South Korea President warns North Korea against Provaction

[fly2012]

Any time a country allowed itself an alliance, not only does that alliance carries burdens but can also have unexpected consequences. The moment Ho dragged France and China into Viet Nam, the country as the next battleground was inevitable.

Right... Who did the poor Cambodia ally with to get bombed? Or is it "with me" or "against me"? I don't get it how Ho dragged France into Viet Nam, weren't French there much earlier? And where's China in the picture before the war?

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Based upon what criteria? He allowed the Chinese to run amok in North Viet Nam to implement the failed Chinese land reform program that led to famine in a land filled with rich soil and agricultural knowledge. France sought to legitimize her return to Viet Nam in any way possible and Ho made it easy for the French troops to land in North Viet Nam. After the division, North Viet Nam continued to be poverty ridden while South Viet Nam, no paragon of democratic virtues, reasonably prosper, as much as any country can under the circumstances. I look at South Korea and Japan and know that is what ALL of Viet Nam could have been. Ho's communists failed the Vietnamese people.


Why only the US? Why not the Soviets and the Chinese as well?


Ho 'swept' the other Viet nationalists away in their own blood using French arms and French troops. Thank you very much.


It is only those who found their 'Dear Leader' under moral indictments that these historical debates somehow turned silly.


While that is true, the lessons of the past should give the young pause on repeating the mistakes of the past. Unfortunately, the majority of the Viets on this board seems to be intent on repeating those mistakes.


What happened to personal responsibility? Insurance? A free market system and some measure of personal responsibility can take care of that. A planned economic system? Has that worked anywhere? And please do not bring up the current China.


In the quest to secure all those things you listed as how communists can teach democrats, Stalin-ism and Mao-ism and the other communist based '-isms' ended up bloody and failed experiments. Still want to try it again? But at least this is how you young communists thinks today: Since the large countries are too entrenched in their democratic/capitalist systems, start with the small countries like Viet Nam or Laos and re-try those failed experiments.

Communism is not dead. Never was. It is worse than a vampire. At least with a vampire we know a wooden stake can kill it. Communism is very much like the Hydra of Greek mythology with its many heads living in every new generation, ready to inflict itself upon the world over and over. The Viets here are examples of that.

In China, the land reforms were spectacularly successful.

Average lifespan increases are correlated with land redistribution in both mainland China under the CPC and in Taiwan under the KMT. On the mainland, the KMT failed to enact any form of land redistribution even during the 20's, which was a time of relative peace. The end result was an average lifespan of 36 years, lower than sub-Saharan Africa, during the 1912-1949 ROC era, but with an average lifespan nearly doubling to 64 years in the 70's.

There's no reason why Vietnam would be different.

On the other hand, lack of land reform is also correlated with entrenched poverty like in Nicaragua and Pakistan.

If you think about it, the US also engaged in land redistribution: the civil war redistributed the land of the slave owning plantations to small farmers, which set the stage for industrial growth. There can never be industrial development without land redistribution.

 

[gambit]

Right... Who did the poor Cambodia ally with to get bombed? Or is it "with me" or "against me"?

Another one that needed education...If you are referring to the bombing of Cambodia by the US...

International Humanitarian Law - Hague Convention V 1907

CHAPTER I

THE RIGHTS AND DUTIES OF NEUTRAL POWERS

Article 1. The territory of neutral Powers is inviolable.

Art. 2. Belligerents are forbidden to move troops or convoys of either munitions of war or supplies across the territory of a neutral Power.

Art. 3. Belligerents are likewise forbidden to:
(a) Erect on the territory of a neutral Power a wireless telegraphy station or other apparatus forthe purpose of communicating with belligerent forces on land or sea;
(b) Use any installation of this kind established by them before the war on the territory of a neutral Power for purely military purposes, and which has not been opened for the service of public messages.

Art. 4. Corps of combatants cannot be formed nor recruiting agencies opened on the territory of a neutral Power to assist the belligerents.

