Sadr to Trump: did you forget vietnam son of nightclubs? saudi money will not save you

[gangsta_rap]

There was nothing called Yemen back then anymore than there was an Iraq, Syria, Qatar, Kuwait, UAE, Oman etc. He was from Arabia. In fact from modern-day KSA.

I might have to read up more but you have to admit that what is today Yemen was somewhat distinct from the rest of Arabia. The Himyar Kingdom and all...

 

[ArabianEmpires&Caliphates]

https://www.reddit.com/r/path%3D%252Fr%252FAskHistorians%252Fcomments%252F3wr9pe%252F

Can you mention a single thing that does not originate from the Arab world (pre-Islamic Semitic traditions that the Persians adopted - since their civilization was mostly a copy of our Semitic civilizations)?

Just mention a single thing.

@dani92

Now even if there was some tiny influence, how does that even REMOTELY compared to the GIANT Arab/Semitic influence on Iran since before Islam and after?

Are Iranians less Arabized than Arabs are imaginary "Persianized"? Is that it?

He was from Yemen? interesting...

All the way from Yemen to Southern France - now that's a real adventure..

There was nothing called Yemen back then anymore than there was an Iraq, Syria, Qatar, Iran, Kuwait, UAE, Oman etc. He was from Arabia. In fact from modern-day KSA.

 

[Microsoft]

Doubt what?! That the houthis are arab qahtanites?! Also the Yemeni qahtanite tribes were the spearhead in battles against Sassanids, Byzantines and Berbers also they the spearhead of Ali and Muyawiah Armies in Jamal, seffin, and nehrawan. Just read about the Yemeni gahtanate warriors like Malik Al-Ashtar in qadisiyiah and yarmouk and Umr Bin Mo’adikarb Al-Zubaidi in qadisiyiah and nahawand and Hassan bin Nooman Al-Ghassani in North Africa and Musa Bin Nusair Al-lakhmi Al-Tunokhi in Al-Andalus and Abdulrahman Al-ghafiqi in Andalus and France and many more I don’t remember right now.

Don't doubt. Relax and read carefully bud.

 

[mangekyo]

Can you mention a single thing that does not originate from the Arab world (pre-Islamic Semitic traditions that the Persians adopted - since their civilization was mostly a copy of our Semitic civilizations)?

Just mention a single thing.

https://www.academia.edu/28642134/Contribution_of_Persia_to_the_World_Civilization_2015_R_.pdf

Knock yourself out pal

 

[ArabianEmpires&Caliphates]

I might have to read up more but you have to admit that what is today Yemen was somewhat distinct from the rest of Arabia. The Himyar Kingdom and all...

Every city and village in every region of the world is "distinct". Yemen is/was/has always been part of the historical region that is Arabia.

The Arab Near East (Arabia, Levant, Mesopotamia - borders of those 3 regions were always fluid hence the deep and close connections since always) as well as Egypt (to a smaller degree as they had a more isolated culture based around the Nile outside of Eastern Egypt and Sinai which was more like the Arab Near East) was always/is to this day the same cultural/civilizational sphere. Of course with distinct features but it makes little sense to use modern day nation states and compare it with old times.

For instance in modern day times (politically, religiously) Southern Iraq (Iraqi Shia Arab heartland), despite most people there, being recent migrants from mainly Najd, having converted to Shia Islam fairly recently, is viewed politically as a region totally apart, while Sunni Arab regions are not, even though Southern Iraq has had more/closer/is geographically closer to Arabia than say the Al-Jazira region (Northern Iraq and Eastern Syria) which today is mostly inhabited by Dulaim, Shammar, Jabour etc. Arab tribes who are mostly Sunni in origin.

Where do you draw the line?

Northern Yemen is different from Southern Yemen. Northern Yemen has more in common with Southern KSA. Hijaz has more in common with Egypt and Sham/Levant than Eastern Province of KSA. Najd has more in common with Southern Iraq on every field other than sect and politics. Southern Iran has arguably (other than language) historically have had much more in common with next door Eastern Arabia than Northwestern Iran or Northeastern Iran.

