SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[MastanKhan]

For starters the Mirage 5. Although there are rumors they were helped by Dassault.

Hi,

If you are responding to my question---then your answer is incorrect---.

You must not have read the book about the operation that bagged the blueprints of the mirage 5 being built in switzerland---they weighed about 2 tons and were stored in a general storage facility---someone guided the israelis in that direction---the storage manager was a ' kind ' hearted man and looked the other way after his pockets were warmed---.

So---that is not reverse engineering.

Reverse engineering is something that you have to build something from the actual copy without the benefits of blueprints or other material, technical or FUNCTIONAL input---which means---that you take it apart---look and analyze every part and understand how every part was designed to function and what it would do.

As jew scientists were on both the sides of the wall and most of the inventions had jewish scientists influence in them----reverse engineering was not what they were looking for.

But rather---ENHANCED engineering product is what they were after---once they decided to manufacture it themselves---after stealing the designs---.

Here is a quote from a post on sinodefence forum

"he fighter that Israel produced Kfir, which is a perfect copy of Mirage 5 Israel got all the blueprint from Swiss engineer who work on licence built mirage 5 for the swiss airforce. So much for high fallutin IAI. They steal the design of Mirage 5 lock stock and barrel

By 1968, Dassault had finished production of the 50 Mirage 5Js paid for by Israel, but an arms embargo imposed upon Israel by the French government in 1967 prevented deliveries from taking place. The Israelis replied by producing an unlicensed copy of the Mirage 5, the Nesher, with technical specifications for both the airframe and the engine obtained by Israeli spies.[1] Some sources claim Israel received 50 Mirage 5s in crates from French Air Force (AdA), while the AdA took over the 50 aircraft originally intended for Israel

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-01-19/news/mn-255_1_alfred-frauenknecht
Alfred Frauenknecht, 64, a Swiss engineer found guilty in 1971 of selling Mirage jet engine secrets to Israel. Frauenknecht was sentenced to 4 1/2 years in prison in what was then Switzerland's biggest spy trial since World War II. At his trial, Frauenknecht, who was not Jewish, said he felt morally obliged to help the Jewish people after the 1967 Arab-Israeli Six-Day War. He said he was concerned that the Soviet Union was helping Egypt to rebuild its armed forces, while Israel was suffering from an arms embargo imposed by France after the war. The Israeli air force relied on French equipment for its Mirage jet fighter force. Frauenknecht was a senior engineer with the company that manufactured the Mirage jet fighter engines for the Swiss air force under license from the French company. He admitted receiving $200,000 from Israel for about 200,000 jet engine blueprints smuggled in crates. The case prompted the Swiss government to expel an Israeli military attache. In Aadorf, Switzerland, on Jan. 8 after a heart attack".

I had the book in possesion---but I guess the last time I moved---I donated it to a library.

 

[Avicenna]

Yes you are correct.

 

[SQ8]

Hi,

Could you please give the example of one major weapon that they reverse engineered.

F-16 assembly and structural jigs used later for Lavi
RLGs, early(1970s) radar tech, nuclear weapon designs
T-55s at the lower end
A huge amount of software
Etc etc

 

[Avicenna]

I think he meant Israeli examples of RE.

 

[messiach]

For starters the Mirage 5. Although there are rumors they were helped by Dassault.

Thats correct. Part of Bombardier AeroSp engineering core, i have collaborated with Dassault aviations and Enovia. Both the latter organisations are infested with Israelis.

 

[messiach]

F-16 assembly and structural jigs used later for Lavi
Etc etc

No IAI aircraft incld. LAVI in parts or full was ever transferred to chengu or elsewhere. Initial models had detailed spin and high-angle-of-attack testing in russian wind-tunnels. Sino-russian collaboration was key in J-10 development.

 

[SQ8]

No IAI aircraft incld. LAVI in parts or full was ever transferred to chengu or elsewhere. Initial models had detailed spin and high-angle-of-attack testing in russian wind-tunnels. Sino-russian collaboration was key in J-10 development.

I know a very senior GD engineer who would state otherwise. The Israelis sent a fairly large team to FW to learn to maintain their own jets in house and manufacture spare parts. In their goodwill , the GD engineers were very open to them. Information that ended up on the Lavi, and information that was shared beyond IAI.

Not saying that the J-10 is the lavi or that the program originated from there. But a lot of concepts were shared, and then a lot of assistance was taken from the Russians too.

Just because international relations point in one direction doesnt mean that cooperation for cash stops. The F-7MGs wing isnt something thought up in house either, or at least not without inspiration.

I am searching for an image from an old Grumman notebook which shows the idea for the cranked delta done by the Grumman engineer during the Super 7 program.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I know a very senior GD engineer who would state otherwise. The Israelis sent a fairly large team to FW to learn to maintain their own jets in house and manufacture spare parts. In their goodwill , the GD engineers were very open to them. Information that ended up on the Lavi, and information that was shared beyond IAI.

Not saying that the J-10 is the lavi or that the program originated from there. But a lot of concepts were shared, and then a lot of assistance was taken from the Russians too.

Just because international relations point in one direction doesnt mean that cooperation for cash stops. The F-7MGs wing isnt something thought up in house either, or at least not without inspiration.

I am searching for an image from an old Grumman notebook which shows the idea for the cranked delta done by the Grumman engineer during the Super 7 program.

This might/might not be it (double delta Sabre II)

http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fighter/f7mf.html

 

[SQ8]

This might/might not be it (double delta Sabre II)

http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fighter/f7mf.html

There is an image out there of the rough sketch by grumman engineers

 

[MastanKhan]

F-16 assembly and structural jigs used later for Lavi
RLGs, early(1970s) radar tech, nuclear weapon designs
T-55s at the lower end
A huge amount of software
Etc etc

Hi,

But that is not reverse engineering---. That is product enhancement---.

They would find the resource for the design---material---blue prints and have a total picture of the technology up in the front and build up on it---.

 

[帅的一匹]

http://wx4.sinaimg.cn/mw690/9d8673e1ly1fb0n1ymj0dj20hr0bujso0.jpg

 

[帅的一匹]

Hi,

But that is not reverse engineering---. That is product enhancement---.

They would find the resource for the design---material---blue prints and have a total picture of the technology up in the front and build up on it---.

Maybe PAF will be the first one in South Asia to produce 5th gen fighter in the near future.

 

[raazh]

http://wx4.sinaimg.cn/mw690/9d8673e1ly1fb0n1ymj0dj20hr0bujso0.jpg

What engine are those ?? The exhaust petals look a bit too dark for RD93 ..

 

[帅的一匹]

What engine are those ?? The exhaust petals look a bit too dark for RD93 ..

WS13E

 

[Akasa]

More photos of the FC-31 v2. The engines are WS-13E.