Submarine Sale will not Break Indo-Pakistan Military Balance: Chinese Media

[mkb95]

BEIJING: Defending China's move to sell eight submarines to Pakistan, the Chinese official media today said the deal will not break the Indo-Pak military balance.
"...It will take eight to 10 years for Pakistan to incorporate the eight submarines from China into its combat capacity," an article in state-run Global Times said, the first comment in the Chinese media on the deal.
"It will be extremely hard to break the military balance of India and Pakistan with the latest acquisition. Pakistan is actually trying to prevent the gap between its naval strength and India's from widening," it said.
"The $4-5 billion deal (with Pakistan) is reportedly China's largest ever arms deal and can be a milestone in China's arms export. Some consider the deal as a new benchmark for China's arms trade that grows with its increasing military strength," it said.
Dismissing the concerns that the sale will alter the military balance in South Asia, the article said the Indian Navy has two aircraft carriers in service and is building a new indigenous one. It has 15 submarines, almost twice that of Pakistan.
"More importantly, India's domestically developed nuclear-powered submarine, INS Arihant, has undergone several sea trials and will soon enter service. New Delhi is also planning at least six more nuclear-powered submarines," it said.
"Besides, the construction of submarines will be carried out in China and Pakistan simultaneously with four built in Karachi, which means China may transfer the submarine construction technology to Pakistan. But this is a proper pattern of cooperation that is accepted internationally," it said.
Pakistan opted to buy Chinese subs after it failed to acquire new-type conventional submarines from France and Germany due to factors like price and technology transfer, it said.
"It finally picked China's conventional submarines out of the burning need to protect its maritime security and because of the high quality but reasonable price of Chinese products," the article said without disclosing the details.
Strangely the article written by Qian Feng, councillor of the Chinese Association for South Asian Studies, quotes Pakistan Federal Minister for Defence Production Rana Tanveer Hussain's announcement about the submarine deal with China, which Beijing or its official media is yet to officially confirm.

 

[Assault Rifle]

So the deliveries will take at least 8-10 years to complete.
So there goes the dreams of PDF pakistanis who were claiming all 8 subs will be inducted by 2020 down the drain.

 

[Areesh]

So the deliveries will take at least 8-10 years to complete.
So there goes the dreams of PDF pakistanis who were claiming all 8 subs will be inducted by 2020 down the drain.

Chal to yeh soch kar khush hoja.

 

[Transhumanist]

So the deliveries will take at least 8-10 years to complete.

8 to 10 years to incorporate them into a combat capacity, not 8 to 10 years to deliver the submarines. Pakistan will have them relatively soon, but it will take time to train on the subs and implement doctrine changes to make more effective use of deep-water AIP submarines, compared to the SSC (littoral DE/AIP subs) that it currently operates, which are better suited for coastal defense duties.

According to an early assessment by the US Naval Institute, the Yuan class was primarily designed as "an anti-ship cruise missile (ASCM) platform capable of hiding submerged for long periods of time in difficult to access shallow littorals.".However, this assessment was later corrected by USNI to include an open-ocean capability which can be utilized beyond coastal waters, as the hull size was found to be larger than initial calculations. Also updated was its role within China's naval fleet, and as of August 2015 it is considered to be a more traditional attack submarine, with a secondary ASCM role.

Pakistan's S20 is an export version of the Type 39A. the export version has its AIP omitted, so Pakistan's may not have an AIP propulsion system, though Pakistan is offered more sensitive Chinese equipment due to their high-level partnership, so they may be offered an exception. At this point such details are unclear.

Nice.

 

[monitor]

Defending China's move to sell eight submarines to Pakistan, the Chinese official media today said the deal will not break the Indo-Pak military balance.

why they have to defend their sell . they are not selling anything illegal

 

[Windjammer]

So the deliveries will take at least 8-10 years to complete.
So there goes the dreams of PDF pakistanis who were claiming all 8 subs will be inducted by 2020 down the drain.

Comprehension issues much...... there's a difference between delivery and becoming fully operational for combat.


"...It will take eight to 10 years for Pakistan to incorporate the eight submarines from China into its combat capacity,

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Next Stop Frigates

 

[Umair Nawaz]

8 to 10 years to incorporate them into a combat capacity, not 8 to 10 years to deliver the submarines. Pakistan will have them relatively soon, but it will take time to train on the subs and implement doctrine changes to make more effective use of deep-water AIP submarines, compared to the SSC (littoral DE/AIP subs) that it currently operates, which are better suited for coastal defense duties.

According to an early assessment by the US Naval Institute, the Yuan class was primarily designed as "an anti-ship cruise missile (ASCM) platform capable of hiding submerged for long periods of time in difficult to access shallow littorals.".However, this assessment was later corrected by USNI to include an open-ocean capability which can be utilized beyond coastal waters, as the hull size was found to be larger than initial calculations. Also updated was its role within China's naval fleet, and as of August 2015 it is considered to be a more traditional attack submarine, with a secondary ASCM role.

Pakistan's S20 is an export version of the Type 39A. the export version has its AIP omitted, so Pakistan's may not have an AIP propulsion system, though Pakistan is offered more sensitive Chinese equipment due to their high-level partnership, so they may be offered an exception. At this point such details are unclear.