Pakistan, on most maps, is considered a part of South Asia, but the average Baloch has more in common with an Omani than he has with a Bengali. A Punjabi in Lahore has more in common with a Punjabi across the border in India, aside from religion and politics, than he was with a Pashtun next to the border of Afghanistan.

https://www.academia.edu/28642134/Contribution_of_Persia_to_the_World_Civilization_2015_R_.pdf

Knock yourself out pal

90% of those "contributions" being Semitic in origin.

https://www.adc.org/arab-contributions-to-civilization/

Knock yourself out!

Might telling me where the cradle of civilizations are located if not the Arab Near East?

Mind telling me how come Arabia has inhabited by people 100.000 years prior to Iran being that? Why almost all of your haplogroups originate in Arabia?

Why all your symbols, titles, beuraocracy (copy of the Assyrian and Babylonians empires) are copies of our ancient Semitic symbols.

Even your Nowruz is an ancient pre-Abrahamic (themselves Semitic) Semitic holiday celebrated by our ancestors from Yemen to Syria.

The title "king of kings" is an ancient title of ours as well.

Your first pre-Islamic alphabet was a copy of our Semitic alphabet.

Your lingua franca was Aramaic, a Semitic language closely related to Arabic.

I could go on.

Now please tell me about which influence that you have had on us Arabs. A foolish compatriot of yours said that Iran was the nation of Hussein. A Hijazi guy that was born in KSA (Hijaz) and had NOTHING to do with Iran, lol.

But who am I kidding, you guys invented a thing like Persian Caliphagray, which is just Arab/Islamic caligraphy with 3 extra letters, lol, just to differentiate yourself because of your small ego.

The whole Safavid conversion from Sunni Islam to Shia Islam (using Arab Mullah's, including from modern-day Eastern Province of KSA) was a part of this little ego trip as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_conversion_of_Iran_to_Shia_Islam#Arab_Shia_Ulama

As were your Wilayat al-Faqih Arab wannabe Mullah's (Khomeini and Khamenei) both more Arab than Arabs, lol.

@dani92

Arabized Persia STRONG with the GREEK ruined columns of PERSOPOLIS (nice Greek name)!

 

[Shapur Zol Aktaf]

@waz
delete off-topic posts please.

 

[mangekyo]

Theres some error when I try uploading a reddit link, so I tried customising the link. Here is someone who asks How Persian Empire has influenced Arabs to real historians, and they answer, I dont personally give a crap, but to anyone who are interested and have been reading this racist person/groups comments, here is the link: https://bit.ly/35xxlrQ

 

[dani92]

He was from Yemen? interesting...

All the way from Yemen to Southern France - now that's a real adventure..

Qahtanate Arabs also called yemenites which is different from Yemeni the citizen of Yemen republic not all Yemenis are Qahtanis they is also Adnanates in Yemen who also called Ishmaelies specially The Hashimate families.

 

[ArabianEmpires&Caliphates]

Qahtanate Arabs also called yemenites which is different from Yemeni the citizen of Yemen republic not all Yemenis are Qahtanis they is also Adnanates in Yemen who also called Ishmaelies specially The Hashimate families.

This whole qahtanite/adnanite thing, is just ancient fairytales/oral history like 1000's of such examples throughout history all across the world. They have done DNA studies on a group of very isolated Kuwaiti Bedouins of both supposed qathanite/adnanite origins and found that they were clustering together/part of the same haplogroups.

It was a political distinction that originated during the Umayyad/Abbasid conflict. Now religiously worshipped by some ultranationalists Yemenis who falsely claim that only Yemenis are original Arabs, lol.

The reality is that all of Arabia was Arabized as well and Yemen was one of the last regions of Arabia to be Arabized, in fact at the time of Prophet Muhammad (saws) most of Yemen spoke non-Arabic languages unlike much of Iraq, Syria etc. already back then.

