Icarus
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Nope, I don't believe in sects. I'm just a muslim. A plain old muslim.
Taliban true followers of Islam: minister
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Nope, I don't believe in sects. I'm just a muslim. A plain old muslim.
foxbat
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Irfan Baloch
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why is he not banned yet?
by the way coming back to the topic.. that party is a joke
they said that a woman leaderhsip is Haram and then accepted permits for diesel fuel (hence mullah Diesels)
they also accepted all the kick backs and perks in every goverment even today
they are just a comic relief group dont take them seriously
the sad part is that their own leader is on Taliban hit list
its commical that thier member thinks that popping their party leader is true and Islamic
Icarus
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why is he not banned yet?
by the way coming back to the topic.. that party is a joke
they said that a woman leaderhsip is Haram and then accepted permits for diesel fuel (hence mullah Diesels)
they also accepted all the kick backs and perks in every goverment even today
they are just a comic relief group dont take them seriously
the sad part is that their own leader is on Taliban hit list
its commical that thier member thinks that popping their party leader is true and Islamic
All the mods are absent at the moment Sir, and this guy is on a trolling marathon.
On-Topic: What makes it more Ironic is that the minister is actually Mullah Diesel's brother ! Thus going by your argument he is wowing the guys who want to pop his own brother !
Addition: T-Faz got to the guy, he's gone.......(troll)
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WOW. . . me too. . . . Hi BHAIA. . .
nice posts. . we must eliminate these sects and unite to become a nation. . .
YUN TO SYED BHI HO, MIRZA BHI HO, AFGHAN BHI HO
TUM SABHI KUCH HO BATAO TO MUSALMAN BHI HO
- Allama Iqbal
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Al-zakir
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Al-zakir
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This one elaborate even further...
'munfait ek hai is qaum ki, nuqsaan bhi ek,ek hi sab ka nabi, din bhi, imaan bhi ek,
harm-e-paak bhi, Allah bhi, Quran bhi ek,kuchh bari baat thi hote jo musalmaan bhi ek!' Allama Iqbal
muse
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And a what a feather in the cap of the Pakistani state that would be - that the council of Islamic ideology is led by pro-Taliban parties -- all these internal contradictions suggest that Pakistan will remain unable to confront the Taliban and their sponsors (religious parties) successfully - it's sad.
These clerics started out with the slogan of" Napak-istan" and "Kafir e Azam" for Mohammad Ali Jinnah, today they stand at the pinnacle of political power in Pakistan, over the dead torn apart bodies of innocent Pakistanis.
These clerics started out with the slogan of" Napak-istan" and "Kafir e Azam" for Mohammad Ali Jinnah, today they stand at the pinnacle of political power in Pakistan, over the dead torn apart bodies of innocent Pakistanis.
muse
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We have suggested that it's pointless to argue which is the real Islam, because it's really in the eye of the beholder - it really is about the kinds of ideas you find for your own reasons, compelling, that these ideas serve as a kind of lens, if you will, through which one may experience Islam or that which can be said to be "Islamic" -- Merciful and Compassionate or Unforgiving and Vengeful, really depends on which ever you are more persuaded by --
But, wait, isn't there an objective Islam? Well, is there? I would suggest that at present it is difficult to discern.
In the meantime, the use of Islam as a tool of violent politics is a given in Pakistan - Pakistanis ultimately must decide for themselves whether the Sacred can be protected by secularizing it or whether making the Secular, Sacred, is the way to go - meanwhile back at the ranch, is much murder and mayhem, in the name of Izslum, and the honor of the that gentle soul, and the control of persons and groups who imagine that there is truth to "La Iqra fid-deen" "There is no Compulsion in Religion" -- Have Fatwa will use:
Apostasy decree issued against Taseer
Thursday, November 25, 2010
By Asim Hussain
LAHORE: Religious parties agitation against governments efforts to release blasphemy convict Asia Masih to send her to the US and to amend blasphemy law gained momentum on Wednesday, while a party also issued an apostasy decree against Governor Salman Taseer.
More demonstrations were held in many cities of the Punjab which demanded dismissal of Punjab Governor Salman Taseer who had initiated secret efforts to extradite the culprit. Tahaffuz Namoos-e-Risalat Mahaz (TNRM), a conglomerate of two dozen religious parties from Barelvi school of thought, staged a peaceful protest outside the Governors House on Wednesday and warned of a fierce anti-government movement if Asia was sent abroad or attempts to change blasphemy law continued under this garb.
Tehrik-e-Hurmat-e-Rasool (THR), another alliance of over a dozen religious parties, staged demonstrations in many cities and towns of the Punjab condemning what they called a West-sponsored movement against blasphemy laws through western funded NGOs and secular lobbies in Pakistan. They demanded immediate dismissal of Punjab Governor Salman Taseer and putting an end to the international conspiracy against Islam.
