Should India spend Rs 1000cr on a single fighter jet?

[SRP]

yeah

Can you provide me the source?

 

[Last Samuri]

Very costly plane infact too expensive.

Too late should acquire UAE mirages and Qatar mirages. For fraction of the cost. For stop gap til 2020.

Get pak fa and fgfa in next decade.

Concentrate on lca tejas upgrade mki to super mki

 

[halupridol]

Very costly plane infact too expensive.

Too late should acquire UAE mirages and Qatar mirages. For fraction of the cost. For stop gap til 2020.

Get pak fa and fgfa in next decade.

Concentrate on lca tejas upgrade mki to super mki

i will agree completely with ur view.....but i thought this deal...mmrca...had tot included wid it?
may b some senior members might know?

 

[OrionHunter]

I don't think the author of this blog knows a $hit about MMRCA.

Right! Rs 1000 crores a piece? This guy has lost his marbles!

The unit cost of Rafale is Rs 600-650 crores. The remainder is for infrastructure, spares and life cycle maintenance costs which can vary. The latter issue is where we've hit a roadblock which is causing delay in signing the deal as well as Dassault's doubts on HAL's ability to manufacture the sophisticated aircraft in its facilities.

And he says Rafale is a 4th gen fighter?? This classification for fighter aircraft is purely an American invention. They define a 4.5 generation fighter aircraft as fourth generation jet fighters that have been upgraded with AESA radar, high capacity data-link, enhanced avionics, and the ability to deploy current and reasonably foreseeable advanced armaments.

Therefore the Rafale having all the above, is a 4.5 gen fighter aircraft and not 4th gen! Period!

 

[MohitV]

Can you provide me the source?

Russia-China Su-35 Fighter Talks Frozen | World | RIA Novosti

 

[liall]

25 Billion $ =

10-12 Rovers like Curiosity landed to Mars or
Man mission to moon 5 times over or
Underground rail service like Delhi metro in many cities or
HSR line connecting Mumbai - Ahmedebad & Mumbai to Delhi or
25 million families with 1000$ ( cost to make 1 decent toilet) i.e 25 million families with toilets or
120 of these toys which will get outdated in a couple of decades.

Choice is ours. If I was PM I would spend the money on Making High speed rail lines between major cities. Not like if we ever get in war with China we would have any chances with these planes or with Pakistan we wouldn't even need them.

 

[MohitV]

will both MMRCA and PAKFA have tot agreements with the deal ??

25 Billion $ =

10-12 Rovers like Curiosity landed to Mars or
Man mission to moon 5 times over or
Underground rail service like Delhi metro in many cities or
HSR line connecting Mumbai - Ahmedebad & Mumbai to Delhi or
25 million families with 1000$ ( cost to make 1 decent toilet) i.e 25 million families with toilets or
120 of these toys which will get outdated in a couple of decades.

Choice is ours. If I was PM I would spend the money on Making High speed rail lines between major cities. Not like if we ever get in war with China we would have any chances with these planes or with Pakistan we wouldn't even need them.

when we are surrounded by enemies from all the sides...it becomes a necessary evil

 

[SRP]

Russia-China Su-35 Fighter Talks Frozen | World | RIA Novosti

Su35 is not Super Sukhoi. Last time i heard they were in talk about buying some 1-2 squadrons. But Russia did not agree to sell that much and they know after buying few planes they will make cheap copies out of it. So thats why that was not materialized.

 

[illuminatidinesh]

Very costly plane infact too expensive.
Too late should acquire UAE mirages and Qatar mirages. For fraction of the cost. For stop gap til 2020.
Get pak fa and fgfa in next decade.
Concentrate on lca tejas upgrade mki to super mki

Mirages? for what? U do remember that both MMRCA and FGFA are going to be inducted at the same time frame, obviously they both ave different role.

 

[MohitV]

Su35 is not Super Sukhoi. Last time i heard they were in talk about buying some 1-2 squadrons. But Russia did not agree to sell that much and they know after buying few planes they will make cheap copies out of it. So thats why that was not materialized.

my bad...su35...not super sukhois

 

[drunken-monke]

Bullcrap... 1000 crores a piece means more than 150 millions... That cant be... Even the flyaway cost of F22 is 150 million...

 

[AnnoyingOrange]

please explain why shouldnt we spending this much money for development of AMCA?

AMCA development is a good 10 Years project.. and honestly Indian Capabilities are not even close to what it takes to develop a 5th gen fighter plane.

