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South Korea’s population shrinks for first time ever, with trend expected to worsen amid Covid-19

Still going to be 1 billion+ strong, but backed by automation, AI and hypersonic missiles.

Barbaric hordes of slaves whipped, bribed and held at gunpoint by their overseers can never defeat ingenuity and progress.
 
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South Korea nominal $ gdp per capita 30700, Turkey 7800.

Lol nominal GDP per capita is pretty useless measure since 99% of the population engages in local markets day to day, not international markets in dollars.

PPP is a much better measure to guage citizenery's prosperity.

Besides, the crux of my post remains the same. If you want to see everything in nominal GDP terms...S. Korea transitioned into below replacement fertility at merely ~$2k per capita while Turkey did it at ~ 9k per capita. The proportional difference is even higher in favor of Turkey (altho, again, nominal per capita is bs and doesn't tell us anything)

I dont know why some Chinese in this thread are getting their arsehole peppered like inferiority-complex stricken, overly-defensive bakhts :lol: All I have said is that East Asia's...esp Korea's...economic model was miraculous in terms of productivity growth but this model severally lacked balanced and holistic approach to long term societal development, as I have discussed in this post
 
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Life is too str
Lol nominal GDP per capita is pretty useless measure since 99% of the population engages in local markets day to day, not international markets in dollars.

PPP is a much better measure to guage citizenery's prosperity.

Besides, the crux of my post remains the same. If you want to see everything in nominal GDP terms...S. Korea transitioned into below replacement fertility at merely ~$2k per capita while Turkey did it at ~ 9k per capita. The proportional difference is even higher in favor of Turkey (altho, again, nominal per capita is bs and doesn't tell us anything)

East Asia's...esp Korea's...economic model was miraculous in terms of productivity growth but this model severally lacked balanced and holistic approach to long term societal development.
Please stop the Turkey worship. It's cringeworthy. Nobody takes Turkey as a developed country and compare it with SK for example.
 
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Life is too str

Please stop the Turkey worship. It's cringeworthy. Nobody takes Turkey as a developed country and compare it with SK for example.

LMAO nobody claimed Turkey is as developed as Korea. Its not.

I know you are too low IQ to understand my post even though I specifically wrote in my post as to why I chose Turkey (Hint: Both Korea and Turkey had almost same population and were similarly low income at the starting of comparison (1960)). If this thread was about Greece/Poland/Hungary etc....I would have compared them to may be Kazakhstan or Israel or something.

But then again, as I said, seeing who you are....its understandable why you wouldn't get these things :lol:

Edit: This is the context of the post you quoted. Wonder if you just saw my post and thought I was comparing Turkey to Korea economically. The context was different (optimal route to holistic societal development)
 
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SK has large population for a small country. Portugal is the same size but only 10 millions. People worry about Japan for decades but they seem ok. The Earth has too many people. Decreasing is good thing. In the future, they can change their mind and population will be increased again.
 
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Do you honestly believe immigrants to the West consist mostly of refugees/extremists?

Some laughable idiot Chinese trying to hide his countries glaring demographic problems: Do YoU MeAn WE TaKE immIGrAntS fRom AfRica lIke WesT? LoL

Immigrant from Africa in West:

1609802189118.png


:cheesy: :lol:

Yes, not all immigrants are Elon Musk. And yes, immigration does cause social friction in US etc. However, only an ignoramus will deny the huge competitive advantage immigration has provided for countries like the U.S.

Half of US' fortune 500 companies were started by immigrants or their first generation children. No Chinese company even comes close to the global recognition and prestige that American brands enjoy---whether its Coca Cola, Pepsi, McDonalds, Apple, Tesla, Google, Microsoft, Boeing...

Lets be real: Culturally European America dominates world culture and soft power in a way Chinese can't even dream of in next 100 years, even if they build up their military and surpass US in GDP figures. China was always a regional culture, not a global one.
 