Art. 5. A neutral Power must not allow any of the acts referred to in Articles 2 to 4 to occur on its territory. It is not called upon to punish acts in violation of its neutrality unless the said acts have been committed on its own territory.

Article 1 is inviolable ONLY IF articles 2 through 5 are enforced. What right did North Viet Nam had in violating Cambodia's sovereignty in creating the Ho Chi Minh Trail? No right at all. So if a country is either unwilling or incompetent to prevent articles 2 through 5 from occurring on its soil, it is as if that country has allied itself to one interested party in a conflict. By violating Cambodia's sovereignty, North Viet Nam dragged Cambodia into the war.

I don't get it how Ho dragged France into Viet Nam, weren't French there much earlier? And where's China in the picture before the war?

Ho invited France back into North Viet Nam via the Ho-Sainteny Agreement of March 1946. Did you even followed the discussion?

---------- Post added at 03:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:04 AM ----------

In China, the land reforms were spectacularly successful.

Average lifespan increases are correlated with land redistribution in both mainland China under the CPC and in Taiwan under the KMT. On the mainland, the KMT failed to enact any form of land redistribution even during the 20's, which was a time of relative peace. The end result was an average lifespan of 36 years, lower than sub-Saharan Africa, during the 1912-1949 ROC era, but with an average lifespan nearly doubling to 64 years in the 70's.

There's no reason why Vietnam would be different.

On the other hand, lack of land reform is also correlated with entrenched poverty like in Nicaragua and Pakistan.

If you think about it, the US also engaged in land redistribution: the civil war redistributed the land of the slave owning plantations to small farmers, which set the stage for industrial growth. There can never be industrial development without land redistribution.

Then explain the famine in both China and North Viet Nam. Land reform programs must be accompanied by economic policies. Your comparison is invalid in that the US post Civil War was essentially a capitalist society.

 

[NiceGuy]

Ho invited France back into North Viet Nam via the Ho-Sainteny Agreement of March 1946. Did you even followed the discussion?

How about France troops in the South "invited" by British to enslave your family ??

 

[Obambam]

What proves dude ?? British helped France to return to the South VN, and Ho govt. didn't have a single tank or air craft to stop it, that's history


in 1946, VN was not the third most powerful military on Earth that could drive out 600,000 PLA troops in few weeks like in 1979 , dude

Neither are you today. Hence the Philippines took your fishermen and shot two for invading their west sea

 

[Star√ation]

Right... Who did the poor Cambodia ally with to get bombed? Or is it "with me" or "against me"? I don't get it how Ho dragged France into Viet Nam, weren't French there much earlier? And where's China in the picture before the war?

After Japanese surrendered in WWII, followed the Ally agreement, British troops entered South Vietnam and Chinese troops (Chang Kai Shek) entered the North to disarm Japanese troops still stationed in Vietnam.
Then the British allowed French army take control of South Vietnam. After building up a puppet government in the South, the French marched toward the North.
Ho's government in Hanoi without money, preservation, limited weapons (mostly captured from the French and the Japanese), virtually are all peasant-soldiers not a single professional one had to risk being crushed by the mighty French army and hundred of thousands of Chang Kai Shek's troops.
The condition of Ho's government at that time was like a small boat in the middle of a stormy sea. The pro-France and pro-China traitors were eager to take control of Vietnam from Ho's gov.
In that crucial moment, Ho decided to have a temporary ceasefire with the French, it helped him buy more time to consolidate his power base, eliminated all the traitors, waited the Chinese to retreat and prepared for a war with the French.
After all, the battle of Dien Bien Phu and the withdrawal of French were a huge success for Vietnam and for Ho in particular.
That's it. Ho was more than a perfect leader in the pre-1954 era.