1000 Carore could feed , people for decades

Just imagine if Indian Government distributed 20 lakh to people for food and shelter , they can buy home , build family get food and live happily ...buy indian goods with money , buy real estate etc move economy


What will that Jet do? Nothing, a pilot with Tom Cruise hair cut will fly it around
few times , do some circles and maneuvers and thats it it will get parked in airport

10,000,000,000 = That is ALOT of zeros in that figure ...

Look at Indian budget my friend... a huge chunk is also dedicated to social welfare... we are well within our means... and well within our rights to shore up our defenses.

 

[SrNair]

Should India spend Rs 1000cr on a single fighter jet?

​

Yep, you read that right. India is close to signing a $20-25 billion deal to acquire 126 new fighter jets. That's around Rs 900-1000 crore apiece for a 4th generation jet, when the world is moving on to 5th generation stealth jets and unmanned drones. So how did we get here?

A modern multirole fighter jet is expected to perform two primary functions: air-to-air combat, and air-to-ground strike. The former consists of attacking enemy aircraft and defending your own airspace. The latter consists of attacking enemy air defenses, and supporting your own ground forces in battle. The Indian Air Force (IAF) has generally been good at air-to-air, but the experience at Kargil revealed some serious shortcomings in its air-to-ground effort. Only the Mirage 2000, a French multirole aircraft, was able to perform well after some urgent modifications were carried out with Israeli help.

It thus seemed like a good idea to purchase more Mirage aircraft expeditiously and upgrade the ones already in service. That was in 1999. Today, in 2014, the Mirage is out of production, and after a competitive but sluggish shortlisting process, India is on the verge of signing a deal to acquire its successor, the Dassault Rafale. Along with the Eurofighter Typhoon, it was judged to be the most capable of the six contenders in the tender, and happened to be the cheaper of the two finalists (which happened to be the two most expensive aircraft in the competition).

However, in the meantime, both the IAF, and the threats it faces, have evolved. India's spearhead today is the excellent Sukhoi Su-30MKI - which can fly faster, farther, carry a larger payload (of weapons and fuel), and has a more powerful radar than the Rafale (though both are expected to upgrade to newer AESA units in due course). And very recently, India's own Light Combat Aircraft, the Tejas, has displayed acceptable performance. Between them, the Su-30 and Tejas could cover many of the missions that the Rafale is meant to undertake.

But the real problem is cost. One Rafale costs more than two Sukhois, or more than five Tejas jets. In fact total development costs of the Tejas are just $1.5 billion, or about the same as 9 Rafales! Capability wise, the Rafale is a little worse than the Sukhoi in air-to-air combat and a little better than it in air-to-ground strike roles. In terms of ownership costs, traditionally a problem with Russian products, the Rafale is hardly better. By some estimates, it costs around Rs 10 lac ($16000) per flight hour. The average Indian fighter pilot flies 200-250 hours in a year, which is necessary for training etc. That's Rs 20 crore per Rafale pilot per year, at the very least. To put that in perspective, that's what Kejriwal spent to win Delhi!

And going by previous experience with ToT arrangements, rarely is the outcome consistent with the letter and intent of the agreed deal. At best, India will be able to produce some parts and spares of the Rafale independently (this will likely exclude complex engine and radar assemblies), but we will not learn how to design these from scratch.

It is thus very unfortunate that an urgent and legitimate need for a good strike aircraft, addressed through a competitive and transparent tender process, has resulted in a situation where the IAF will pay 5th gen money for a 4th gen platform, and receive the last of these aircraft at a time when they are about to be obsolescent. Don't get me wrong, the Rafale is a good jet, and it beat the others in the contest fair and square. The real issue is the acquisition timeline that has dragged on for over 13 years. What made sense in 1999 just doesn't make sense in 2014. The technology of war evolves fast. Either the tender should have been modified to include newer contenders, or it should have been framed such that aircraft costs played a more meaningful role in the end result. What we've done is akin to taking our own sweet time (over a decade!) and picking a Mercedes and an Audi from a lineup that includes a Maruti and a Hyundai, and then coyly choosing the cheaper of the two. We'd still be stuck with an expensive, if lovely, car.

For an ambitious and developing India, there's better ways to spend one lakh twenty thousand crore rupees (or $20 billion). High-speed rail, or world-class highways could be one option. Buying out a foreign aerospace company (Dassault's market cap today is $15 billion), or at the very least recruiting the same scientists, engineers and designers that may be laid off if we don't splurge on foreign weapons (from BAE, EADS, Dassault etc), and putting them to work on indigenous projects, could be another.