The THR also called a grand meeting of various religious parties in Lahore on Thursday (Today) to chalk out a future line of action. Addressing the protest demonstration outside the Governors House, TNRM leaders Alalam Razul Mustafa Naqshbandi, Ziaul Haq Naqshbandi, Raghib Hussian Naeemi, Pir Athar Qadri, Naeem Javed Noori, Mujahid Abdul Rasool, Mufti Masoodur Rehman and others announced observing Friday (tomorrow) as a countrywide protest day against the PPP governments attempts to implement the western conspiracy against Islam.
They also announced convening a religious assembly of the top Islamic scholars to issue a religious edict (Fatwa) against Salman Taseer and those elements in the country who were bent upon changing blasphemy laws and were not sparing any moment to condemn it.
They also warned that all conspiracies against Islam would be foiled with a complete unity and determination. They later dispersed peacefully. THR leaders Maulana Ameer Hamza, Qari Yaqoob Sheikh and others asked why Pope Benedict did not raise his voice against the unjust conviction of Dr Aafia Siddiqi and the misuse of US laws to kill millions of Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq but was concerned over the legal punishment to a single Christian woman convicted of blasphemy by a court.
Majlis-e-Ahrar Pakistan leader Syed Ataul Muhemin Bukhari and other leaders also warned of a launching a movement against the PPP government and Punjab Governor Salman Taseer if they continued implementing western conspiracy against Islam in the country by extraditing Asia Masih and trying to change the blasphemy laws.
Jamaat-e-Islami Punjab Ameer Dr Waseem Akhtar, while addressing a meeting, demanded that presidential powers to pardon blasphemy convicts must be withdrawn and if blasphemy laws were to be amended then they should be done through parliament in consultations with the religious scholars.
Meanwhile, Almi Jamaat Ahle Sunnat in an emergency meeting has issued a fatwa (Edict), declaring Governor Punjab Salmaan Taseer as apostate for raising his voice to free blasphemy convict Asia and implementing the western conspiracy against the blasphemy laws in the country. According to a press release, Salman Taseer will remain apostate till the time he seeks forgiveness for this great sin and shows repentance. The fatwa came in a meeting of the religious scholars at the office of Allmi Jamaat Ahle Sunnat with Sahibzada Allama Pir Syed Mustafa Asharf Rizvi in the chair.
And Pakistan are at war with the Talib and other Islamic terrorists? Really? Will the CJP take notice? Will the police act against them? So really why condemn this minister, he is only speaking truthfully.
But, wait, isn't there an objective Islam? Well, is there? I would suggest that at present it is difficult to discern.
In the meantime, the use of Islam as a tool of violent politics is a given in Pakistan - Pakistanis ultimately must decide for themselves whether the Sacred can be protected by secularizing it or whether making the Secular, Sacred, is the way to go - meanwhile back at the ranch, is much murder and mayhem, in the name of Izslum, and the honor of the that gentle soul, and the control of persons and groups who imagine that there is truth to "La Iqra fid-deen" "There is no Compulsion in Religion" -- Have Fatwa will use:
Apostasy decree issued against Taseer
Thursday, November 25, 2010
By Asim Hussain
LAHORE: Religious parties agitation against governments efforts to release blasphemy convict Asia Masih to send her to the US and to amend blasphemy law gained momentum on Wednesday, while a party also issued an apostasy decree against Governor Salman Taseer.
More demonstrations were held in many cities of the Punjab which demanded dismissal of Punjab Governor Salman Taseer who had initiated secret efforts to extradite the culprit. Tahaffuz Namoos-e-Risalat Mahaz (TNRM), a conglomerate of two dozen religious parties from Barelvi school of thought, staged a peaceful protest outside the Governors House on Wednesday and warned of a fierce anti-government movement if Asia was sent abroad or attempts to change blasphemy law continued under this garb.
Tehrik-e-Hurmat-e-Rasool (THR), another alliance of over a dozen religious parties, staged demonstrations in many cities and towns of the Punjab condemning what they called a West-sponsored movement against blasphemy laws through western funded NGOs and secular lobbies in Pakistan. They demanded immediate dismissal of Punjab Governor Salman Taseer and putting an end to the international conspiracy against Islam.
The THR also called a grand meeting of various religious parties in Lahore on Thursday (Today) to chalk out a future line of action. Addressing the protest demonstration outside the Governors House, TNRM leaders Alalam Razul Mustafa Naqshbandi, Ziaul Haq Naqshbandi, Raghib Hussian Naeemi, Pir Athar Qadri, Naeem Javed Noori, Mujahid Abdul Rasool, Mufti Masoodur Rehman and others announced observing Friday (tomorrow) as a countrywide protest day against the PPP governments attempts to implement the western conspiracy against Islam.