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Life is too str

Please stop the Turkey worship. It's cringeworthy. Nobody takes Turkey as a developed country and compare it with SK for example.
Turkey is pretty developed but its not close to South Korea though ... but then again South Korea is like in the top 10 of developed countries so it doesn't really matter.
Some laughable idiot Chinese trying to hide his countries glaring demographic problems: Do YoU MeAn WE TaKE immIGrAntS fRom AfRica lIke WesT? LoL

Immigrant from Africa in West:

View attachment 703382

:cheesy: :lol:

Yes, not all immigrants are Elon Musk. And yes, immigration does cause social friction in US etc. However, only an ignoramus will deny the huge competitive advantage immigration has provided for countries like the U.S.

Half of US' fortune 500 companies were started by immigrants or their first generation children. No Chinese company even comes close to the global recognition and prestige that American brands enjoy---whether its Coca Cola, Pepsi, McDonalds, Apple, Tesla, Google, Microsoft, Boeing...

Lets be real: Culturally European America dominates world culture and soft power in a way Chinese can't even dream of in next 100 years, even if they build up their military and surpass US in GDP figures. China was always a regional culture, not a global one.
You cannot just attribute America's success to immigration ... without America's political or economic institutions, then immigrants would not have been nearly as successful. Look at immigrants to other countries ... are they nearly as successful as those who immigrate to America? I'm not discreding immigrants or anything but a huge debt is owed to the US structure which fosters successful immigration.
 
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Turkey is pretty developed but its not close to South Korea though ... but then again South Korea is like in the top 10 of developed countries so it doesn't really matter.

You cannot just attribute America's success to immigration ... without America's political or economic institutions, then immigrants would not have been nearly as successful. Look at immigrants to other countries ... are they nearly as successful as those who immigrate to America? I'm not discreding immigrants or anything but a huge debt is owed to the US structure which fosters successful immigration.

Absolutely. That's why I said immigration has been a 'competitive edge' to US, not that it is the primary reason for US domination.

The credit goes to US 100% in being a land that allowed immigrants to prosper when their own countries failed them mostly.
 
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South Korea’s population shrank last year for the first time in its history, according to new figures, revealing a worrying trend that is only expected to worsen in 2021 amid the coronavirus pandemic.

There were 20,838 fewer people living in South Korea at the end of 2020 than there had been a year earlier, the latest census data from the Ministry of Interior and Safety showed, as a declining birth rate failed to make up for the number of deaths recorded in the country last year.

Births were down 10.65 per cent year on year, with 275,815 recorded in 2020, while deaths were up 3.1 per cent to 307,764, the data showed. South Korea’s population now stands at just under 51.83 million.

“This is worse than expected,” said Choi Jin-ho, a professor of sociology at Anjou University in Suwon, south of Seoul. “And due to the aftermath of the Covid-19 pandemic, the number of births in the new year is feared to fall further.”

Choi said rising unemployment, mounting housing costs and other financial burdens associated with having children had deterred many young Koreans from marrying or starting a family over the past year. Official projections had put the average number of births in South Korea between 2020 and 2025 at 297,000, but last year’s actual births came up short by more than 20,000.

The ministry said in a statement that it was the first time that “the number of newborn babies failed to make up for the number of deaths” since the country started collecting population data after the end of the Korean war in 1953.

South Korea has the lowest fertility rate of any country in the world, reaching as low as 0.84 in the third quarter of last year – a far cry from its peak of about 5.6 in the early 1950s. The global average is around 2.5 children per woman, according to the United Nations, while a rate of 2.1 is needed for the number of babies being born to effectively balance out a country’s death rate.

An estimated 185 trillion won (US$171 billion) has been spent over the past 14 years by successive administrations in Seoul on incentives aimed at increasing new births.

Yet for Korean parents such as 38-year-old Jimmy Lee, the expense of raising one child was enough.

“We are going all-in on raising our first and only child in the best environment that we can offer rather than having two or three children and raising them inadequately”, said the mother to a 10-year-old boy.

In the southern suburbs of Seoul where she lives, it can cost as much as 2 million won (US$1,850) per month to hire a babysitter and 1.5 million won to send a child to a private kindergarten, she said, adding there are long waiting lists for less costly preschools.