With India tumbling to sub 5% growth, and with dwindling foreign reserves that translate to an export cover of barely 8 months, a fancy new jet is hardly the need of the hour.

Source:- Should India spend Rs 1000cr on a single fighter jet? by Yankee Doodle : Sohel Sanghani's blog-The Times Of India

Very Nice .Seem this guy know very well than intelligent and patriotic IAF personnel and one of best IAS work for this deal.
This guy even dont know what is MMRCA deal? and what is real capability of Dassault Rafale?

First of all this smart guy told about SU-30MKI and LCA.SU-30mki can do A2G operation.But our enemies can detect these fighters like a glowing trees in radar before they leave our airspace.
These fighters are huge and high RCS.So one can assume the fate of these fighters
when it used for deep strike missions in behind enemy lines.Only need SAM missiles.
Now talk about LCA tejas .This guy dont know the class of fighters.A light class jet like LCA cant do anything about bombing missions behind the enemy lines.
MMRCA deal is for sort out bombing mission difficulties and acquiring a medium class fighter.
Now India used Mig -27 and Jagaur for bombing missions .But these fighters need equal number of
mig-29 or Su-30 support for avoid the attack of enemies A2A fighter jets.Otherwise these Mig27 and Jaguar are sitting ducks.
Talk about 5th generation aircraft.price tag of F-22 is more 200 million and F-35 is more than 150 million.F-22 will not get us and we opt FGFA over F-35.FGFA is still not complete and we only get a decent squadron of that in 2030 and it may expensive than Rafale.
only countries now use 5th generation is US .Our only neighbour that may get 5th gen is China ,but they also get a mature aircraft in the time frame of 2025-2030.
Fighter aircraft that more than RCS of rafale is EFT,F-35,F-22.
it is 4.5 gen aircraft and these aircraft has a future more than 30 year .5th gen is practical to all our adversaries only after 2030.

I think that France will never do that.....
So is beter to focus on spending this money on AMCA......


Please explain why?

HA ha AMCA whole the program cost of F-35 is 1.45trillion$ and for us 5th gen we need minimum
15billion$ and we cant make sure that will be a success and all over our aerospace industry is still in
less mature stage.there is along way between LCA ,Hal rudra and powerful twin engine 5th gen fighter.
Off set obligation of these deal is 50% and french need to spend 50% of deal in India.That alone give us enough experience.

 

[Manvantaratruti]

Finally one sensible article.

It is hilarious to think that every single Indian would be paying France 1 Lakh 20 Thousand Rupees from our own pockent to defend us.

This means every single farmer who commits suicide because he cannot repay a loan of 60,000 Rs will now pay France / Dasault 1,20,000 Rs to buy an aircraft that may never be used in war. LOL.

No wonder the congress wants to sign the deal before the next govt. comes to power.

Right! Rs 1000 crores a piece? This guy has lost his marbles!

The unit cost of Rafale is Rs 600-650 crores. The remainder is for infrastructure, spares and life cycle maintenance costs which can vary. The latter issue is where we've hit a roadblock which is causing delay in signing the deal as well as Dassault's doubts on HAL's ability to manufacture the sophisticated aircraft in its facilities.

And he says Rafale is a 4th gen fighter?? This classification for fighter aircraft is purely an American invention. They define a 4.5 generation fighter aircraft as fourth generation jet fighters that have been upgraded with AESA radar, high capacity data-link, enhanced avionics, and the ability to deploy current and reasonably foreseeable advanced armaments.

Therefore the Rafale having all the above, is a 4.5 gen fighter aircraft and not 4th gen! Period!

It would in all probability be more than 1000 crore a piece.

How does it matter how the money is going to be spent ? 95% of this money will go to France. LOL.

You can be 100% sure no significant technology is EVER going to be transferred

We can spend 1 billion $ to upgrade the Su 30 MKI to have better ground strike ability and add 100 more of this aircraft for which we have FULL ToT. Use the extra saved money to add more LCA and used the rest of the money to develop a single engine AMCA based on the engine used for PAKFA.

 

[rockstarIN]

Yaar. Think about this. (I am using simple example)

If you are Apple CEO

And someone from India comes to you and says.

Hey Apple CEO,

I want to buy million IPhone 4s (one step older model)

if you allow me to copy IPhone's sensitive tech.

then

What do you think that you the Apple CEO will tell the Indian buyer?

A) Yes Indian buyer. Here. Take our sensitive tech
B) Foged-a-bout it (like the mafia guy would say)


Is it A

Is B

Or ?

If I'm the only willing buyer out the market there apart from Apple employees, then?