Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[mean_bird]

You're going to have a tough time having even one complete squadron of MKIs in the air at any given moment in time, what with all their reliability and operational issues. You seem to be a big fan of the Red Flag video, why don't you go watch it again. So, yes, as far as Pakistani border goes, the AWACS will offer great coverage, but realistically, not all MKIs could be covered.

Add to that intelligence!

Its highly unlikely that planes would be popping out from where they aren't expected. In other words, intelligence should give you a good idea of where each of these planes would be so you know where and how to focus you attention.

 

[messenger]

You're going to have a tough time having even one complete squadron of MKIs in the air at any given moment in time, what with all their reliability and operational issues. You seem to be a big fan of the Red Flag video, why don't you go watch it again. So, yes, as far as Pakistani border goes, the AWACS will offer great coverage, but realistically, not all MKIs could be covered.



Well, if we went platform vs platform, there wouldn't be much to debate at all. On paper, the MKI wins hands down because it is, as you say, 4.5 Gen. We are discussing real scenarios here, and AWACS, intelligence, strategy, training, operational readiness, air defense ground environment etc. all come into the mix. This is why I mentioned all those things including LCC, MTBF etc. in my post above. In a real scenario, these things matter. There is no point in having 230 MKIs if u can't get one up in the air for 15 minutes. You're better off flying the old "coffins".



Well, not to get side-tracked, but we don't refer to Indians as anything but Indians on this forum. If you go to BR, you see a lot of Porkistani, Bakristani etc. type name-calling. That is racism in its purest form. Seriously, the average IQ level of that forum must be negative. It is a very, very poor representation of your nation. If you care about how others view your country, you must criticize BR as well.

Lastly, you are correct, according to the USAF pilot (the same pilot that Indian fanboys hate) the MKI is slightly better than the F-16s, but that slight difference can be remedied by strategy and tactics. The USAF wasn't playing defense, they were on the offense (hence the name, Agressors), whereas the PAF's primary priority woul dbe defense of Pakistani airspace. Don't take Cope India or Red Flag as a real Indo-Pak situation. These should just be used as indicators.

well i didnt come across the words you mentioned in BR . but if its so then its very bad and i will stop visiting that site .

'''''You're going to have a tough time having even one complete squadron of MKIs in the air at any given moment in time'''''

'''''There is no point in having 230 MKIs if u can't get one up in the air for 15 minutes'''''

how can you say so . can you provide some news or info . do you know that mki pilots were trained to fly for 10 hours straight . and there ha been no serviceability issue till now . and what are the operational issues . just that it costs more to fly and needs more maintainence doesnt mean that they will not be used to their maximum extent in case of war .

i have not even seen the complete video but just heard about it , so lets not talk about it .

 

[messenger]

You're going to have a tough time having even one complete squadron of MKIs in the air at any given moment in time, what with all their reliability and operational issues. You seem to be a big fan of the Red Flag video, why don't you go watch it again. So, yes, as far as Pakistani border goes, the AWACS will offer great coverage, but realistically, not all MKIs could be covered.



Well, if we went platform vs platform, there wouldn't be much to debate at all. On paper, the MKI wins hands down because it is, as you say, 4.5 Gen. We are discussing real scenarios here, and AWACS, intelligence, strategy, training, operational readiness, air defense ground environment etc. all come into the mix. This is why I mentioned all those things including LCC, MTBF etc. in my post above. In a real scenario, these things matter. There is no point in having 230 MKIs if u can't get one up in the air for 15 minutes. You're better off flying the old "coffins".



Well, not to get side-tracked, but we don't refer to Indians as anything but Indians on this forum. If you go to BR, you see a lot of Porkistani, Bakristani etc. type name-calling. That is racism in its purest form. Seriously, the average IQ level of that forum must be negative. It is a very, very poor representation of your nation. If you care about how others view your country, you must criticize BR as well.

Lastly, you are correct, according to the USAF pilot (the same pilot that Indian fanboys hate) the MKI is slightly better than the F-16s, but that slight difference can be remedied by strategy and tactics. The USAF wasn't playing defense, they were on the offense (hence the name, Agressors), whereas the PAF's primary priority woul dbe defense of Pakistani airspace. Don't take Cope India or Red Flag as a real Indo-Pak situation. These should just be used as indicators.

well i didnt come across the words you mentioned in BR . but if its so then its very bad and i will stop visiting that site .

