Super Su-30 MKI as MRCA

[Kinetic]

How about the biggest disadvantage of the SU series? And that is, the life cycle costs. Their maintenance is astronomical and procuring spare parts from Russia a nightmare!

Now, do you still prefer the Super SUs??

Thats astronomical cost still much lower than Rafale cost, isn't it?

 

[Abingdonboy]

Fench export is small compared to others and Thats why Rafale has been ditched by every buyer till now... It has contested in more than a dozen contracts but failed to win one.

They are the 4th largest defence exporter in the world. The reason the Rafale hasn't scored any export sales till now are numerous and complex but they have little to do with either cost or the Rafale's performance but mostly due to politics. The MMRCA is perhaps the one deal where the Rafale has taken part to date where politics have been removed from the equation and thus the cream has risen to the top....

Yes, we also know that as well ..... its huge $$$$$ in the pockets of many.

Until this can be substantiated this is unnecessary and pretty outrageous slander. To date the MMRCA process has been run efficiently, transparently and apolitically by the IAF and they have been praised for doing so by all sides (including losing bidders) not on allegation has been made about the IAF's conduct during this entire affair and I take great objection to it. Please don't use these kind of speculative remarks to back up your point of view.

Thats astronomical cost still much lower than Rafale cost, isn't it?

I think you'll find the MKI's LIFE cycle costs are FAR higher than the Rafale's. Too many are duped by the ticket/unit price of the airframe alone but this isn't a car you are buying but an incredibly complex machine and only a fool would not factor in life cycle costs, luckily the IAF are no fools....

 

[kaykay]

I am all for Rafale but not on their terms and India must ensure that France accepts all the clauses in RFP else look for other alternatives with or without ToT and focus on AMCA and involve Israel or some other country in the project.

 

[OrionHunter]

Thats astronomical cost still much lower than Rafale cost, isn't it?

Life cycle costs are three times the cost of the aircraft. So which would be more - the Rafale or SU-30MKI?

If life cycle costs, ruggedisation and operating costs are the key then the Gripen NG was king. But then other extraneous factors do kick in during the selection process!

 

[Abingdonboy]

Life cycle costs are three times the cost of the aircraft. Now, figure that out!

If life cycle costs, ruggedisation and operating costs are the key then the Gripen NG was king. But then other extraneous factors do kick in during the selection process!

(unit) Cost is realistically the one area where the MKI beats the Rafale by any significant margin and thus this is the one area many focus on and thus brush aside the fact that 50% of the Rafale's deal will be ploughed back into India (so why don't we reduce the unit price of the Rafale by 50%? ), that MMRCA project was originally meant be transformative for the Indian aerospace industry is also conveniently forgotten by many as is the fact that the Rafale deal is coming with a whole lot more than the planes themselves. If one isn't going to factor in all the associated costs of a first time buy of a system as complex as a Rafale fighter jet into the unit cost then one can't fairly assess the value of the deal.

Realistically this is an incredibly complex subject matter but it is the fact that many here are talking in absolutes "MKI is far cheaper than the Rafale", "French are trying to loot us" etc etc that truly aggravates me.

 

[The_magnificent]

Yeah, that will be a good choice as well.



1) Whats is called western tech'? We made MKI thats one of the advantages.
Western technology is exposure to West european and american technology, we already make these su30s so nothing new coming technologically. Quality, maintainence cost, reliability of western equipment is better thn Russian equipment.
2) No, It will have Brahmos, and loads of ASM and glide bombs.
Does it mean having bramhos onboard will solve every air to ground issues ? if this is the main criteria then even current Mki can carry bramhos in future. We are not going to bang bramhos on everything on ground.
3) It will not take much time like building a Rafale in India. Forgot Scorpene? We signed the deal in 2006 and still we didn't get one.
Depending totally upon Russia can make you a cash cow. Forgot Vikramaditya? Prices can increase many fold and delays can happen as well. Rafale is ready Super MKI is not. If we sign Rafale deal we can start getting them in next 3 year in house production can take 5 - 7 years. God knows when Super MKI will be ready. I do not expect AESA, Engine, ELectronic warfare suite , Lower radar signature to develop within 3 years.

I also think getting Su35 mki is more logical choice if Russia is ready to give TOT. Till now russians have been very reluctant to supply critical technology.
4) No, we will go for Indian AMCA and Tejas mk II as well.
Thats all distant future, Sir , you know very well that AMCA is not gonna happen anytime soon. we can never make a decent 5th generation fighter before 2030 and I am being optimistic. Tejas Mk II is not supposed to be a cutting edge fighter to match J20s or F16s