 

[gambit]

After Japanese surrendered in WWII, followed the Ally agreement, British troops entered South Vietnam and Chinese troops (Chang Kai Shek) entered the North to disarm Japanese troops still stationed in Vietnam.
Then the British allowed French army take control of South Vietnam. After building up a puppet government in the South, the French marched toward the North.
Ho's government in Hanoi without money, preservation, limited weapons (mostly captured from the French and the Japanese), virtually are all peasant-soldiers not a single professional one had to risk being crushed by the mighty French army and hundred of thousands of Chang Kai Shek's troops.
The condition of Ho's government at that time was like a small boat in the middle of a stormy sea. The pro-France and pro-China traitors were eager to take control of Vietnam from Ho's gov.
In that crucial moment, Ho decided to have a temporary ceasefire with the French, it helped him buy more time to consolidate his power base, eliminated all the traitors, waited the Chinese to retreat and prepared for a war with the French.
After all, the battle of Dien Bien Phu and the withdrawal of French were a huge success for Vietnam and for Ho in particular.
That's it. Ho was more than a perfect leader in the pre-1954 era.

The rhetorical convenience and deception here is to simply label anyone who opposes the Viet Minh as 'traitors', no matter how honorable their intentions may be. Odd that why did Ho not executed Diem when Diem was in Ho's prison.

 

[NiceGuy]

Neither are you today. Hence the Philippines took your fishermen and shot two for invading their west sea

1. They released our fishermen already.

2. Prove that those robbers are Philippine forces first

A Philippine Navy officer has already denied that military personnel were involved.

"We definitely would not open fire. Rules of engagement say you do not use gunfire except in self-defense," said Commodore Mike Rodriguez.

According to GMA News, Filipino pirates have occasionally worn military uniforms or camouflage in their criminal activities.

Philippines probing shooting accusations by Vietnamese fishermen: report Two Vietnamese fishermen shot off East Sea - Related news - 5/23/2011 - Báo Thanh Niên English

 

[NiceGuy]

The rhetorical convenience and deception here is to simply label anyone who opposes the Viet Minh as 'traitors', no matter how honorable their intentions may be. Odd that why did Ho not executed Diem when Diem was in Ho's prison.

Ngo Dinh Diem ( the first president of S.VN) was arrested bcz his brother Ngo DInh Khoi was agaisnt VietMinh when they forced Bao Dai King to cede his power to People. Ngo DInh Khoi was executed , but Ngo Dinh Diem was inocient and was released after that.

 

[Star√ation]

Based upon what criteria? He allowed the Chinese to run amok in North Viet Nam to implement the failed Chinese land reform program that led to famine in a land filled with rich soil and agricultural knowledge.

Didn't I say Ho did his job excellently only before 1954?
Land reform was post-1954. At least in 1957, Ho dared to admit that he was false, unlike Mao.
I don't see any matter with the land reform, anyone would have some mistake in his life.
But the failure of unable to drag Vietnam out of the wannabe 20-years was un-tolerable.

Why only the US? Why not the Soviets and the Chinese as well?

Did the Vietnamese fight with the Chinese or the Soviets?

Ho 'swept' the other Viet nationalists away in their own blood using French arms and French troops. Thank you very much.

Better than let the French army swept away all the Vietnamese people out off Vietnam. Thank you very much.
Anyway, there was nothing strange about Vietnamese shed our own blood. It happened all the time in our history in those Ly, Tran, Le dynasties...

In the quest to secure all those things you listed as how communists can teach democrats, Stalin-ism and Mao-ism and the other communist based '-isms' ended up bloody and failed experiments. Still want to try it again? But at least this is how you young communists thinks today: Since the large countries are too entrenched in their democratic/capitalist systems, start with the small countries like Viet Nam or Laos and re-try those failed experiments.

Communism is not dead. Never was. It is worse than a vampire. At least with a vampire we know a wooden stake can kill it. Communism is very much like the Hydra of Greek mythology with its many heads living in every new generation, ready to inflict itself upon the world over and over. The Viets here are examples of that.