'''''You're going to have a tough time having even one complete squadron of MKIs in the air at any given moment in time'''''

'''''There is no point in having 230 MKIs if u can't get one up in the air for 15 minutes'''''

how can you say so . can you provide some news or info . do you know that mki pilots were trained to fly for 10 hours straight . and there ha been no serviceability issue till now . and what are the operational issues . just that it costs more to fly and needs more maintainence doesnt mean that they will not be used to their maximum extent in case of war .

i have not even seen the complete video but just heard about it , so lets not talk about it .

 

[FC-20]

^^^^
if u hav not seen tht video, then u mus c it, and Pakistanis here r rite bout BR, u jus go n c wats going on BR, those r jus bunch of illiterate ppl with no sense at all

 

[hj786]

yes mr defene analysist can you answer my simple question that i asked in my post.

he said jf-17 has HMCS with extreme pride . see his post . then i said mki also has HMCS . this shows you dont read posts carefully .

and dude be practical . you think your AWACS would be able to cover all 230 mki's .

Mr Defence Analyst? I'll take that as a compliment coming from you, Mr Fanboy. Show me which questions I did not answer properly. I said JF-17 has HMCS for a reason - it negates some of the sukhoi's manoeuvrability advantages. This is one fact you do not seem to want to accept. I already know the sukhoi has a HMCS, does the sukhoi's HMCS magically make the JF's HMCS disappear?

and when you are comparing aircrafts , you are comparing them and not AWACS .i dont understand his everytime we start a debate on mki vs jf-17 / f-16 or any other PAF fighter . the first thing pakistani members do is drag AWACS . and if you still want to do this , you can change the name of the thread to jf-17 + AWACS vs mki .

So what? Yes, lets change the name of the thread. Or you can start a new one if you like. Anything to make you happy.

and about BR . you say it's all racism . what you dont want to believe , you tag it as racism .

You show me what you think I don't want to believe, I'll show you what I tag as racism.

can you plz tell me what are the facts that you are focusing on . you see actually im a fanboy , so im a little short on info.
"""""If you want people to spell correctly, first you use capital letters and punctuation properly.""""""
this just shows how desperate you are .

The facts I'm focusing on don't matter to you, so how will they stop you being short on info? Above is an example, you don't want to accept that the JF's HMCS negates some of the MKI's advantage in manoeuvrability, you just come back with "sukhoi has it too". You're saying the JF's HMCS doesn't make any difference?

Nope, it just shows what an idiot you are. You will complain to somebody about their spelling, but when you are criticised for your own poor use of english (not using capital letters and punctuation properly) you get defensive and call me "desperate".

 

[Patriot]

and dude be practical . you think your AWACS would be able to cover all 230 mki's .
--
Yes, they would be able to track all MKi's within their range and frankly Pakistan does not have to look more deep into India.We will have multiple AWACS so we can cover eastern as well as Western Side.

 

[Zob]

Why are we comparing these two?! I mean every single Pakistani knows deep inside, Jf-17 can not stand infront of Su-30MKI in any circumstance(forget about strategy and real time situation;we wouldnt have to talk then), unless you severely handicap the Su-30 pilot or put the 21st century Red Baron in the Jf-17

Damn we got a MIND READER HERE......can u guys please not ATTACK us and destroy us...no no let me use the proper words from BR...."WIPE US FROM THIS PLANET".....and as for RED BARON....well my friend please send up one of ur MKIs into our airspace and then see...all our pilots for us are RED BARONs hell sc*ew RED BARON they all r M.M.ALAMs for us....hope u realise that not only u can be patriotic now stick to the topic

 

[Zob]

yes mr defene analysist can you answer my simple question that i asked in my post.

he said jf-17 has HMCS with extreme pride . see his post . then i said mki also has HMCS . this shows you dont read posts carefully .

and dude be practical . you think your AWACS would be able to cover all 230 mki's .

and about BR . you say it's all racism . what you dont want to believe , you tag it as racism .



can you plz tell me what are the facts that you are focusing on . you see actually im a fanboy , so im a little short on info .