They also announced convening a religious assembly of the top Islamic scholars to issue a religious edict (Fatwa) against Salman Taseer and those elements in the country who were bent upon changing blasphemy laws and were not sparing any moment to condemn it.
They also warned that all conspiracies against Islam would be foiled with a complete unity and determination. They later dispersed peacefully. THR leaders Maulana Ameer Hamza, Qari Yaqoob Sheikh and others asked why Pope Benedict did not raise his voice against the unjust conviction of Dr Aafia Siddiqi and the misuse of US laws to kill millions of Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq but was concerned over the legal punishment to a single Christian woman convicted of blasphemy by a court.
Majlis-e-Ahrar Pakistan leader Syed Ataul Muhemin Bukhari and other leaders also warned of a launching a movement against the PPP government and Punjab Governor Salman Taseer if they continued implementing western conspiracy against Islam in the country by extraditing Asia Masih and trying to change the blasphemy laws.
Jamaat-e-Islami Punjab Ameer Dr Waseem Akhtar, while addressing a meeting, demanded that presidential powers to pardon blasphemy convicts must be withdrawn and if blasphemy laws were to be amended then they should be done through parliament in consultations with the religious scholars.
Meanwhile, Almi Jamaat Ahle Sunnat in an emergency meeting has issued a fatwa (Edict), declaring Governor Punjab Salmaan Taseer as apostate for raising his voice to free blasphemy convict Asia and implementing the western conspiracy against the blasphemy laws in the country. According to a press release, Salman Taseer will remain apostate till the time he seeks forgiveness for this great sin and shows repentance. The fatwa came in a meeting of the religious scholars at the office of Allmi Jamaat Ahle Sunnat with Sahibzada Allama Pir Syed Mustafa Asharf Rizvi in the chair.
And Pakistan are at war with the Talib and other Islamic terrorists? Really? Will the CJP take notice? Will the police act against them? So really why condemn this minister, he is only speaking truthfully.
Friends, thank you very much for sharing your thoughts, it is very educational process. Any nation that does not discuss and debate things or does not allow it is most definitely a dead nation. Only lively people help our world to be a better place.
To help pakistan become a better nation there is dire need for education so we could see the problems that face pakistan and try and diagnose the causes behind them and see how we can get rid of those causes and thereby problems.
The country is seriously divided on various grounds and therefore the need for such education that helps us unite. I have explained how we can remain trible if that is what tribes want but we must have purposeful freedom within tribes for individuals so that people could have peace between them so that they could cooperate with each other to make progress towards prosperity of all so that all could have the opportunity to have a reasonably happy life.
Any system will work that is based on justice and fair play and any system will fail where there is injustice and unfairness. All should take this to heart no ifs and buts.
The other main division is secularism v religion. As I have explained that islam can fit into secularism and secularism can fit within islam, why? Because as I explained secularism is all about living a good life in this world and islam does not oppose people from living a good life in this world so there is no conflict. This is why muslims and nonmuslims can live together as one people as the prophet used to live with majority nonmuslims both in makkah and madinah and as nonmuslims used to live with majority muslims thereafter.
If we read the quran all the prophet who came to any people were from amongst them and were in minority to begin with. None of them opposed living with nonmuslims but spoke out against unfairness and injustices within their societies and were driven out by the powerful people in their soceities. They did not leave their societies saying to the people, look! We are muslims so we do not want to live with you because you are nonmuslims so we are leaving.
It is a constant thread in almost all stories in the quran so any muslim who tries to divide people on basis of religion is not exactly following the quran. No prophet divided people on basis of religious beliefs, all divisions were based on social concerns and were caused by corrupt religious and political leaders. How, because they used to use and abuse their people and prophets acted as reformers and in defence of those people.
No prophet forced anyone to accept the religion of the prophet other than by putting forth arguments in favour of their mission. However because people saw them that these people were doing good for them so they started following the prophets. We do that even today that if we like an idea or a person we are just convinced and start supporting it/him. So religion must not be thought of in isolation but on ground reality.
However there are no guaranties that followers really follow the leaders faithfully, likewise the followers of prophets were just people and so people needed to be careful not to give their support to leaders from amongst them without due care and investigation. Supporting anyone is a trust and a huge responsibilty of the individual on behalf of rest of tyhe society so do not help choose such people as your leaders as are not reliable people. Democracy is not about throwing your vote in the bin, it is about choosing a person who can best represents you and the country whereever s/he goes. Would you like to be known by some bad reputation? Of course not, so why would you be so silly to choose someone to represent you who brings you and your country bad name and condemnation?
Get to know about people as much as you can and what they stand for before you vote for them. You should be sensible enough to see what you really want from your leader under the circunstcnes at the time and whether the leaders is capable of delivering it. Once you have chosen a leader monitor the progress towards the goal to see if you are getting what you voted for or else chnage your leader.
