me a human being and as such prone to inherent weaknesses known to all human beings. It is clear that somewhere along the line we lost our core purpose and consequently the direction, and I want to debate what that core function and direction was. Once we establish that we can begin to see why we are where we are today.
In your own words I express an opinion. So calling me foolhardy and padestrian is not helping the debate. Secondly You would have assumed by now that I am not one of those pimply youth who have nothing better to do than to sit and pontificate. I have sat with my parents and heard their stories of how they came to pakistan How my uncle studied under a street lamp to complete his engineering degree in the late 40s in karachi. Howmy father taught his Registrar in the 50s how to drain an abscess and do appendixes and as a Professor of Surgery in Karachi told Jatoi the then Chief minister to lump it and have his extensionrescinded rather than bend to the will of the PPP goons. I have also sat with my father and uncle on the same sofa and seen the surrender of OUR army to the Indians in 71 and still remember their faces full of shame and anger. So I dont think there should be any doubt about mine and my family's loyalty to and love for Pakistan, nor my maturity to hold the discussion with you and all others who care to join in with self respect and respect for others.. One of the greatest regrets I have is to have left pakistan to live in UK a decision I still regret and will continue to do till my dying days.
Kind regards
A

what

I respect your views but reserve the right to ask that question. I dont believe there is any hadeeth which points to the formation of pakistan but would be happy to learn. But that besides my objections are based on my understanding of the Quran and Sunnah.
Let us please establish the parameters of this debate.
A. I firmly believe that no one other than Rasool Allah SAW and the Sahaba Radee allaho Anhum are above repraoch. Even in case of Sahaba e Karaam one can question their actions but to learn from the mistakes commited rather than in a derogatory and critical manner.
B. We need to establish the reason for formation of Pakistan beyond mere rhetoric. In my view it is a very pivotal question as it will I hope point to the direction we need to take from here if we want to save Pakistan(Fairly hypocritical coming from someone sitting thousands of miles away but I have always struggled to see where we as a nation are going).
C. I firmly believe that pakistan was created for a higher purpose. But this purpose needs to be agreed on.
Provided we can agree on these parameters we can persue this debate furhter. Please understand that my purpose is to portray my point of view with regards to Pakistan.There is no disrespect for pakistan per se. I have a lot of respect for Mr Jinnah and firmly believe that had it not been for Allah Izza wa Jal's will and his leadership we would not have achieved Pakistan.However I do not consider him a being beyond criticism and reproach as he was like you and me a human being and as such prone to inherent weaknesses known to all human beings. It is clear that somewhere along the line we lost our core purpose and consequently the direction, and I want to debate what that core function and direction was. Once we establish that we can begin to see why we are where we are today.
In your own words I express an opinion. So calling me foolhardy and padestrian is not helping the debate. Secondly You would have assumed by now that I am not one of those pimply youth who have nothing better to do than to sit and pontificate. I have sat with my parents and heard their stories of how they came to pakistan How my uncle studied under a street lamp to complete his engineering degree in the late 40s in karachi. Howmy father taught his Registrar in the 50s how to drain an abscess and do appendixes and as a Professor of Surgery in Karachi told Jatoi the then Chief minister to lump it and have his extensionrescinded rather than bend to the will of the PPP goons. I have also sat with my father and uncle on the same sofa and seen the surrender of OUR army to the Indians in 71 and still remember their faces full of shame and anger. So I dont think there should be any doubt about mine and my family's loyalty to and love for Pakistan, nor my maturity to hold the discussion with you and all others who care to join in with self respect and respect for others.. One of the greatest regrets I have is to have left pakistan to live in UK a decision I still regret and will continue to do till my dying days.
Kind regards
A

What is the relevance of your comment, that started this all, and all the above commentary, to the topic?

 

[araz]

what


What is the relevance of your comment, that started this all, and all the above commentary, to the topic?