So in fact, using that logic, Yemen is far more Arabized than Syria, Jordan, Palestine, Sinai/Egypt, Iraq etc. is, lol.

 

[mangekyo]

By a Pakistani academic:

"The Administration of Abbasids Caliphate: A Fateful Change in the Muslim History" by Mohammed Tahir, a great Pakistani academic, in The Pakistan Journal of Commerce and Social Sciences. In the beginning of his article, he actually conceptualizes the defeat of the Umayyads and the Rise of the Abbasids, as well as the change of capital from Damascus to Baghdad as a battle of influences. The Capital had already been moved from Medina to Damascus, because of the centralization, and in a sense to also remove the Capital from its semi-nomadic roots in the desert to the high culture of the Byzantine/Levantine cultural sphere, though they retained a largely Arab-Centric Society and leadership. He argues that much of the ways that the Caliphs would begin to present themselves and operate during the Umayyad Caliphate was influenced by the way the Byzantine emperor operated, and it greatly influenced the more political nature of the Caliph ul-Islam. This influence would be changed when the Abbasids would adopt a far more Persianised point of view. They would move the capital towards Baghdad, and create a sort of Second person capital, and a new more persian empire on the remains of the more Arab Kingdom that they had vanquished to the far ends of Al-Andalus. (Although to be fair the Capital was actually moved to Kufa, then to Baghdad, then it had a stint in Ar-Raqqah and Samarra for short periods in between being in Baghdad as well). The Abbasids used the discontent of the Arabic centric politics that didn't really work with the growing diversity of the empire, to take control of it -- much of this misbalance was owed to what was effectively the swallowing of Persia and in turn its people and their culture.

It is also important to consider linguistic politics here as well. The Persian language, unlike many others in the region, took on a really important role. The language adopted an arabic writing system, and there was actually a great deal of patronage for works in the Persian language -- entire bodies of work and poetry in the Persian language flourished and the language itself would interact a great deal with Arabic and help create Arabic vernaculars. Much of these details can be discussed in Hayrettin Yucesoy's work "Language of Empire: Politics of Arabic and Persian in the Abbasid World.", he is a professor of the Medieval Middle East at WUStL.

The Abbasids would employ Persian methods of administration and bureaucracy, and even had many persians occupy important positions in government, marking a movement away from the ethnic rulership of the Arabs over all others (actually one of the Reasons the Umayyad fell in the first place). They also would adopt, from the Sassanid emperor, the idea of a Caliph who ruled with the divine sanctioning of God, a concept that would forever mark the position. The court life of the Caliphate would look much like that of the Persians, and the Caliph would wear a black turban, carry a staff of the prophet, and have the Quran before him on his throne as every one of his attendants and officials would kiss his hand when greeting him. They borrowed their system of investiture from the Persians as well.

They would also institute the Wazirate, a Wazir being a sort of prime minister, someone invested with all the sovereign powers to help the Caliph rule. They were often Persian, and would help in this transformation of administration. In addition other offices, such as that of an Executioner, and a diplomatic corps. The position of Wazir would exist and die with the Abbasid caliphate. So to conclude, the Abbasid Caliphate was emerged in a way as a more persianised alternative to the Umayyads, and they would go onto use Persian administration and language (and also artistic culture that I hope someone will be able to discuss more than I could.) I hope that gives you some insight, and if you'd like to know more, feel free to ask!

 

[Rasengan]

The problem with most people they focus on past history rather than looking at the present. Both Iran and Saudi Arabia have failed the Muslim world and are more concerned about killing each other rather than making Muslims stronger. Both have important roles to play Iran (leader of Shia) and Saudi Arabia (leader of Sunni).

 

[mangekyo]

Persians dramatically outnumbered Arabs. They were vastly wealthier, had a tremendously larger cultural tradition, including literacy, and they were more urban and sophisticated. The Umayyads tried hard to keep the Arabs ruling the Near East segregated from local populations in order to maintain Arab cultural unity, but in the far-flung areas of Khorasan (what is today Uzbekistan) this proved impossible, and Arabs and Persians mingled a great deal. The Persians had more wealth and culture, so they tended to make the Arabs more Persian than the converse.

