Sensitive Data of Indian Navy’s Scorpene Class Submarines Leaked

[NKVD]

Can you change the engine to change noise profile?
Can you change the hull to alter noise reduction measures?

What Hull has to do With Propeller Noise
Seriously

 

[jha]

The trail is longer surely.. but its a target for both India and australia.. tbh barracuda shares limited similarity to scorpenes.. so Australia is not affected much other than loss of reputation and credibility of DCNS
India suffers much more owing to the second assembly line and future cooperation which will now be played by yellow journalism articles.. The case of Dassault being costly and DCNS being a source of leak will be played so much that finally opposition and the whole masses will say maintain freeze over underwater fleet expansion.

In one shot the end loser is whom - Australia no contract signed till date
or India where everything from one line to second for parallely 5 sub production to all cooperation everything goes up the smoke..

connect the dots you will see the big picture.. Finally a new war is now initiated against India in a big way...

This will cost some deep political capital from Modi to go ahead with more Scorpenes. MDL has expanded facility and within months we have this news report on a leak which happened 5 years ago. Fishy. Very Fishy.

 

[NKVD]

Can you remove 100s of sensors and replace them with alternatives as their profiles are out meaning enemy can take counter measures?

We are not talking about receiving but transmission.

When one knows the noise frequency details at various depths - then one doesn't need to build a new sub. All enemy has to do is to code the information in the mission computer or at max add a few sensors to cover left out frequencies and voila! you are good to go.. To counter it is not so easy and would require expensive overhaul of major emission and emission mitigation systems

Let's take the best case scenario - instead of complete profile of. waveforms what they have is just a range. Now range cannot be too broad as then it would be useless for caliberation. This still makes the job of enemy much easier. Instead scanning the complete spectrum they just have to focus on a narrow range of frequencies.

Pls understand that frequency profiles are DNA finger prints. Unique - you can't confuse it with something else. You can change the noise profiles at different depths sure but for a given depth there is only so much you can do. So the calibration while important at receiver end is not so significant at transmission end. TLDR we are stuck..

Sub to sub battles is not a long chess game - it is high noon style shoot-out. Detect - Shoot - Scoot.

That is why the saying - run silent, run deep.

All your Assumptions made on just one Report Leaked in Media That to not clear what data is Leaked

First Let the Investigation complete

 

[PARIKRAMA]

I am guessing that the newspaper would face legal action if they publish documents marked "confidential".

Its reasonable to assume that such documents were not published, but very much in possession with the Newspaper as they have suggested.

possible but then its gonna be a bigger scandal for even aussie newspaper.. the trail and ppl form 2011 time onwards will see many other ppl get entangled..

I wont lie, morning the friend in Indian Navy whom i talked said his first hand feeling after coming to know yesterday afternoon about this was that this information might have leaked to competition during the 2011-2013 period. To showcase what is there as part of support package and procedures and basic detailing required in documentation and training..

Surely there might be more bcz if its a navy officer from any side (India or France) the access to other "restricted" set is of course possible.

 

[Spectre]

What Hull has to do With Propeller Noise
Seriously

First answer

Do you want scientific studies on scattering effect of hull on the non cavitation noise of propeller running in wake of submarine?

Then again, propellers are not the only emission platforms, there are others as Sven or @Olaf One-Brow said.

All your Assumptions made on just one Report Leaked in Media That to not clear what data is Leaked

First Let the Investigation complete

Perhaps so.. but then again information was admittedly privileged. Information is marked privileged or classified for a reason or there would be no leak.

Only thing which is left to decide or investigate is how bad are we hurt?

Is it an amputation or organ failure..

 

[Nilgiri]

We are not talking about receiving but transmission.

When one knows the noise frequency details at various depths - then one doesn't need to build a new sub. All enemy has to do is to code the information in the mission computer or at max add a few sensors to cover left out frequencies and voila! you are good to go.. To counter it is not so easy and would require expensive overhaul of major emission and emission mitigation systems

Let's take the best case scenario - instead of complete profile of. waveforms what they have is just a range. Now range cannot be too broad as then it would be useless for caliberation. This still makes the job of enemy much easier. Instead scanning the complete spectrum they just have to focus on a narrow range of frequencies.

Pls understand that frequency profiles are DNA finger prints. Unique - you can't confuse it with something else. You can change the noise profiles at different depths sure but for a given depth there is only so much you can do. So the calibration while important at receiver end is not so significant at transmission end. TLDR we are stuck..

Sub to sub battles is not a long chess game - it is high noon style shoot-out. Detect - Shoot - Scoot.

That is why the saying - run silent, run deep.

Look unless you have seen the exact details of the documents you can't make this judgement call with just words in the media.

It looks like PARIKRAMA has already posted what could be what is being talked about here....so lets wait and see.

 

[Arsalan]

Merge this with:
https://defence.pk/threads/sensitive-data-of-indian-navy’s-scorpene-class-submarines-leaked.445677/

@WAJsal @Slav Defence

 

[Shankranthi]

What Hull has to do With Propeller Noise
Seriously

Hulls are required to have acoustic retardation properties. Some sections are more padded for noise than others. Not all acoustic noise comes from propellers.