“Many women who work at small companies have to quit their jobs in order to look after their children as they would have to pay the lion’s share of their earnings to hire babysitters”, Lee said.

Other Korean women like Shin Eun-ji have no intention of getting married or having children.

“I can manage to get by alone now but if I get married and start a family, it would be quite a burden for me to pay for living costs, repay housing loans and finance the education of the children”, said the 30-year-old employee of a company in Seoul.
“Many small and middle-sized companies don’t give their employees parental leave and women there have their careers cut short if they get pregnant. Under these circumstances, many women choose to avoid having babies.”

In an editorial, the English-language Korea JoongAng Daily newspaper called on South Korea’s government to “fundamentally change our social environment and structure that discourages couples from having babies”. “The decreasing population leads to a critical lack of economic vitality and potential growth,” it said.


Not mentioned.. but here goes..
Radical (western) feminism + Radical feminists..
 
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Immigration is good and it's one area East Asian countries need to do better in order maximize growth. I don't mean let everyone in. But people with advanced degrees should be welcomed along with their families. Make it easy for them to get work visa and quick green card to nationalization.
Don't they already have a plethora of jobless people with college degrees?they seriously don't need immigrants unless they don't have any jobless cases.
overpopulation of non eastern faces in Eest are an eyesore and reminiscent of culture and demographic implotion.
USA is inherently occupied by European immigrants, ,it's not the same case for east asian nations. There's no point in a more thriving demography when it consists of middle Western,south asian,European. East is significantly different than the rest of the world,unlikely to buy the European warmongers bs,conjured to puff their humanitarian ego after replacing millions of their home with war invasion.
 
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Yup. Exactly what I am talking about.

China can never produce a Voltaire or a Dante. China can never have a suffragette movement or a Stonewall or a Martin Luther King. You guys are followers and don't have the capacity to rock the boat or think outside the box.
Doesn't china already has their own Lao Tzu & coufucius who shaped the eastern sphere?why would they need a voltaire or dante?
China doesn't indulge in systematic and institutionalized racist policies after hoarding in slaves for labor from Africa so why would they need a martin .L.King ,the fact that you are expecting china to suffer from the same WESTERN revolutions that were a byproduct of the flaws and dynamics of western society ,is just ridiculous.May be China never needed those western revolutions ,they don't suffer from same problems and they are different,ever thought that?

Lol nominal GDP per capita is pretty useless measure since 99% of the population engages in local markets day to day, not international markets in dollars.

PPP is a much better measure to guage citizenery's prosperity.

Besides, the crux of my post remains the same. If you want to see everything in nominal GDP terms...S. Korea transitioned into below replacement fertility at merely ~$2k per capita while Turkey did it at ~ 9k per capita. The proportional difference is even higher in favor of Turkey (altho, again, nominal per capita is bs and doesn't tell us anything)
Korea's...economic model was miraculous in terms of productivity growth but this model severally lacked balanced and holistic approach to long term societal development, as I have discussed in this post
PPP is driven by population,it's bs compared to nominal gdp or per capita income.

What is your so called "balanced and holistic approach" care to elaborate?
You mean europe's backwater TURKEY is an ideal state while gleaming South korea with hyundai-lg-samsung-kia and massive soft power-pop culture export isn't ?


That is true but your categorization is reductionist. Offcourse developed countries and countries with already large populations will have lower fertility. However, its about healthy balance of economic progress, social preservation, and healthy family demographics. This is where East Asia has lagged behind (in terms of balancing these aspects).

Essentially, East Asians (Koreans in particular) sacrificed their culture and traditions, got massively Westernized in terms of clothing, music, sexual relations, family-structure, social values etc, and are facing demographic disaster all because they developed extremely too rapidly when it came to economic production, without balancing social/family/demographic life. Muslim world didn't take this approach and even "West-aligned" and "liberal/secular" Muslim countries like Turkey (somewhat relevant comparison) kept their culture, traditions, family-structure, and social norms and didn't open themselves to total westernization of their land/cultures just for the sake of extremely rapid development like East Asians did. There was more balance between development priorities and maintaining one's traditional cultural, familial and social norms