A good example of this is when al-Mansour built Baghdad in the 760s. The city was arranged in such a way as to conform to Persian obsessions with astrology, and when Mansour was installed, he had it done in the manner of a Persian king.

 

[dani92]

This whole qahtanite/adnanite thing, is just ancient fairytales/oral history like 1000's of such examples throughout history all across the world. They have done DNA studies on a group of very isolated Kuwaiti Bedouins of both supposed qathanite/adnanite origins and found that they were clustering together/part of the same haplogroups.

It was a political distinction that originated during the Umayyad/Abbasid conflict. Now religiously worshipped by some ultranationalists Yemenis who falsely claim that only Yemenis are original Arabs, lol.

The reality is that all of Arabia was Arabized as well and Yemen was one of the last regions of Arabia to be Arabized, in fact at the time of Prophet Muhammad (saws) most of Yemen spoke non-Arabic languages unlike much of Iraq, Syria etc. already back then.

So in fact, using that logic, Yemen is far more Arabized than Syria, Jordan, Palestine, Sinai/Egypt, Iraq etc. is, lol.

Yes the claim about Yemen is origin of Arabs it’s false some say Arabs originated in hijaz or Jordan.

Persians dramatically outnumbered Arabs. They were vastly wealthier, had a tremendously larger cultural tradition, including literacy, and they were more urban and sophisticated. The Umayyads tried hard to keep the Arabs ruling the Near East segregated from local populations in order to maintain Arab cultural unity, but in the far-flung areas of Khorasan (what is today Uzbekistan) this proved impossible, and Arabs and Persians mingled a great deal. The Persians had more wealth and culture, so they tended to make the Arabs more Persian than the converse.

A good example of this is when al-Mansour built Baghdad in the 760s. The city was arranged in such a way as to conform to Persian obsessions with astrology, and when Mansour was installed, he had it done in the manner of a Persian king.

The so called Persian culture was no different from the steppe Turkic culture and everything the Iranians later had was because they observed the Elamites and Mesopotamian civilizations plus the civilizations of Greece, Anatolia, Levant and Egypt.

By a Pakistani academic:

"The Administration of Abbasids Caliphate: A Fateful Change in the Muslim History" by Mohammed Tahir, a great Pakistani academic, in The Pakistan Journal of Commerce and Social Sciences. In the beginning of his article, he actually conceptualizes the defeat of the Umayyads and the Rise of the Abbasids, as well as the change of capital from Damascus to Baghdad as a battle of influences. The Capital had already been moved from Medina to Damascus, because of the centralization, and in a sense to also remove the Capital from its semi-nomadic roots in the desert to the high culture of the Byzantine/Levantine cultural sphere, though they retained a largely Arab-Centric Society and leadership. He argues that much of the ways that the Caliphs would begin to present themselves and operate during the Umayyad Caliphate was influenced by the way the Byzantine emperor operated, and it greatly influenced the more political nature of the Caliph ul-Islam. This influence would be changed when the Abbasids would adopt a far more Persianised point of view. They would move the capital towards Baghdad, and create a sort of Second person capital, and a new more persian empire on the remains of the more Arab Kingdom that they had vanquished to the far ends of Al-Andalus. (Although to be fair the Capital was actually moved to Kufa, then to Baghdad, then it had a stint in Ar-Raqqah and Samarra for short periods in between being in Baghdad as well). The Abbasids used the discontent of the Arabic centric politics that didn't really work with the growing diversity of the empire, to take control of it -- much of this misbalance was owed to what was effectively the swallowing of Persia and in turn its people and their culture.