Since we cannot know everyone personally we must have ways set up whereby we can get reasonable and reliable information about people who wish to be our leaders. These ways must not be trusted on their face value but monitoring ways must also be set up so that any misinformation and disinformation could be filtered out. Lies and more lies are very much possible and so there should be serious legal consequences for such poeple.
What I am talking about is media. There should be party based media so that each political party could state its case free of other peoples' interference. This way parties can put forth their own points of views freely as well as criticise other parties involved as they like eg government, other potical parties or people etc etc. There should be state based media, this should keep an eye on all citizens to ensure that all are working for the good of the country as well as it should be free to inform public what the government is upto and how it is progressing. There should be public based media that ensures the public interest that government is working properly to serve them and political parties are working mainly in the public interest. Finally there should be independent media that should keep all in check against each other.
My point here is that unless an individual has proper information one cannot make a proper decision. All remain in the dark and so cunning poeple can get in to power and ruin things for everyone. If we have checks and balances in place bad things will still happen but not at massive scales. Media is best form of our senses ie it can be our eyes and ears. It is the best defence against corruption, abuse, error and negligence etc by anyone ie political parties, government , public etc.
Parties fighting it out against each other is another very good defence against bad things happening in society.
These like things help us prevent bad things from happening in the society and even if any do they can be brought to light straight away so that the situation could be rectified without delay. Each side will keep all others on their toes.
We also need independent judiciary worth the name. It should be there not only for criminal matters but civil matters as well. Justice must be justice, quick and affordable. Again people should be appointed as judges by the public not government or political parties and their performance must be monitored by the public.
As for making laws, the parliament must debate whatever the proposed laws may be regarding anything. The public, the political parties, the government or any individual citizen should be able to propose any law they wish and it should become law only and only if it is agreed that it is benefical for the country as whole or is not damaging to the country at least. No law should be passed that is clearly seen damaging for the country or its citizens. Any law that has been passed its effects must be monitored and if found clearly not for the public good it must be repealed.
Since pakistan is a majority muslim country, all laws in pakistan must be according to the quran within quranic context only if that is what majority of muslims want. It is absolutely vital that the quranic laws are properly understood in their proper context. In my personal view the quranic laws are as good as any other laws for the same thing if not better. I am utterly against theocracy and mullaism or khilafah etc. They are in my view unislamic as per my own understanding of the quran and hadith but that is my personal view and I do not mind discussing these things in great delail for benefit of the poeple.
Quranic democracy is the best form of government that I can think of but no people are ready for it yet because they do not know what it is. If I get the time and opportunity I shall try and explain it. This whole thing needs a lot of time and effort. If people really understood quranic islam I do not think they would want anything other than that outline or framework as a politcal system, structure and practice.
I have already explained that islam is just a set of some directives ie a loose frame work within which we must do all by ourselves the best we can come up with for the benefit of all of us. This is quranic islam and it is not a straght lacket. It is like you have a fence around a field for protection of those inside the fence and within that huge field you are free to do as you please regardless you are a muslim or a kafir. As far as islam is concern you are all brothers and sister a one big family.
031.014 YUSUFALI: And We have enjoined on man (to be good) to his parents: in travail upon travail did his mother bear him, and in years twain was his weaning: (hear the command), "Show gratitude to Me and to thy parents: to Me is (thy final) Goal.
031.015 YUSUFALI: "But if they strive to make thee join in worship with Me things of which thou hast no knowledge, obey them not; yet bear them company in this life with justice (and consideration), and follow the way of those who turn to me (in love): in the end the return of you all is to Me, and I will tell you the truth (and meaning) of all that ye did."
017.023 YUSUFALI: Thy Lord hath decreed that ye worship none but Him, and that ye be kind to parents. Whether one or both of them attain old age in thy life, say not to them a word of contempt, nor repel them, but address them in terms of honour.
060.008 YUSUFALI: Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
029.008 YUSUFALI: We have enjoined on man kindness to parents: but if they (either of them) strive (to force) thee to join with Me (in worship) anything of which thou hast no knowledge, obey them not. Ye have (all) to return to me, and I will tell you (the truth) of all that ye did.
046.015 YUSUFALI: We have enjoined on man kindness to his parents: In pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth. The carrying of the (child) to his weaning is (a period of) thirty months. At length, when he reaches the age of full strength and attains forty years, he says, "O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for Thy favour which Thou has bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness such as Thou mayest approve; and be gracious to me in my issue. Truly have I turned to Thee and truly do I bow (to Thee) in Islam."
Can anyone here see allah telling muslims to kill kafirs just because they are kafirs? No. It tells us even if parent tell you to be a kafir don't disrespect them and treat them as a child should. The only time muslims are allowed to fight with relatives is when war becomes inevitable. That is only in war not when there is peace. The war is only there when unjust parents and relatives impose it on muslim relatives and leave them no choice but to fight back. The question is, is this wrong? If one cannot live with kafirs then how can there be such relationship between parent and children as the quran advises? This again causes contradictions within the quran if people must not be allowed to live with each other like a single family. These like verses clearly tell us that social relationships between human beings are respected in the quran regardless of their religious beliefs.