With such an extreme vision, I find it hard for me to continue the debate.
Anyway, I come all the way here not to protect communism but to tell that Communism in certain time was a failed experiment, but thanks to communism the world could have whole a bulk of news ideas, news values...
Both communism and capitalism are pretty old already. Basically, in East Asia today, we don't talk about communism, capitalism or democracy anymore. It's nationalism, pragmatism that is the motivation drives all East Asian states.
It's not called communist China, communist Vietnam anymore.
Now they are called China Corp, Korea Corp, Japan Corp, Vietnam Corp.

 

[NiceGuy]

But the failure of unable to drag Vietnam out of the wannabe 20-years was un-tolerable.

Then how to avoid the war when President Kenedy who wanna withdraw US troop from VietNam and President Ngo Dinh Diệm who refused US troops stationed to S.VN got killed ??

According to Kenneth O’Donnell, President Kennedy had himself (like Galbraith) abandoned hopes for a military solution as early as the spring of 1963. O’Donnell allegedly heard from Kennedy then “that he had made up his mind that after his re-election he would take the risk of unpopularity and make a complete withdrawal of American forces from Vietnam…in 1965.”[65] Whether the President had so unreservedly and so early adopted the Galbraith perspective is debatable; there is, however, no questioning that after the Buddhist crisis in August the prospect of accelerated or total withdrawal was openly contemplated by members of the bureaucracy’s “political” faction, including the President’s brother.

http://www.history-matters.com/essays/vietnam/KennedyVietnam1971/KennedyVietnam1971.htm

 

[Star√ation]

The rhetorical convenience and deception here is to simply label anyone who opposes the Viet Minh as 'traitors', no matter how honorable their intentions may be. Odd that why did Ho not executed Diem when Diem was in Ho's prison.

Viet Minh was a league of people who represented the Vietnamese people to fight for Vietnam independence.
Any one who are against Viet Minh were against the Vietnamese people?
In time of war it could be brutal, cruel, inhumanity since we just wouldn't have time to bring the court, invite the lawyer for every single one.

 

[Star√ation]

Then how to avoid the war when President Kenedy who wanna withdraw US troop from VietNam and President Ngo Dinh Diệm who refused US troops stationed to S.VN got killed ??

The cause of the war had been laid out in the 1954 Geneva agreement.
We have the term "fall asleep on top of the victory" in Vietnamese you know?

 

[gambit]

Viet Minh was a league of people who represented the Vietnamese people to fight for Vietnam independence.
Any one who are against Viet Minh were against the Vietnamese people?
In time of war it could be brutal, cruel, inhumanity since we just wouldn't have time to bring the court, invite the lawyer for every single one.

The Viet Minh was a minority among other minority nationalist groups. Some coherent, some not. But not even the French educated and Catholic Diem was favoring a French return to rule Viet Nam. This lead to the crucial question of why did Ho not executed Diem when Diem was in Ho's prison and prior to that, Diem was a known anti-communist province governor who routed the communists out of his area?

 

[Star√ation]

The Viet Minh was a minority among other minority nationalist groups. Some coherent, some not. But not even the French educated and Catholic Diem was favoring a French return to rule Viet Nam. This lead to the crucial question of why did Ho not executed Diem when Diem was in Ho's prison and prior to that, Diem was a known anti-communist province governor who routed the communists out of his area?

Do you know the Vietnamese term "Viet Minh" stand for what? Viet Minh was not a minority group, Viet Minh was a group of all people who fight for Vietnam. Only Ho's communist party was a part of Viet Minh, nationalists and elite class were part of Viet Minh as well.

Of course Diem was a traditional nationalist and a diehard Catholic, he just wanted so say bye bye to the French and use the American as a tool to install him to the position of a president.

Who know what the hell was going on with Diem. In the struggle of Han-Chu of China, Liu Bang was enemy of XiangYu, Xiangyu invited LiuBang to the Hongmenyan (a party). Why didn't Xiang just execute Liu right in the party, Xiang let Liu alive then only just to loose his own life to Liu. Who know what the hell was going on, who know what the hell would have happened?