"""""If you want people to spell correctly, first you use capital letters and punctuation properly.""""""

this just shows how desperate you are .

ohh boy....we are desperate and we can't spell either.... unlike you i wasn't born on the ten downing street mr prime minster...but oh well i am just waiting for you to piss off keysersoze...but honestly i like u man don't want u 2 go its getting boring here these days we need people like you to keep us entertained..so get in line before you get kicked out.....

 

[messenger]

ohh boy....we are desperate and we can't spell either.... unlike you i wasn't born on the ten downing street mr prime minster...but oh well i am just waiting for you to piss off keysersoze...but honestly i like u man don't want u 2 go its getting boring here these days we need people like you to keep us entertained..so get in line before you get kicked out.....

thank you . im glad that im entertaining you . well you want me to piss off . why is that so . just because i say that my nation's plane is better than yours . dude thats good that you are not a moderator or there would have been no indian on this site .

 

[messenger]

Mr Defence Analyst? I'll take that as a compliment coming from you, Mr Fanboy. Show me which questions I did not answer properly. I said JF-17 has HMCS for a reason - it negates some of the sukhoi's manoeuvrability advantages. This is one fact you do not seem to want to accept. I already know the sukhoi has a HMCS, does the sukhoi's HMCS magically make the JF's HMCS disappear?
So what? Yes, lets change the name of the thread. Or you can start a new one if you like. Anything to make you happy.
You show me what you think I don't want to believe, I'll show you what I tag as racism.

The facts I'm focusing on don't matter to you, so how will they stop you being short on info? Above is an example, you don't want to accept that the JF's HMCS negates some of the MKI's advantage in manoeuvrability, you just come back with "sukhoi has it too". You're saying the JF's HMCS doesn't make any difference?

Nope, it just shows what an idiot you are. You will complain to somebody about their spelling, but when you are criticised for your own poor use of english (not using capital letters and punctuation properly) you get defensive and call me "desperate".

you get happy when some fanboy calls you a defence analysist . well actually thats called mocking if you didnt understand . well now it doesnt matter .

regarding HMCS - you really dont read posts . read some of the previous posts and you will realize who started boasting of HMCS .

regarding the question that you didnt answer . again , read the posts . one of your friends has already answered it , maybe he saw the question and you didnt . maybe your PC magically dissapeared my question .

well regarding jf-17 vs mki , you cant even convince a wise Bangladeshi how can you convince it to anyone else .

well you compare those planes that are worth comparing . it would have been a good debate if would have been mki vs j-10 , but mki vs jf-17 is a bit out of picture . you can compare jf-17 with mirage 2000 , mig-29 and lca .
do we compare our mig-21 bisons to your f-16 's . NO .

and please stop talking about AWACS and AWACS . next time you will say that we dont need any radars in our planes cause we have got AWACS .

well your choice of words shows that you are a getting unneccesarily angry . dont be . debate always helps . atleast it's helping me .

 

[maverick2009]

I have missed something here.

PAF does not have AWACS or do they ????

SU30 MKI is a operational fighter with 5 squadrons as we speak.

JF17 is in testing with 8 prototypes i think. At this stage wat the JF17 carries in terms of electronics and armament is conjecture.

People are mixing conjecture and like to have with FACT.

The F16 blk 52 with superb Amraam missle and APG68 radar will go 1v1 against SU30MKI.

JF17 is the workhorse of PAF its whole doctrine is bulk buy to do the basic right and minimal cost and technolog...wen it finally arrives in combat mode.

 

[zombie:-)]

I have missed something here.

PAF does not have AWACS or do they ????

SU30 MKI is a operational fighter with 5 squadrons as we speak.

JF17 is in testing with 8 prototypes i think. At this stage wat the JF17 carries in terms of electronics and armament is conjecture.

People are mixing conjecture and like to have with FACT.

The F16 blk 52 with superb Amraam missle and APG68 radar will go 1v1 against SU30MKI.

JF17 is the workhorse of PAF its whole doctrine is bulk buy to do the basic right and minimal cost and technolog...wen it finally arrives in combat mode.