Let me try and put things in context so that my stand point becomes clear. I think it is wrong to think people are individuals to start with because it is not true. People are interdependent individuals ie they are not here all by themselves but due to others ie parents. Not only that but also we all need others at one time or another so our individuality is just a little part of this whole thing and that is all. As soon as we are born parents take care of us and very soon we too end up as parents so there is no much individuality for us in reality. This is why we have politics because we humans have societies which independent individuals do not need because they do not need anyone ever. It is misleading to think we are gods. It is because we are interdependent individuals that we need political setups as societies so that as societies we could create cultures that suit us for various reasons for catering for our different needs, mental and physical.
This is how the whole thing becomes a religion ie a way of life. This way of life became ways of life and very complex just like ourselves over a very long period of time.
So the question one should ask is, where do we theists and athesits stand in this picture? If we could find our place then our struggle makes sense otherwise it does not. So all we can do is try and find our place before anything else.
There are many discussions and debates about religions, philosophies, politics, bahaviours, ideologies, practices, attitudes etc etc. All we are trying to do is to see how we can live a good life. In this picture we stand on removing ills from the human society without destroying people or their socieites.
The question is what are those ills we wish to remove from our societies? They are what we consider bad for the societies because they hold us back from purposeful freedom, peace coexistence, harmony for unity, cooperation for progress and prosperity. All these are necessary for our happiness to some degree as our end goal.
In the explained context atheists think atheism is good because the idea of god is making poeple fight over religions. However if god is taken out of the equation, are people not going to fight? The answer is that they will still fight because of the things we must have, to be able to have a chance of a happy life. So we need to remove not only such gods as are troublesome but all other such things as well that are obstacle in the way of our happiness ie anti freedom things, anti peace things, anti harmony things, anti cooperation things, anti progress things and anti prosperity things.
If we cannot think this far then all arguments and stand points are useless till we achieve such knowledge. It then matters not whether there is any god or no god. The argument for and against god/s is only worthy of our time if it is beneficial and is a way to a final goal, which is same as goal of all religions including humanism ie peace and happiness for humanity.
This explanation seemed necessary to me so there we have it. I am not here to destroy people but to help them educate themselves and thereby myself towards the goal of better world. In this context I would like people to help each other spot bad things within us and our societies and then do things to let other know about them so that together little by little we can succeed in removing them.
This is why there is no need to destroy any religion or people wholesale but whatever is wrong with them. You do not need to throw away the whole human being if one gets just a limb infected badly. You try and save the life by cutting off the bad part and throwing it away so that it does not causes more damgage or spreads the disease.
This brings us to next question, what should we remove from societies first why and how? For example, is it of utmost importance that we first of all remove idea of god/s from this picture or athesism or should we go for something else or just carry on with whatever we can?
So peole who have some silly notion of arguing for sake of argument without any sensible end goal to share with others are really silly and they are not making the contribution they need to.
Islam in quranic context is not as bad as muslims are making it look. I invite people to study islam in quranic context and then study muslims as well and see where the real problem is. Islam may not be the best religion but I am certain muslims are worst of the people. Why? Because they are trying to make islam what it is not, in a bad way frightening away the whole human race.
Our objective should be to see ills for ourselves, point out those ills to others and try and get cooperation to remove them from islam and muslims. The same should be done about all other religions and poeple and we will end up united and happy.
Let me give you an example, everyone is aware that muslims claim the prophet married his wife ayesha when she was six and consumated his marriage with her when she was 9 years old. This they do on the basis of some so called ahadith in most authentic sunni books of hadith called siha sitta, meaning the set of six most authentic hadith collections eg bukhari, muslim, tirmizi, ibn maja, abu dwud and nisai.
Here is what the quran tells us as law in islam.
004.006 YUSUFALI: Make trial of orphans until they reach the age of marriage; if then ye find sound judgment in them, release their property to them; but consume it not wastefully, nor in haste against their growing up. If the guardian is well-off, Let him claim no remuneration, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is just and reasonable. When ye release their property to them, take witnesses in their presence: But all-sufficient is Allah in taking account.
004.019 YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.
The quran is very clear that there is an age for marriage and that forced marriage is haraam/unlawful. The age of marriage is when two people are able to produce kids and have needed sense to raise a family by being able to take care of the family. One can see when abraham and david and solomon got married and when moses got married. They did not marry child brides. There is no child marriage in the quran.
Marriage is not a duty in islam let alone child marriage. Why would anyone want to marry a baby or not so old person who hardly can lookafter oneself?
Now I ask, a man who gave us the quran and told us this himself, how could he go against this himself? Would people (particularly his enemies) not ask him, wait a minute what the hell is this you think you are doing marrying a child?
