SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[TheSolution]

Project AZM does not exist anymore.

Yeah I know but it used to, which means the idea of a stealth platform was officially lurking around previously so there must be a reason why they chose J-10C instead of jumping straight to 5th generation aircraft

 

[That Guy]

If we had committed to the platform early on in 2011, we would be receiving them just about now. That's where strategic planning comes in.

PAF is excellent but it suffers from 'reactionary planning syndrome'. The PAF lacks a robust strategic thought culture. That is why their planning always reflects reaction not pre-emption.

They've committed a bunch of money to J-10C because they failed to forsee a proper role for JF-17 which ideally should've been planned as a medium class fighter like the F-16 or J-10s, way back in 1997. Now that they have committed to the J-10 instead of investing in an above the horizon next generation platform 10 years ago, they'll have to invest in NGFA all over again. In other words the PAF for the next 30 years will continue to suffer the logistical nightmare of managing 4 different platforms with just as many suppliers.

So the problem as I see it is that we don't know under what conditions or price tag that Pakistan even got the J-10Cs.

I agree that Pakistan should have invested in a NGFA program like the Chinese or Turkish fighters. To me the purchase of the J-10C was a waste of money.

Having said that, unless we're going to say that Pakistani military planners are incompetent, they probably had a good reason to do this. It's still not too late to invest in one of these programs, after all the second best time to invest is now (considering they failed to invest early).

Perhaps the PAF decided that 5th Gen were too expensive to maintain with Pakistan's small weak economy?

Who knows? Maybe you're right.

 

[MastanKhan]

Even in small numbers, they would've made an excellent tip of the spear asset for (a) nuclear role (b) air dominance vis a via Rafale. The J-10C fills the gap for the F-16s we didn't get. They maybe somewhat at par with Rafale but certainly does not give a wildcard advantage a low observable platform such as J-35 would have.

Hi,

Thank you for the post---.

Then the game goes to a different level where someone may not want to be---.

The enemy would go for something superior---.

Currently the opponent thinks that their aircraft is superior and they are happy with it----and we think we are a match on many fronts and superior in other fronts---.

So---as long as the enemy is happy with its procurement---we should stay with what we have and get some more---.

A realm of predictability is better than a realm of uncertainty---.

 

[Abid123]

So the problem as I see it is that we don't know under what conditions or price tag that Pakistan even got the J-10Cs.

PAF bought them at 50-60 million USD per unit. So for 36 J-10C we are talking roughly 1.8-2.2 billion USD.

 

[That Guy]

PAF bought them at 50-60 million USD per unit. So for 36 J-10C we are talking roughly 1.8-2.2 billion USD.

We don't actually know that though. That's just a number that's being thrown around, because we don't know anything about the negotiation process.

 

[Kompromat]

So the problem as I see it is that we don't know under what conditions or price tag that Pakistan even got the J-10Cs.

I agree that Pakistan should have invested in a NGFA program like the Chinese or Turkish fighters. To me the purchase of the J-10C was a waste of money.

Having said that, unless we're going to say that Pakistani military planners are incompetent, they probably had a good reason to do this. It's still not too late to invest in one of these programs, after all the second best time to invest is now (considering they failed to invest early).

Perhaps the PAF decided that 5th Gen were too expensive to maintain with Pakistan's small weak economy?

Who knows? Maybe you're right.

They're not incompetent, just short sighted. Hope that the new Think Tank PAF has created might fix that.

 

[SQ8]

They're not incompetent, just short sighted. Hope that the new Think Tank PAF has created might fix that.

Hopefully knowing leadership in Pakistan this isn’t the case

We don't actually know that though. That's just a number that's being thrown around, because we don't know anything about the negotiation process.

Interestingly, the PAF is following the same pattern it outlined many years ago for this timeframe - ~150 JF-17,~80 F-16, ~40PG, ~36 J-10 , ~60 Mirage ROSE types

What is changing is likely JF-17s taking on all of the F-7s and J-10s replacing more of the Mirages barring a few that carry strategic weapon systems or the ROSE variants.

 

[Ali_Baba]

If we had committed to the platform early on in 2011, we would be receiving them just about now. That's where strategic planning comes in.

PAF is excellent but it suffers from 'reactionary planning syndrome'. The PAF lacks a robust strategic thought culture. That is why their planning always reflects reaction not pre-emption.

They've committed a bunch of money to J-10C because they failed to forsee a proper role for JF-17 which ideally should've been planned as a medium class fighter like the F-16 or J-10s, way back in 1997. Now that they have committed to the J-10 instead of investing in an above the horizon next generation platform 10 years ago, they'll have to invest in NGFA all over again. In other words the PAF for the next 30 years will continue to suffer the logistical nightmare of managing 4 different platforms with just as many suppliers.

i think PAF's problem is more lack of money then anything else. The JF17 for example was originally hampered by the engine choice - Russians would only sell the RD-93 under indian pressure and china had nothing good at that stage.

PAF has always had to compromise and be pragmattic due to money issues(lack ) aswell as geopolitics and associated political influence on its decision making and procurement cycles.

JF17 would have been closer to the F16 interms of size, load, range if PAF had better engine choices during the design phase e.g. some derivative of the Saturn AL-31 series of engines. They may have asked Russia for the AL-31 series to build a jet around that - and Russia declined and offered only the RD-93 for PAF / China to build a jet around instead..

At that time - the talk of the town for russia was potentially the Suhkoi S-54 - single engine variant of the Su-27 series and they may have seen the China/Pakistan fighter as a potential commerical rival at that time ( the S-54 got dropped in the end and recenly a similar concept of a single engine fighter in the form of the Checkmate - Su-75 has been revived ).

PAF has always wanted a jet in the category of the F16 ...

 

[credence]

Land based J35. Confirmed !

 

[Luosifen]

Land based J35. Confirmed !View attachment 910513

Looks like an old, previously posted photo.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

 

[Deino]

Land based J35. Confirmed !View attachment 910513

No it is NOT and this has been discussed to death already more than once! It is just the original demonstrator 310003!

 

[Path-Finder]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1618267748651651072

 

[lcloo]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1618267748651651072

Movie mockup set. From the movie company that produced "Wondering Earth II" movie showing this month in the cinema.

 

[FuturePAF]

The WS-19 is rumored be 110kN. WS-13E at 100kN.

WS-19 is confirmed as a 10 ton engine = 22,046 lb. Max thrust = 97.9 kn

Basically the same class as the GE F414-400

But like the F414, improvements to this engine will probably come soon enough, IMHO, especially once breakthroughs on the development of the WS-15 yield the desired performances (180+ kn)

The F414 is planned to reach 26,000-28,000 lb max thrust or 115-125 kn. So a similar advancement maybe possible within a decade, IMHO, considering how quickly China is developing.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1622920035395162113

첩첩산중 낙동강 오리알 K-FX ..'구형엔진 GE' VS '기술이전 말 바꾼 유로제트'

K-FX 심장은?…'구형엔진 GE' VS '기술이전 말 바꾼 유로제트'KAI 전투기 '심장' 엔진 공급사 선정 절차 착수GE K-FX 탑재용으로 ‘F414-400’ 모델 제안해성능 높이는 세라믹복합소재 기술도 적용 안해유로제트 기술이전 GE와 유사한 58% 수준 제시차세대 한국형 전투기가 자칫 ‘구닥다리’로 전락할 수 있다는 우려의 목소리가 나온다. 전투기

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