It is also important to consider linguistic politics here as well. The Persian language, unlike many others in the region, took on a really important role. The language adopted an arabic writing system, and there was actually a great deal of patronage for works in the Persian language -- entire bodies of work and poetry in the Persian language flourished and the language itself would interact a great deal with Arabic and help create Arabic vernaculars. Much of these details can be discussed in Hayrettin Yucesoy's work "Language of Empire: Politics of Arabic and Persian in the Abbasid World.", he is a professor of the Medieval Middle East at WUStL.

The Abbasids would employ Persian methods of administration and bureaucracy, and even had many persians occupy important positions in government, marking a movement away from the ethnic rulership of the Arabs over all others (actually one of the Reasons the Umayyad fell in the first place). They also would adopt, from the Sassanid emperor, the idea of a Caliph who ruled with the divine sanctioning of God, a concept that would forever mark the position. The court life of the Caliphate would look much like that of the Persians, and the Caliph would wear a black turban, carry a staff of the prophet, and have the Quran before him on his throne as every one of his attendants and officials would kiss his hand when greeting him. They borrowed their system of investiture from the Persians as well.

They would also institute the Wazirate, a Wazir being a sort of prime minister, someone invested with all the sovereign powers to help the Caliph rule. They were often Persian, and would help in this transformation of administration. In addition other offices, such as that of an Executioner, and a diplomatic corps. The position of Wazir would exist and die with the Abbasid caliphate. So to conclude, the Abbasid Caliphate was emerged in a way as a more persianised alternative to the Umayyads, and they would go onto use Persian administration and language (and also artistic culture that I hope someone will be able to discuss more than I could.) I hope that gives you some insight, and if you'd like to know more, feel free to ask!

Yes the abbasids did copy a lot from Persians but from where did the Persians get these things?! Oh wait from the Iraqi Mesopotamian civilizations

 

[ArabianEmpires&Caliphates]

@dani92

Nothing quite like unsourced Farsi fairytales stories who's entire existence was first recorded by our ancestors and whose entire civilization is/was our-offspring, whether in pre-Islamic times or Islamic times.

Imagine living in your own native land (vastly bigger, vastly richer, vastly more populous always - continues to this day - no comparison), which far older, greater and more influential civilizations (with your ancestors being the ones to colonize the Iranian plateau ages ago), needing to copy some small bureaucratic principles from an inferior entity even compared to Rome and Greek which had far greater influence on Arabs, in particular Greeks (mutual as well).

If you dig deeper and scratch the surface, it is very easy to figure out, even common logic and just a little bit of historical knowledge, human migrations etc. is enough to pick this nonsense apart that luckily has very little following in professional circles.

Even their beloved Iranica Enclycopdia admits this:

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/babylonia-ii

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/languages/aramaic.htm

https://www.ksk.edu.ee/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/KVUOA_Toimetised_16_9_Johandi.pdf

http://www.unm.edu/~gbawden/328-exp/328-exp.htm

Knock yourself out:

@dani92 @camelguy

Now, do I really need to mention the post-Islamic influence or is that self-explanatory for even the most illiterate individual on the planet? I think so.

 

[mangekyo]

By Arab historian Ibn Khaldun:

“…It is a remarkable fact that, with few exceptions, most Muslim scholars…in the intellectual sciences have been non-Arabs…thus the founders of grammar were Sibawaih and after him, al-Farisi and Az-Zajjaj. All of them were of Persian descent…they invented rules of (Arabic) grammar…great jurists were Persians… only the Persians engaged in the task of preserving knowledge and writing systematic scholarly works. Thus the truth of the statement of the prophet becomes apparent, ‘If learning were suspended in the highest parts of heaven the Persians would attain it”…The intellectual sciences were also the preserve of the Persians, left alone by the Arabs, who did not cultivate them…as was the case with all crafts…This situation continued in the cities as long as the Persians and Persian countries, Iraq, Khorasan and Transoxiana (modern Central Asia), retained their sedentary culture.”[ Translated by F. Rosenthal (III, pp. 311-15, 271-4 [Arabic]; Frye, R.N. (1977). Golden Age of Persia, London: Weidenfeld & Nicolson, p.9