Nice.

Pakistani S20s will come with AIP system S20s dont surely come by default with AIP but according to user requirement can be fitted. However its not conformed if its Type 39 or Type 41.

 

[Transhumanist]

However its not conformed if its Type 39 or Type 41

Type 39A is Type 41, with S20 being the export designation:

The official Chinese designation is 039A as the ship is based on the 039 class, but as the 039A has very little resemblance to the 039 it is commonly referred to as the Type 041.

Pakistani S20s will come with AIP system S20s dont surely come by default with AIP but according to user requirement can be fitted.

Yes, but it's a separate purchase, not included in the cost of the submarine:

The main difference between S20 and Type 039A is that the AIP system on the original Type 039A is deleted, but can be available and easily integrated due to modular design of S20, if potential customers choose to purchase AIP systems separately.

It may be likely that Pakistan procured an AIP propulsion system, since it has experience with them via its Agosta 90Bs, but it's not yet clear if this is actually the case.

 

[Windjammer]

Hussain also highlighted a transfer of technology agreement, with a training facility established in Karachi for this purpose.

State-owned shipyard Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW) already has experience with submarine overhaul and construction and will build the subs.

Analyst, author and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad Brian Cloughley says joint construction suits both parties, but even with a transfer of technology, Pakistan will still be reliant on China.

"It is in the interests of both parties to have as much as possible manufactured in Pakistan, but of course the really high-tech systems will have to come from China, as it's simply not cost-effective for Pakistan to gear up to make them," such as the AIP capability, Cloughley said.

Cloughley believes construction will likely commence next year: "Given the way KSEW has been managed and expanded over the past few years I expect construction could begin as early as mid-2016. There has already been liaison and training in shipbuilding and the training center is formalization of this on a rather larger scale, with the focus entirely on submarines, of course."

These submarines have been linked by analysts to securing the sea-based arm of Pakistan's nuclear triad. However, according to recent Chinese media reports, Pakistan's access to the military grade Chinese Beidou-II (BDS-2) satellite navigation network is perhaps of equal importance.

Mansoor Ahmed, Stanton Nuclear Security junior faculty fellow at the Harvard Kennedy School's Belfer Center and expert on Pakistan's nuclear deterrent and delivery systems, said the ability of Pakistan's submarines to accurately position themselves is critical to their nuclear-deterrent role and the country's strategic assets as a whole.

"The BDS-2 satellite system will greatly enhance Pakistan's access to much needed ISR capabilities required for deployment of strategic forces at sea on submarine platforms. Unlike India, which is seeking to build a dedicated fleet of SSBN's [ballistic missile submarines] armed with SLBMs [submarine-launched ballistic missiles], Pakistan's force posture is purely defensive and India-centric for which AIP-equipped conventional submarines provide a reliable solution in terms of maintaining a cost-effective deterrent at sea," he said.

He says these submarines will generally be quieter than India's Arihant SSBNs and deployed within striking distance of India's coastlines armed with the submarine-launched variant of Pakistan's Babur cruise missile.

Pakistan, China Finalize 8-Sub Construction Plan

 

[Areesh]

Comprehension issues much...... there's a difference between delivery and becoming fully operational for combat.


"...It will take eight to 10 years for Pakistan to incorporate the eight submarines from China into its combat capacity,

The famous a$$hole of PDF @Assault Rifle missed the fact that there is also time required for training so that your officers and sailors don't blow up a submarine in your own port like it happened with one country.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Type 39A is Type 41, which S20 being the export designation:

The official Chinese designation is 039A as the ship is based on the 039 class, but as the 039A has very little resemblance to the 039 it is commonly referred to as the Type 041.



Yes, but it's a separate purchase, not included in the cost of the submarine:

The main difference between S20 and Type 039A is that the AIP system on the original Type 039A is deleted, but can be available and easily integrated due to modular design of S20, if potential customers choose to purchase AIP systems separately.

It may be likely that Pakistan procured an AIP propulsion system, since it has experience with them via its Agosta 90Bs, but it's not yet clear if this is actually the case.

from what i know it is under this 4-5 billion. And what we r buying (with them) is Sterling AIP.

 

[JohnyD]

why they have to defend their sell . they are not selling anything illegal

they are aping the US

 

[indianBong]

Pakistan opted to buy Chinese subs after it failed to acquire new-type conventional submarines from France and Germany due to factors like price and technology transfer, it said.
"It finally picked China's conventional submarines out of the burning need to protect its maritime security and because of the high quality but reasonable price of Chinese products,"

@Transhumanist ....is it really high quality??? i mean comparable to france n german tech? coz if it was so why pakistan went for france and germany initially....

 

[Windjammer]

The famous a$$hole of PDF @Assault Rifle missed the fact that there is also time required for training so that your officers and sailors don't blow up a submarine in your own port like it happened with one country.

Poor guys are going through bad times.....Tejas grounded, Missile test fails.... Ecuador cancels order for more Dhruv.....no end to the MMRCA carry on,,,,,so they need some form of solace....not thinking that even if it were 8 to 10 years, the Subs are on their way. !!!