Sensitive Data of Indian Navy’s Scorpene Class Submarines Leaked

[Shankranthi]

Not much of leak it can be modified and corrected by measures technically

Never the less it more or like looks similar to me how can you can asses subs performance based on data written on 2011

Similar leak was done in Kremlin but the project is still on and going great

Everything in the world can be corrected with enough Money and Time.

Let's say a 1 Billion $ and 5 to 10 years time.

 

[cerberus]

OK let's just wait. But my understanding was that each sub has unique signatures that can only be knon "after" the sub comes out of sea trials ?

Yes it fact last two subs are modified with Indian subsystem

Nevertheless any technical measurement can be corrected by change in algorithms and modification

 

[Spectre]

Not much of leak it can be modified and corrected by measures technically

Never the less it more or like looks similar to me how can you can asses subs performance based on data written on 2011

Similar leak was done in Kremlin but the project is still on and going great

What measures technically?

Can you change the engine to change noise profile?
Can you change the hull to alter noise reduction measures?
Can you remove 100s of sensors and replace them with alternatives as their profiles are out meaning enemy can take counter measures?
Can you change the torpedo launch system? because it has significant impact on how the other vessels perceive the lock?

I go on but the point is - mitigating the damage would require extremely expensive overhaul and drastic design changes. Which is close to impossible because of cost and time involved.

 

[Shankranthi]

Pure BS leaks are done on data return 2011

The scorpene sub's have different parameters for different subs

Suppose last scorpene sub's are filled with Indian AIP and sensors system
Any technical parameters can be changed its all about algorithms

As far to this leak it looking minor
Let the report come

Are you telling me that a single model of Aircraft, automobile, ship or Submarine will have different operational parameters ?

 

[Pakistan First]

Another fuckup. Congrats to Indian Military.

 

[cerberus]

Everything in the world can be corrected with enough Money and Time.

Let's say a 1 Billion $ and 5 to 10 years time.

Naa h it minor changes only changes in algorithms we do the trick

 

[Nilgiri]

PTI reports that leaked document covers a variety of details including the secret stealth capabilities of six new Indian submarines — including but not restricted to the

1. Frequencies at which they gather intelligence at, what noise they make at various speeds and their diving depths, range and endurance.

2. Safe zones on board the submarine where crew members can safely speak without fear of detection by the enemy.

3. Vessel's underwater sensors (4,457), its above-water sensors (4,209),

4. Combat management system (4,301),

5. Navigation systems (2,138),

6. Communications system (6,841)

7. Torpedo launch system.


@Olaf One-Brow @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Nilgiri seems like more than manuals to me.

All thats described would be in the manual in some way.

Like every antenna is going to have a frequency range and specific modes of operation in a detailed manual. What really matters is the details of the architecture in the signal processing....an opponent could make new submarines to hypothetically exploit certain weaknesses at various ranges....but this is pretty darn hard to do not to mention expensive with no guarantee. Only basic elements of this would be in a manual....dunno about adjuncts (not my field).

The noise at various speeds also depends how detailed of a profile it is. Like is there an acoustic waveform presented...or is it a simple decibel range for calibration and other purposes?

There is a high variance of the potential potency of all of this. Can't decide how bad this leak is just on words I am afraid.

 

[Shankranthi]

Yes it fact last two subs are modified with Indian subsystem

Nevertheless any technical measurement can be corrected by change in algorithms and modification

Latest report suggested that Indian AIP is scrapped. IN wanted DCNS AIP.

What measures technically?

Can you change the engine to change noise profile?
Can you change the hull to alter noise reduction measures?
Can you remove 100s of sensors and replace them with alternatives as their profiles are out meaning enemy can take counter measures?
Can you change the torpedo launch system? because it has significant impact on how the other vessels perceive the lock?

I go on but the point is - mitigating the damage would require extremely expensive overhaul and drastic design changes. Which is close to impossible because of cost and time involved.

Apparently these can be done by "changing algorithms"

 

[PARIKRAMA]

PTI reports that leaked document covers a variety of details including the secret stealth capabilities of six new Indian submarines — including but not restricted to the

1. Frequencies at which they gather intelligence at, what noise they make at various speeds and their diving depths, range and endurance.

2. Safe zones on board the submarine where crew members can safely speak without fear of detection by the enemy.

3. Vessel's underwater sensors (4,457), its above-water sensors (4,209),

4. Combat management system (4,301),

5. Navigation systems (2,138),

6. Communications system (6,841)

7. Torpedo launch system.


@Olaf One-Brow @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Nilgiri seems like more than manuals to me.

THis is the page on which basis all noise things are being said

Pls refer to this

as i said earlier its guaranteed noise levels inside submarines as depicted in the first page where all component space is defined under standard conditions of sea state 1.

The whole world knows you wont raise periscope at high speed.. and safety depth is a known feature in a basic RFI.

each of those points from 2-7 does not share the technical specs but rather the operating manuals. The reason being Scorpene in Indian MDL has much higher localisation and most of the parts are being made locally by pvt sector MIC.

Thus if a data leak happens from Indian vendors we can kiss capability good bye. Here the whole leak as and when investigation is completed will show its manuals only.