 

[NKVD]

First answer

Do you want scientific studies on scattering effect of hull on the non cavitation noise of propeller running in wake of submarine?

Then again, propellers are not the only emission platforms, there are others as Sven or @Olaf One-Brow said.

I Don't Want Any thing i Know most of It And As We Know Such details are never Transferred By OEM to any Clients And These are Industrial Secrets which are Never documented but Only Known to Research Scientist

I doubt DNCs ever Made such Information public or even documented

Hulls are required to have acoustic retardation properties. Some sections are more padded for noise than others. Not all acoustic noise comes from propellers.

How this Information Is transferred by OEM to India Why Will they share Industrial secret To India Except Log Manuals or user guide

 

[Spectre]

I Don't Want Any thing i Know most of It And Partly Know Such details are never Transferred By OEM to any And These Industrial Secrets which are Never documented but Only Known to Rearch Scientist

I doubt DNCs ever Made such Information public

Then why did you suggest hull did not have any impact on noise emissions? Your post was kinda saying I dont know my shit.

 

[Shankranthi]

possible but then its gonna be a bigger scandal for even aussie newspaper.. the trail and ppl form 2011 time onwards will see many other ppl get entangled..

I wont lie, morning the friend in Indian Navy whom i talked said his first hand feeling after coming to know yesterday afternoon about this was that this information might have leaked to competition during the 2011-2013 period. To showcase what is there as part of support package and procedures and basic detailing required in documentation and training..

Surely there might be more bcz if its a navy officer from any side (India or France) the access to other "restricted" set is of course possible.

Why would the newspaper get entangled in the scandal ? they did their job by exposing the leak and at the same time have published that not all data was printed for security concerns.

They were more responsible than DCNS. (imagine that)

Its clear that this leak took place much earlier and only NOW found its way to Australian newspaper after having covered half the globe.

The solution would be to go for an upgrade in the next series of submarines to change its characteristics. That is the minefield IN and MOD have to negotiate preferable with little help from DCNS.

Not to mention withholding funds to DCNS and freezing those bank guarantees.

 

[Arsalan]

It is of the type that needs a firing squad---but what you make out of it is a different story---.
A fake information may also be leaked out.

It can and will be verified pretty quickly sir. Nations operating in the same area will check for the given signs and see if it was true or fake so purposely releasing a fake do not makes much sense.

Does not matter. If a newspaper has this data, be sure that this data has gone through more hand than a dollar an hour wh0re.

What I am interested in is how sensitive is this data. Is it something which could be found in public literature, if you dig hard enough; or is it something that would get you executed for treason, if leaked.

If it do includes the radar signature, noise levels it makes at different speeds, propeller noise and such stuff then these are the things enemy spend years to gather in detail by process called shadowing and via intelligence gathering. So it is pretty serious if the report is true.

 

[Shankranthi]

How this Information Is transferred by OEM to India Why Will they share Industrial secret To India Except Log Manuals or user guide

Its called Vendor development. ToT and licensing.

 

[NKVD]

Then why did you suggest hull did not have any impact on noise emissions? Your post was kinda saying I dont know my shit.

Much Like you who change Goal Posts Hull is not Primary Source of Noise it Physical expect
The propeller resonates when turning, and cavitation (noise generated by bubbles collapsing) can develop. Additionally, the turbulent flow of water around the ship can excite the hull itself. Each type of noise has a unique pattern, which can differ with speed, depth, and water conditions. Quieting technologies continue to improve and are increasingly available to backfit older submarines. Hull coatings, improved propeller design, and quieted propulsion plant equipment reduce the submarine's overall noise levels, especially at high speeds.



So each of these Measures Can be corrected So Every Subs has different Noise Pattern to other subs Like Harley davidson bike Engines

you Telling me that Leaked Documents some how done Deja vu or foresighted unconstructed subs details

If it do includes the radar signature, noise levels it makes at different speeds, propeller noise and such stuff then these are the things enemy spend years to gather in detail by process called shadowing and via intelligence gathering. So it is pretty serious if the report is true.

But how Each Engine has different parameters . Each type of noise has a unique pattern which can differ with speed, depth, and water conditions

Much these Subs are not even constructed yeat except one

 

[Spectre]

Much Like you who change Goal Posts Hull is not Primary Source of Noise it Physical expect
The propeller resonates when turning, and cavitation (noise generated by bubbles collapsing) can develop. Additionally, the turbulent flow of water around the ship can excite the hull itself. Each type of noise has a unique pattern, which can differ with speed, depth, and water conditions. Quieting technologies continue to improve and are increasingly available to backfit older submarines. Hull coatings, improved propeller design, and quieted propulsion plant equipment reduce the submarine's overall noise levels, especially at high speeds.



So each of these Measures Can be corrected So Every Subs has different Noise Pattern to other subs Like Harley davidson bike Engines

you Telling me that Leaked Documents some how done Deja vu or foresighted unconstructed subs details

Again.. Each sub will have a different noise profile but a class of sub will have a similar profile with very minute differences.

That is why every navy has standing instruction to destroy the sub in case of disaster. You analyse one sub and you get the key to entire class.