None I agree. I have deleted my post. Lets leave it at that. Sorry for having wasted your time
A

 

[MastanKhan]

None I agree. I have deleted my post. Lets leave it at that. Sorry for having wasted your time
A

Hi,

You showed your real face---and that was not a pretty sight.

 

[MastanKhan]

If you let go of your agendas, you would be a much better contributor.


Current CAS is a good honest gentleman with a very honest team. Comments reserved on all Ex- CAS.

it was just a sub snorkeling in international waters, picked up by our LRMPs. It was trumpeted by the Ex PN chief as if he actually caught him in his fishing net. Thankfully the current PN chief is a lot more sensible and focussed on real developments.

Hi,

First of all---I don't have AGENDAS---. Air force is the most critical part of a nation's defence---and my contributions reflect on that---.

As for the sub---subs don't snorkle close to enemy territory just for fun---and specially when their enemy warships are visiting a major port---take it it as a basic fundamental 101 in sub detection training---.

Actions ar pearl Harbor remind us---if there is a speculation of a sub---there is a sub---if there is one sub---then there is another one close by---.

If an enemy sub suddenly surfaces in your water or close to your waters---look elsewhere---because that is where another sub would be lurking or doing something critical---.

And that too an old sub---enemy tries to justify every which way---it was just an old sub that broke down---what a matter of convenience.

 

[SQ8]

@Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
A possible hypothesis for the visit could be to request a deepening or actuvation of certain diplomats in a Pakistani mission overseas where perhaps a Air Attache may not be present.
Either for purchase, sale or bilateral exercise/exchange

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

@Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
A possible hypothesis for the visit could be to request a deepening or actuvation of certain diplomats in a Pakistani mission overseas where perhaps a Air Attache may not be present.
Either for purchase, sale or bilateral exercise/exchange

Possibly. IIRC the ACM also called the MoD earlier in the month.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Hi,

First of all---I don't have AGENDAS---. Air force is the most critical part of a nation's defence---and my contributions reflect on that---.

As for the sub---subs don't snorkle close to enemy territory just for fun---and specially when their enemy warships are visiting a major port---take it it as a basic fundamental 101 in sub detection training---.

Actions ar pearl Harbor remind us---if there is a speculation of a sub---there is a sub---if there is one sub---then there is another one close by---.

If an enemy sub suddenly surfaces in your water or close to your waters---look elsewhere---because that is where another sub would be lurking or doing something critical---.

And that too an old sub---enemy tries to justify every which way---it was just an old sub that broke down---what a matter of convenience.

There is always a sub(s) in our waters, and there is always a sub(s) in theirs.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

None I agree. I have deleted my post. Lets leave it at that. Sorry for having wasted your time
A

Araz, one should keep emotions out of this. we all learn to our grave. None of us are perfect. I don't think you are a pimply kid, nor do I think anyone here is one. Cheer up. You are an important contributor to the forum, and have a knack of critical thinking.

Hi,

You showed your real face---and that was not a pretty sight.

MK, lets keep the acerbity out the forum, even if we disagree on things with people.

 

[araz]

Araz, one should keep emotions out of this. we all learn to our grave. None of us are perfect. I don't think you are a pimply kid, nor do I think anyone here is one. Cheer up. You are an important contributor to the forum, and have a knack of critical thinking.



MK, lets keep the acerbity out the forum, even if we disagree on things with people.

Bilal Khan777.
Iam not emotional, however I genuinely wanted to explore my thought process. This as you well know is an important part of self evaluation. As to why I deleted the post, firstly you were not going to engage in a debate, and secondly that the post was out of context and would have turned into a troll fest rather than a debate.
As to Dear Mastan Khan, we have history going back to the days when he was a think tank member. We have always had tiffs and arguments and he is so badly burnt by what Occured subsequently that he lets go of no opportunity to criticize and berrate me. Incidentally he was, is and will remain on my ignore list although I do from time to time read his post. I do not engage him in a debate as I have lost the will to get sane answers out of him and cannot suffer fools. Kind regards.
A