MAN this thread is filled with expectations not facts please rename the thread as POSSIBLE SU-30 JF-17 AIRFIGHT

 

[godsavetheworld]

So you will happily shout "USA admitted mki outperformed F-16", but you won't admit any of the following:
- It was not real combat, it was an exercise designed to improve relations between air forces.
- As per an ex-PAF instructor pilot who has observed Red Flag exercises in the USA, it does not compare to real air combat exercises.
- F-16 and F-15 WHOOPED the mki in this exercise to the point where InAF pilots did not want to do any more dogfighting.
- In Cope India, F-15 also was also heavily handicapped - not allowed to use it's radar and AMRAAM capability properly.

Isn't that a double standard Mr savetheworld? You'll happily accept anything to make the sukhoi look good, but you refuse to show both sides of the story?

You are contradicting yourself in your post. While you accuse me of having double standards, you are doing the same in the 3rd and the 4th point.

Cope India had Su-30s and F-15/16's employing the same rules laid down. Su-30's were not using many of their capabilities so werent the F-15's. Since both were equally handicapped, the battle was fair, and Su-30s whooped the F-15/16's.

In the Red Flag, you had Su-30's handicapping themselves. All other fighters including F-15/f-16s were using most of their "necessary" capabilities. Su-30 was blind.

Whether or not you want to believe the facts is not my problem, because I am thoroughly convinced about Su-30's superiority. And to add to my claim, the USAF Colonel himself admitted that Su-30s were far better than F-15/16.

 

[BATMAN]

I have missed something here.

PAF does not have AWACS or do they ????

Just Google PAF AWACS and you will learn all what you have missed.

SU30 MKI is a operational fighter with 5 squadrons as we speak.

Are you sure on this?
what we know is that half of SU30MKI fleet is not operational due to spares issue with Russia.

JF17 is in testing with 8 prototypes i think. At this stage wat the JF17 carries in terms of electronics and armament is conjecture.

People are mixing conjecture and like to have with FACT.

Pakistan had serial produced 8 Thunders on 23rd march 2007.
PAF is looking forward to field first squarden of THUNDER’s.
Thunder have every thing what is expected out of 4th generation fighter; some features are incorporated from 5th generation fighters, like DSI etc.
If you need basic information than I advise you to browse its official website.
I think you will agree that It is better than some one copy paste information for you and if you have questions about specific missile than you may ask.

The F16 blk 52 with superb Amraam missle and APG68 radar will go 1v1 against SU30MKI.

THUNDERs will definitely be equipped with IR missile and KLJ-10 but its A2A wepon list has little bit more to it.
Amramm is another IR missel and its integration to Thunders has been done at prototype stage but let see what is the final choice, French meteor was also on cards and is even better choice than Amramm.

When you talk about pitching SU30 against F-16 blk 52 on 1 to 1 than clearly F16 is winner. I don’t want to go to detail but its because SU-30 is not a dogfighter it is suppose to be a strike role aircraft and would not wish to face any dogfighter on 1 to 1 as you said, refer to the recent red flag exercise results.
USAF pilot describes IAF Su-30MKI performance at Red Flag-08 - The DEW Line
On the other hand mig-29 is a real dog fighter. But in real scenario no aircraft will be allowed to fly on its own and only advantage of SU-30 is its ECM suite and I wonder in dog fight scenario how advantageous would it be!

FYI, The best advantage of F-16 over other comparable fighters is its faster turn rate and THUNDER match F-16 1 to 1 on maneuverability account.

Please, stop the approach, when you cannot face facts than start acting dumb.

JF17 is the workhorse of PAF its whole doctrine is bulk buy to do the basic right and minimal cost and technolog...wen it finally arrives in combat mode.

THUNDER’s cost is less because it is not designed and built in west and it is not built as air-superiority fighter that it should cost like one.
Its development cost was lower than any comparable aircraft.
THUNDER is built as a multirole and point defence fighter depending on incorporated features of choice. It is a custom build fighter based on PAF requirements and experience.
FC-20 will serve as air-superiority fighter for PAF and naturally will be more expensive.

 

[BATMAN]

MAN this thread is filled with expectations not facts please rename the thread as POSSIBLE SU-30 JF-17 AIRFIGHT

Facts for your eyes:

dcDnmOZiVIQ[/media] - JF 17 Thunder Fighter (New Video April 2009) Pak-China Evolution