Turns out, this is a better approach in hindsight.....not what S.Korea did. Let me reflect it via Turkey vs Korea quick comparison (since they both started with almost same base in 1960)

In early 1960's

Population:
Turkey: 27 million
S.Korea: 26 million

Median Age:
Turkey:19.4
Korea: 19

GDP per capita (PPP): Similar (both countries were extremely low-income)

Late 2010's

Population:

Turkey: 82 million with about 2 kids per woman on average (a bit unhealthy TFR vis-a-vis ideal)
S.Korea: 50 million with only about 1 kid per woman (extremely unhealthy TFR vis-a-vis ideal)

GDP per capita (PPP):
Turkey: ~$30k per person
S.Korea: ~$40k per person

Median age:
Turkey: 31 years
S. Korea: 42 years

One-Fact that elucidates my point further: South Korea fell below-replacement fertility rate at ~$5k to $6k GDP per capita (PPP). Turkey fell below-replacement fertility rate at ~$27k GDP per capita (PPP)

With a more balanced and more holistic development model: Korea could have been FAR more promising and powerful nation today with say 80 million Koreans, with a median age of 34 or 35, and a GDP per capita of $33k-$35k etc.

Developing too fast can have many long-lasting negative externalities for a nation. But I guess its much better to develop too fast than to develop too slow like is the case with us in the subcontinent


True. East Asia developed too rapidly for its own good in some ways. But my last two lines above summarize it lol

Please don't judge Korea against Turkey ,only backward Muslim nations give any fk about that nation.

Korean low fertility rate has nothing to do with WESTERN influence, the west has normal birth rate,they just don't breed like crazy like they use to in past .
Korean low fertility is directly linked to east Asian sensitivity and deep thoughtful culture.
Like
Many middle class -lower class families don't feel like giving birth unless they feel they can provide all the right amenities necessary for their offspring,and that their child wouldn't get socially ostracized due to her family background. They feel they would be doing their young ones wrong by bringing her into a world where she have to suffer.

And then career women feel ,their career would be destroyed with marriage ,this is a work culture problem.

If korea was inherently low in IQ ,insensitive,poor work ethic and carried less deep thoughts like in middle east ,Africa,India,turkey,etc they would have also bred like rats without any concerns for well being for their offspring.

Some laughable idiot Chinese trying to hide his countries glaring demographic problems: Do YoU MeAn WE TaKE immIGrAntS fRom AfRica lIke WesT? LoL

Immigrant from Africa in West:

View attachment 703382

:cheesy: :lol:

Yes, not all immigrants are Elon Musk. And yes, immigration does cause social friction in US etc. However, only an ignoramus will deny the huge competitive advantage immigration has provided for countries like the U.S.

Half of US' fortune 500 companies were started by immigrants or their first generation children. No Chinese company even comes close to the global recognition and prestige that American brands enjoy---whether its Coca Cola, Pepsi, McDonalds, Apple, Tesla, Google, Microsoft, Boeing...

Lets be real: Culturally European America dominates world culture and soft power in a way Chinese can't even dream of in next 100 years, even if they build up their military and surpass US in GDP figures. China was always a regional culture, not a global one.
Sir,meanwhile China has more firms in your fortune 500 than the US itself.

The only reason European-America dominates world culture and soft power as you claim,is because the Europe had colonized most of the world and forced their language and culture,that's how they made English the world medium and used their colonial wealth to funnel their culture contents for a century , unabated..

But other than English language ,Idk how west still dominates, even in food culture ,Chinese are probably more popular ,is there anyone that doesn't eat noodles or Chinese food?
The Hollywood & US pop culture success is due to the remnants of European colonial influence .
Can a america-phile or whatever the term is, can compete with the no of weebs or koreaboos ? if you get what I even mean...The concept of cool shifted from west -hollywood way before among the gen z.
Chinese soft power,it's not mainly based on pop culture,but that too is growing significantly each year day by day,china hasn't even completed development yet,you're just out of the loop in white culture worship.
 