1) Whats is called western tech'? We made MKI thats one of the advantages.
Western technology is exposure to West european and american technology, we already make these su30s so nothing new coming technologically. Quality, maintainence cost, reliability of western equipment is better thn Russian equipment.
2) No, It will have Brahmos, and loads of ASM and glide bombs.
Does it mean having bramhos onboard will solve every air to ground issues ? if this is the main criteria then even current Mki can carry bramhos in future. We are not going to bang bramhos on everything on ground.
3) It will not take much time like building a Rafale in India. Forgot Scorpene? We signed the deal in 2006 and still we didn't get one.
Depending totally upon Russia can make you a cash cow. Forgot Vikramaditya? Prices can increase many fold and delays can happen as well. Rafale is ready Super MKI is not. If we sign Rafale deal we can start getting them in next 3 year. God knows when Super MKI will be ready. I do not expect AESA, Engine, ELectronic warfare suite , Lower radar signature to develop within 3 years.
4) No, we will go for Indian AMCA and Tejas mk II as well.
Thats all distant future, Sir , you know very well that AMCA is not gonna happen anytime soon. we can never make a decent 5th generation fighter before 2030 and I am being optimistic. Tejas Mk II is not supposed to be a cutting edge fighter to match J20s or F16s (Upgraded)

 

[Jamy]

Im a Rafale lover, but Its unfortunate that Rafale misses the bus. Gurus, Uncle is coming, any chance to get F-35 with minimum possible TOT? The deterrence factor offered by JSF will be unmatchable. The very thought of 126 JSF in the indian inventory itself can demoralize the Chinks.

 

[CONNAN]

As long as we don't develop our own product it dosent matter where we place our eggs

 

[anniyan]

Do know anyone think whether it is correct time to review and invest in Su-54 and Su-55, which was initially proposed for Indian MMRCA competition by Sukhoi.

Sukhoi S-54 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[The enlightened]

Life cycle costs are three times the cost of the aircraft. So which would be more - the Rafale or SU-30MKI?

If life cycle costs, ruggedisation and operating costs are the key then the Gripen NG was king. But then other extraneous factors do kick in during the selection process!

hee hee hee.
So if acc. 2 u, life cycle cost are 3 times the cost of aircraft, then Rafael's LC cost must also be double of MKI.
LOL Anyways please provide proper sources which support your high life cycle cost theory. I asked the same thing to abingbongboy and he quietly chickened out. Lets see whether you are a mouse or not.

 

[Gufi]

I think personally that India should go for the Su-30. There are some interesting points made regarding technology and its application in war here.
India needs quantity as well as quality because it is very difficult for new jets in R n D to stick to a time line. Also there were 2 very interesting posts regarding the use of technology versus pilot skill and futuristic weapons with regards to actual effectiveness written by SvenSvensonov. Also the actual use of some of the technology on the plane in terms of proven capability.
Russia, India Complete Draft Project for Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft
#4 and 6
do not quote to argue with me please on useless issues but i would love to hear what @Abingdonboy and @Kinetic have to say as they favor 2 different options.

 

[OrionHunter]

hee hee hee.
So if acc. 2 u, life cycle cost are 3 times the cost of aircraft, then Rafael's LC cost must also be double of MKI.
LOL Anyways please provide proper sources which support your high life cycle cost theory. I asked the same thing to abingbongboy and he quietly chickened out. Lets see whether you are a mouse or not.

India simply has no expertise to calculate these — and much of the analytic framework for it is provided by Western suppliers — having never developed any metrics ourselves over the years, until now when “life cycle” has become a new thing to befuddle the GOI with.

The US — originators of the life cycle cost-concept has an entire training institution to train economists and accountants to learn the extremely complex accounting and costing schemata. IAF- MoD have not picked up other than surface notions and are running with it!

This calculation has been done based on Western sources. In other words, it boils down to a back-of-the-envelope calculation that Life Cycle Costs are roughly 2-3 times the ab initio cost of the aircraft.

 

[The enlightened]

India simply has no expertise to calculate these — and much of the analytic framework for it is provided by Western suppliers — having never developed any metrics ourselves over the years, until now when “life cycle” has become a new thing to befuddle the GOI with.

The US — originators of the life cycle cost-concept has an entire training institution to train economists and accountants to learn the extremely complex accounting and costing schemata. IAF- MoD have not picked up other than surface notions and are running with it!

This calculation has been done based on Western sources. In other words, it boils down to a back-of-the-envelope calculation that Life Cycle Costs are roughly 2-3 times the ab initio cost of the aircraft.

In other words, you have no idea what you are talking about.

You and @Abingdonboy are a real piece of art. Even @sancho looking at one other thread on Sukhoi's maintanence cost. Anyway, please carry on 'mighty experts'
hee hee hee

 

[war is peace]

Pure craps Who told you France is 4th defence exporter. Lol

 

[sancho]

As long as we don't develop our own product it dosent matter where we place our eggs

It does! LCA and MKI Vs. LCA, Rafale/EF, MKI. The one side is mainly dependent on Russia, with minor Indian side, while the other is more balanced by spreading the dependance to more sides.
But as long as we are not able to develop proper indigenous fighters and techs, we will remain on imports and then spreading is better.