I think these are invented hadith may be by people with such tendencies to justify their lust for kids in the name of religion or even in the name prophet of islam.
This has nothing to do with quranic islam in quranic context. The problem does not remain to the hadith rather tafseer books are full of this kind of stuff so we need to be very cafeful what we take as islam and why?
Taleban have been practicing this kind of islam, so I leave it to poeple to decide whether taleban are real muslims or not.
Coming to ahadith, it is clear that people with various objectives have been inventing ahadith to create loopholes in islam for their own ends. Some decided to stone poeple to death for some other revenge and others invented hadith to justify pedophilia and yet others other socially unacceptable things because they are bad.
These people thought they could get away with it because people will look at who said it not what is said. They have been very successful because muslims have been dooped in a great majority. All because people did not educate themselves or failed to scrutinize things properly.
It is good idea not to continue things that way if we wish to make pakistan free of bad things in the name of islam.
more later.
To help pakistan become a better nation there is dire need for education so we could see the problems that face pakistan and try and diagnose the causes behind them and see how we can get rid of those causes and thereby problems.
The country is seriously divided on various grounds and therefore the need for such education that helps us unite. I have explained how we can remain trible if that is what tribes want but we must have purposeful freedom within tribes for individuals so that people could have peace between them so that they could cooperate with each other to make progress towards prosperity of all so that all could have the opportunity to have a reasonably happy life.
Any system will work that is based on justice and fair play and any system will fail where there is injustice and unfairness. All should take this to heart no ifs and buts.
The other main division is secularism v religion. As I have explained that islam can fit into secularism and secularism can fit within islam, why? Because as I explained secularism is all about living a good life in this world and islam does not oppose people from living a good life in this world so there is no conflict. This is why muslims and nonmuslims can live together as one people as the prophet used to live with majority nonmuslims both in makkah and madinah and as nonmuslims used to live with majority muslims thereafter.
If we read the quran all the prophet who came to any people were from amongst them and were in minority to begin with. None of them opposed living with nonmuslims but spoke out against unfairness and injustices within their societies and were driven out by the powerful people in their soceities. They did not leave their societies saying to the people, look! We are muslims so we do not want to live with you because you are nonmuslims so we are leaving.
It is a constant thread in almost all stories in the quran so any muslim who tries to divide people on basis of religion is not exactly following the quran. No prophet divided people on basis of religious beliefs, all divisions were based on social concerns and were caused by corrupt religious and political leaders. How, because they used to use and abuse their people and prophets acted as reformers and in defence of those people.
No prophet forced anyone to accept the religion of the prophet other than by putting forth arguments in favour of their mission. However because people saw them that these people were doing good for them so they started following the prophets. We do that even today that if we like an idea or a person we are just convinced and start supporting it/him. So religion must not be thought of in isolation but on ground reality.
However there are no guaranties that followers really follow the leaders faithfully, likewise the followers of prophets were just people and so people needed to be careful not to give their support to leaders from amongst them without due care and investigation. Supporting anyone is a trust and a huge responsibilty of the individual on behalf of rest of tyhe society so do not help choose such people as your leaders as are not reliable people. Democracy is not about throwing your vote in the bin, it is about choosing a person who can best represents you and the country whereever s/he goes. Would you like to be known by some bad reputation? Of course not, so why would you be so silly to choose someone to represent you who brings you and your country bad name and condemnation?
Get to know about people as much as you can and what they stand for before you vote for them. You should be sensible enough to see what you really want from your leader under the circunstcnes at the time and whether the leaders is capable of delivering it. Once you have chosen a leader monitor the progress towards the goal to see if you are getting what you voted for or else chnage your leader.
Since we cannot know everyone personally we must have ways set up whereby we can get reasonable and reliable information about people who wish to be our leaders. These ways must not be trusted on their face value but monitoring ways must also be set up so that any misinformation and disinformation could be filtered out. Lies and more lies are very much possible and so there should be serious legal consequences for such poeple.
What I am talking about is media. There should be party based media so that each political party could state its case free of other peoples' interference. This way parties can put forth their own points of views freely as well as criticise other parties involved as they like eg government, other potical parties or people etc etc. There should be state based media, this should keep an eye on all citizens to ensure that all are working for the good of the country as well as it should be free to inform public what the government is upto and how it is progressing. There should be public based media that ensures the public interest that government is working properly to serve them and political parties are working mainly in the public interest. Finally there should be independent media that should keep all in check against each other.
My point here is that unless an individual has proper information one cannot make a proper decision. All remain in the dark and so cunning poeple can get in to power and ruin things for everyone. If we have checks and balances in place bad things will still happen but not at massive scales. Media is best form of our senses ie it can be our eyes and ears. It is the best defence against corruption, abuse, error and negligence etc by anyone ie political parties, government , public etc.