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Doesn't china already has their own Lao Tzu & coufucius who shaped the eastern sphere?why would they need a voltaire or dante?
China doesn't indulge in systematic and institutionalized racist policies after hoarding in slaves for labor from Africa so why would they need a martin .L.King ,the fact that you are expecting china to suffer from the same WESTERN revolutions that were a byproduct of the flaws and dynamics of western society ,is just ridiculous.May be China never needed those western revolutions ,they don't suffer from same problems and they are different,ever thought that?
No society is static. You can't run a society forever under the diktats of Lao or Confucius. The West is ever evolving. Who was once considered a slave is now just as much American as a white Anglo Saxon. Western women went from not being able to vote to fighting for their rights to winning the right to vote.

That's not the case for China. There's a very strict standard for what is a Chinese and what are Chinese values. Not the recipe for a vibrant society. Remind me when China comes up with second wave feminism or a Stonewall movement on its own without coopting from the West. Pretty sure China will consider feminism and other isms evil and deviant besides what their state tells them is right.


Also comparing Voltaire to Lao is apples and oranges. Voltaire was a counterculture, a rebel. He challenged the established Church norms. Lao is the Chinese equivalent to a St Augustine or someone. Tell me a Chinese personality who challenged the values of Lao or Confucius for a better example.
 
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No society is static. You can't run a society forever under the diktats of Lao or Confucius. The West is ever evolving. Who was once considered a slave is now just as much American as a white Anglo Saxon. Western women went from not being able to vote to fighting for their rights to winning the right to vote.

That's not the case for China. There's a very strict standard for what is a Chinese and what are Chinese values. Not the recipe for a vibrant society. Remind me when China comes up with second wave feminism or a Stonewall movement on its own without coopting from the West. Pretty sure China will consider feminism and other isms evil and deviant besides what their state tells them is right.


Also comparing Voltaire to Lao is apples and oranges. Voltaire was a counterculture, a rebel. He challenged the established Church norms. Lao is the Chinese equivalent to a St Augustine or someone. Tell me a Chinese personality who challenged the values of Lao or Confucius for a better example.
China never had a church problem for them to need a counter-culture toward it,china is pretty much an atheist state.
There are plenty of eastern philosophers that have different views but I wouldn't like to compare them with
Confucius or Lao tzu .
If china operated on confucious values alone ,china wouldn't have any female leaders or female billionaire.
Feminism is a ridiculous western concept,china already had many female empowerment movement and national policies.
Women are way safer in china than any part of Europe,Americas,south asia,south east asia,Africa,that by itself is the greatest female empowerment in my opinion.Not saying things can't improve all over east.
 
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You cannot force people to 996 and ask them to procreate. GoS need think of holistic policies.

Singapore has become overly competitive mostly in the form of internal exhaustion, and not working in harmonious cooperation and not productive. Immigration policies are culprit.

99% of foreigners imported by GoS are replaceable by locals even in IT sectors. 1%, for example uni professors and chap in AStars have skillsets that is merits talents.

GoS basically deprive citizen a place to startoff.

Foreigners in Singapore quickly adapt to the pressure cooker environment by not precreating also.

Singapore do accept a large number of immigrants every year to stabilize our demographics as if we have 2.1 TFR in the long run. Even so, we're still aging.

View attachment 703078

View attachment 703079

Then again, we have a small, multicultural population and a relatively higher standard of living, so we're able to attract and retain enough young and talented from all over Asia. I doubt that's sustainable for much larger and homogeneous East Asian countries. Eg; Japan is projected to decline by 1 million people every year. Where are they going to find 1 million educated migrants every single year?
 
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China never had a church problem for them to need a counter-culture toward it,china is pretty much an atheist state.
There are plenty of eastern philosophers that have different views but I wouldn't like to compare them with
Confucius or Lao tzu .
If china operated on confucious values alone ,china wouldn't have any female leaders or female billionaire.
Feminism is a ridiculous western concept,china already had many female empowerment movement and national policies.
Women are way safer in china than any part of Europe,Americas,south asia,south east asia,Africa,that by itself is the greatest female empowerment in my opinion.Not saying things can't improve all over east
Yeah we get it. You worship China. Try to be a little more objective next time.
 
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