Sadly the procedures and manuals marked restricted not "confidential" and "for eyes only" kind of gives away .. of course its a breach but still Indian scorpenes are not compromised as we would like to believe in a knee jerk reaction.

 

[cerberus]

Are you telling me that a single model of Aircraft, automobile, ship or aircraft will have different operational parameters ?

Yes all are about what Technical parameters you are talking about

For example one aircraft has AeSa and drfm

Other has MMR

You can spot the difference in their performance

 

[shah1398]

Documents detailing the secret combat capabilities of Scorpene-class submarines that French shipbuilder DCNS has designed for the Indian Navy have been leaked, and could prove to a bonanza for India’s rivals such as Pakistan, according to an Australian media report on Tuesday.

It wud be interesting to know about source of the leak.

 

[Shankranthi]

Yes all are about what Technical parameters you are talking about

For example one aircraft has AeSa and drfm

Other has MMR

You can spot the difference in their performance

Read my post AGAIN. I am talking about the SAME MODEL of Aircraft, Ships or Subs.

THis is the page on which basis all noise things are being said


View attachment 328402
View attachment 328403
View attachment 328404

Pls refer to this
View attachment 328405

as i said earlier its guaranteed noise levels inside submarines as depicted in the first page where all component space is defined under standard conditions of sea state 1.

The whole world knows you wont raise periscope at high speed.. and safety depth is a known feature in a basic RFI.

each of those points from 2-7 does not share the technical specs but rather the operating manuals. The reason being Scorpene in Indian MDL has much higher localisation and most of the parts are being made locally by pvt sector MIC.

Thus if a data leak happens from Indian vendors we can kiss capability good bye. Here the whole leak as and when investigation is completed will show its manuals only.

Sadly the procedures and manuals marked restricted not "confidential" and "for eyes only" kind of gives away .. of course its a breach but still Indian scorpenes are not compromised as we would like to believe in a knee jerk reaction.

I am guessing that the newspaper would face legal action if they publish documents marked "confidential".

Its reasonable to assume that such documents were not published, but very much in possession with the Newspaper as they have suggested.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Q: Is this leak targeted at the AUS sub deal and the Indian Subs happened to be in the Blast area or is it the other way round? If the Latter why send the leaked data to an Aussie Newspaper?

The trail is longer surely.. but its a target for both India and australia.. tbh barracuda shares limited similarity to scorpenes.. so Australia is not affected much other than loss of reputation and credibility of DCNS
India suffers much more owing to the second assembly line and future cooperation which will now be played by yellow journalism articles.. The case of Dassault being costly and DCNS being a source of leak will be played so much that finally opposition and the whole masses will say maintain freeze over underwater fleet expansion.

In one shot the end loser is whom - Australia no contract signed till date
or India where everything from one line to second for parallely 5 sub production to all cooperation everything goes up the smoke..

connect the dots you will see the big picture.. Finally a new war is now initiated against India in a big way...

 

[Spectre]

All thats described would be in the manual in some way.

Like every antenna is going to have a frequency range and specific modes of operation in a detailed manual. What really matters is the details of the architecture in the signal processing....an opponent could make new submarines to hypothetically exploit certain weaknesses at various ranges....but this is pretty darn hard to do not to mention expensive with no guarantee. Only basic elements of this would be in a manual....dunno about adjuncts (not my field).

The noise at various speeds also depends how detailed of a profile it is. Like is there an acoustic waveform presented...or is it a simple decibel range for calibration and other purposes?

There is a high variance of the potential potency of all of this. Can't decide how bad this leak is just on words I am afraid.

We are not talking about receiving but transmission.

When one knows the noise frequency details at various depths - then one doesn't need to build a new sub. All enemy has to do is to code the information in the mission computer or at max add a few sensors to cover left out frequencies and voila! you are good to go.. To counter it is not so easy and would require expensive overhaul of major emission and emission mitigation systems

Let's take the best case scenario - instead of complete profile of. waveforms what they have is just a range. Now range cannot be too broad as then it would be useless for caliberation. This still makes the job of enemy much easier. Instead scanning the complete spectrum they just have to focus on a narrow range of frequencies.

Pls understand that frequency profiles are DNA finger prints. Unique - you can't confuse it with something else. You can change the noise profiles at different depths sure but for a given depth there is only so much you can do. So the calibration while important at receiver end is not so significant at transmission end. TLDR we are stuck..

Sub to sub battles is not a long chess game - it is high noon style shoot-out. Detect - Shoot - Scoot.

That is why the saying - run silent, run deep.

 

[Shankranthi]

The trail is longer surely.. but its a target for both India and australia.. tbh barracuda shares limited similarity to scorpenes.. so Australia is not affected much other than loss of reputation and credibility of DCNS
India suffers much more owing to the second assembly line and future cooperation which will now be played by yellow journalism articles.. The case of Dassault being costly and DCNS being a source of leak will be played so much that finally opposition and the whole masses will say maintain freeze over underwater fleet expansion.

In one shot the end loser is whom - Australia no contract signed till date
or India where everything from one line to second for parallely 5 sub production to all cooperation everything goes up the smoke..

connect the dots you will see the big picture.. Finally a new war is now initiated against India in a big way...

Its a case of killing more than 2 birds with one stone.