Parties fighting it out against each other is another very good defence against bad things happening in society.
These like things help us prevent bad things from happening in the society and even if any do they can be brought to light straight away so that the situation could be rectified without delay. Each side will keep all others on their toes.
We also need independent judiciary worth the name. It should be there not only for criminal matters but civil matters as well. Justice must be justice, quick and affordable. Again people should be appointed as judges by the public not government or political parties and their performance must be monitored by the public.
As for making laws, the parliament must debate whatever the proposed laws may be regarding anything. The public, the political parties, the government or any individual citizen should be able to propose any law they wish and it should become law only and only if it is agreed that it is benefical for the country as whole or is not damaging to the country at least. No law should be passed that is clearly seen damaging for the country or its citizens. Any law that has been passed its effects must be monitored and if found clearly not for the public good it must be repealed.
Since pakistan is a majority muslim country, all laws in pakistan must be according to the quran within quranic context only if that is what majority of muslims want. It is absolutely vital that the quranic laws are properly understood in their proper context. In my personal view the quranic laws are as good as any other laws for the same thing if not better. I am utterly against theocracy and mullaism or khilafah etc. They are in my view unislamic as per my own understanding of the quran and hadith but that is my personal view and I do not mind discussing these things in great delail for benefit of the poeple.
Quranic democracy is the best form of government that I can think of but no people are ready for it yet because they do not know what it is. If I get the time and opportunity I shall try and explain it. This whole thing needs a lot of time and effort. If people really understood quranic islam I do not think they would want anything other than that outline or framework as a politcal system, structure and practice.
I have already explained that islam is just a set of some directives ie a loose frame work within which we must do all by ourselves the best we can come up with for the benefit of all of us. This is quranic islam and it is not a straght lacket. It is like you have a fence around a field for protection of those inside the fence and within that huge field you are free to do as you please regardless you are a muslim or a kafir. As far as islam is concern you are all brothers and sister a one big family.
031.014 YUSUFALI: And We have enjoined on man (to be good) to his parents: in travail upon travail did his mother bear him, and in years twain was his weaning: (hear the command), "Show gratitude to Me and to thy parents: to Me is (thy final) Goal.
031.015 YUSUFALI: "But if they strive to make thee join in worship with Me things of which thou hast no knowledge, obey them not; yet bear them company in this life with justice (and consideration), and follow the way of those who turn to me (in love): in the end the return of you all is to Me, and I will tell you the truth (and meaning) of all that ye did."
017.023 YUSUFALI: Thy Lord hath decreed that ye worship none but Him, and that ye be kind to parents. Whether one or both of them attain old age in thy life, say not to them a word of contempt, nor repel them, but address them in terms of honour.
060.008 YUSUFALI: Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
029.008 YUSUFALI: We have enjoined on man kindness to parents: but if they (either of them) strive (to force) thee to join with Me (in worship) anything of which thou hast no knowledge, obey them not. Ye have (all) to return to me, and I will tell you (the truth) of all that ye did.
046.015 YUSUFALI: We have enjoined on man kindness to his parents: In pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth. The carrying of the (child) to his weaning is (a period of) thirty months. At length, when he reaches the age of full strength and attains forty years, he says, "O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for Thy favour which Thou has bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness such as Thou mayest approve; and be gracious to me in my issue. Truly have I turned to Thee and truly do I bow (to Thee) in Islam."
Can anyone here see allah telling muslims to kill kafirs just because they are kafirs? No. It tells us even if parent tell you to be a kafir don't disrespect them and treat them as a child should. The only time muslims are allowed to fight with relatives is when war becomes inevitable. That is only in war not when there is peace. The war is only there when unjust parents and relatives impose it on muslim relatives and leave them no choice but to fight back. The question is, is this wrong? If one cannot live with kafirs then how can there be such relationship between parent and children as the quran advises? This again causes contradictions within the quran if people must not be allowed to live with each other like a single family. These like verses clearly tell us that social relationships between human beings are respected in the quran regardless of their religious beliefs.
Let me try and put things in context so that my stand point becomes clear. I think it is wrong to think people are individuals to start with because it is not true. People are interdependent individuals ie they are not here all by themselves but due to others ie parents. Not only that but also we all need others at one time or another so our individuality is just a little part of this whole thing and that is all. As soon as we are born parents take care of us and very soon we too end up as parents so there is no much individuality for us in reality. This is why we have politics because we humans have societies which independent individuals do not need because they do not need anyone ever. It is misleading to think we are gods. It is because we are interdependent individuals that we need political setups as societies so that as societies we could create cultures that suit us for various reasons for catering for our different needs, mental and physical.
This is how the whole thing becomes a religion ie a way of life. This way of life became ways of life and very complex just like ourselves over a very long period of time.
So the question one should ask is, where do we theists and athesits stand in this picture? If we could find our place then our struggle makes sense otherwise it does not. So all we can do is try and find our place before anything else.
There are many discussions and debates about religions, philosophies, politics, bahaviours, ideologies, practices, attitudes etc etc. All we are trying to do is to see how we can live a good life. In this picture we stand on removing ills from the human society without destroying people or their socieites.
The question is what are those ills we wish to remove from our societies? They are what we consider bad for the societies because they hold us back from purposeful freedom, peace coexistence, harmony for unity, cooperation for progress and prosperity. All these are necessary for our happiness to some degree as our end goal.
In the explained context atheists think atheism is good because the idea of god is making poeple fight over religions. However if god is taken out of the equation, are people not going to fight? The answer is that they will still fight because of the things we must have, to be able to have a chance of a happy life. So we need to remove not only such gods as are troublesome but all other such things as well that are obstacle in the way of our happiness ie anti freedom things, anti peace things, anti harmony things, anti cooperation things, anti progress things and anti prosperity things.
If we cannot think this far then all arguments and stand points are useless till we achieve such knowledge. It then matters not whether there is any god or no god. The argument for and against god/s is only worthy of our time if it is beneficial and is a way to a final goal, which is same as goal of all religions including humanism ie peace and happiness for humanity.
This explanation seemed necessary to me so there we have it. I am not here to destroy people but to help them educate themselves and thereby myself towards the goal of better world. In this context I would like people to help each other spot bad things within us and our societies and then do things to let other know about them so that together little by little we can succeed in removing them.
This is why there is no need to destroy any religion or people wholesale but whatever is wrong with them. You do not need to throw away the whole human being if one gets just a limb infected badly. You try and save the life by cutting off the bad part and throwing it away so that it does not causes more damgage or spreads the disease.
This brings us to next question, what should we remove from societies first why and how? For example, is it of utmost importance that we first of all remove idea of god/s from this picture or athesism or should we go for something else or just carry on with whatever we can?
So peole who have some silly notion of arguing for sake of argument without any sensible end goal to share with others are really silly and they are not making the contribution they need to.
Islam in quranic context is not as bad as muslims are making it look. I invite people to study islam in quranic context and then study muslims as well and see where the real problem is. Islam may not be the best religion but I am certain muslims are worst of the people. Why? Because they are trying to make islam what it is not, in a bad way frightening away the whole human race.
Our objective should be to see ills for ourselves, point out those ills to others and try and get cooperation to remove them from islam and muslims. The same should be done about all other religions and poeple and we will end up united and happy.
Let me give you an example, everyone is aware that muslims claim the prophet married his wife ayesha when she was six and consumated his marriage with her when she was 9 years old. This they do on the basis of some so called ahadith in most authentic sunni books of hadith called siha sitta, meaning the set of six most authentic hadith collections eg bukhari, muslim, tirmizi, ibn maja, abu dwud and nisai.
Here is what the quran tells us as law in islam.
004.006 YUSUFALI: Make trial of orphans until they reach the age of marriage; if then ye find sound judgment in them, release their property to them; but consume it not wastefully, nor in haste against their growing up. If the guardian is well-off, Let him claim no remuneration, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is just and reasonable. When ye release their property to them, take witnesses in their presence: But all-sufficient is Allah in taking account.
004.019 YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.
The quran is very clear that there is an age for marriage and that forced marriage is haraam/unlawful. The age of marriage is when two people are able to produce kids and have needed sense to raise a family by being able to take care of the family. One can see when abraham and david and solomon got married and when moses got married. They did not marry child brides. There is no child marriage in the quran.
Marriage is not a duty in islam let alone child marriage. Why would anyone want to marry a baby or not so old person who hardly can lookafter oneself?
Now I ask, a man who gave us the quran and told us this himself, how could he go against this himself? Would people (particularly his enemies) not ask him, wait a minute what the hell is this you think you are doing marrying a child?
I think these are invented hadith may be by people with such tendencies to justify their lust for kids in the name of religion or even in the name prophet of islam.
This has nothing to do with quranic islam in quranic context. The problem does not remain to the hadith rather tafseer books are full of this kind of stuff so we need to be very cafeful what we take as islam and why?
Taleban have been practicing this kind of islam, so I leave it to poeple to decide whether taleban are real muslims or not.
Coming to ahadith, it is clear that people with various objectives have been inventing ahadith to create loopholes in islam for their own ends. Some decided to stone poeple to death for some other revenge and others invented hadith to justify pedophilia and yet others other socially unacceptable things because they are bad.
These people thought they could get away with it because people will look at who said it not what is said. They have been very successful because muslims have been dooped in a great majority. All because people did not educate themselves or failed to scrutinize things properly.
It is good idea not to continue things that way if we wish to make pakistan free of bad things in the name of islam.
more later.
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Hasnain2009
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So the terrorist blowing schools and mosques are being declared "True Followers of Islam" ??
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