SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[SABRE]

I would be very surprised if the AZM is better than the FC-31/J-35. Even if the reputation of SAC is not as good as CAC, it nonetheless still has decades of experience in fighter development. The FC-31 gets too much flak from both Chinese and Western audiences for many wrong reasons. We all will see next year how much the FC-31 has evolved in the last half decade.

Perhaps, AVIC should partner up SAC with CAC to streamline the FC-31 development.

 

[Signalian]

Do you believe in a military solution to Kashmir?

Yes, but not the only solution.

Maybe not now, but as you mention, if investment in developing indigenous capability and production begins from now and we can produce weaponry at will across the spectrum, say, in 10-15 years time - PA would be in a position to deal with IOK?

Pakistan needs to strengthen its economy, not with temporary gimmicks like loans, but through a solid footing. If Pakistan had oil, the story would have been different. Pakistan has its biggest resource as its population, who need jobs and pay taxes through income taxes. IK has been raising taxes on business, who take out money from pockets of public. IMO, one of the places where Pakistan can have a good start is through investing in technology - be it defence related or non-defence. Curtail the imports, start exporting. Most of the higher education students go abroad, some return to serve the country, mostly don't. This means that other countries accept their talents/skills and give them a chance to progress. If Pakistan has the R&D in universities, the ability to design in industries and then factories to produce the item - any item be it laptop, car, truck, tank, helicopter, aircraft, satellite etc then the country can start to prosper. This is where the International relations will take a turn in favour of Pakistan. The 'nuclear' status is not working anymore in the international arena. West takes it as major threat. Pakistan could have learnt from China or South Korea or any other country which has an active enemy sitting on its borders. As an example, take Hyundai, it sells cars and tanks. Pakistani military is interested in national projects to produce military vehicles and aircrafts, but the non-defence sector is trotting along otherwise since decades. Honda, Toyota and Suzuki are being assembled, the local brand Adam is dead. While USA helped South Korea by all means possible, China did the same for Pakistan. One has to see what went wrong where.

As Pakistan takes time to prosper, India gets stronger everyday. Its also vice verca, it goes in Pakistan's favour too. This is why India has created a conventional arms race since Pakistan poses an undeniable potent threat in the arena of cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, second strike capability and nuclear weapons. India has to live with this fact. The speed with which Pakistan's nuclear arsenal increased has created lots of stir in India and few other countries. But you see, Nuclear deterrent saves Pakistan from another 1971, but it doesn't guarantee IOK becoming a part of Pakistan.

Pakistan's progress and its development does not have to revolve around freedom of IOK. Pakistan has to build its economy for itself, for its public, for its say on international diplomatic levels and to repair its tarnished image since early 2000s.

Wars and mobilisation require money. Its next to impossible to take IOK without a strong economy. Realistically, in next 10 years, PAF might have replaced all older aircraft with JF-17 and maybe could have got its hands on more F-16s, but in a war PAF will suffer F-16 losses and those would need replacements. A stealth aircraft out of Azm might have come up. If PA buys VT-4, it still won't have enough modern tanks to replace AK or T-80 or VT-4 losses except if any T-59 or T-69 are left in storage as replacements. If AH-1F are put in storage, then they will replace T-129 losses. PN will have to replace corvette and frigate losses. Replacements are necessary to continue an offensive. Replacements by older systems provides no edge in quality while Pakistan already cannot match India's quantity. Pakistan will look towards China or Turkey or any other country to replenish losses during the war and then after the war. This again means importing weaponry and technology. If all the components of a weapons system are local, its cheaper to produce. Next, when the required amount is produced, the factory can either go in slow or minimal production or start exporting that weapons system. When a war occurs, the factory can produce en masse through round the clock shifts. Through clever designing of machinery, the factories which produce trucks or heavy construction machinery in peace time could be able to produce MRAP and Tanks during war.

Pakistan has to manage speed and tenacity in military domain as well as manage diplomacy and narrative in international domain to gain a foot hold in IOK which currently Pakistan might not be able to do so, unless through some miracle. How many days before international powers intervene and ask both countries to back off ? 3 days, 5 days maybe 7 days. Pakistan does not have enough military muscle to capture IOK. Importing more and more weapons to gain that strength will further drain its economy. Using newly acquired modern foreign weapons does not guarantee victory over IOK.

 

[Deino]

Shenyang FC-31 Could bring fresh Tactical scenarios in favor of Pakistan Airforce against Rafale
...

Do we really need yet again a new thread for the same topic??

We already have one and IMO it is enough:

SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

Due to some wide spread information on many sites and in the specialized media about the possibility of Pakistan acquiring the 5th generation Chinese (/Pakistani?) stealth fighter jet, and the communality of their future engine the WS-13. I have decided to open this thread for serious...

defence.pk

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

Pakistan will either end up something like J31 or TAI TFX under Project AZM Pakistan is not gonna make a plane from scratch we can't even make engines or Radars let alone Complete 5th Generation aircraft

Who said you must have the ability to produce engines and radars in order to construct a fighter aircraft?

Did China produce engines for the 128 JF-17 Thunders produced so far?

No.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

... Why do you people think Pakistan opted for JF 17 despite having offers of F16 and other western jets. ...

They are different weight classes. Do you think hundreds of light-weight A-5s, F-6s and F-7s should be replaced by medium-weight F-16s? Where's the logic, feasibility and effiency in that?

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Who said you must have the ability to produce engines and radars in order to construct a fighter aircraft?

Did China produce engines for the 128 JF-17 Thunders produced so far?

No.

They are trying to

 

[volatile]

Sir,

FC-31 is woefully inadequate and underdeveloped platform in comparison to F-35 in its current form; only 2 prototypes to show thus far and even the 2nd prototype look too 'clean' and with much inferior engine to be taken seriously. FC-31 is more of a concept demonstrator than being a warfighting machine in its current form.

Hundreds of F-35 variants have been developed and tested by now; F-35A and F-35B are mature variants at Block-3F stage and battle-tested over a number of countries including in Syria since 2017. How can you miss so many news items and leaks in relation?

Yes i agree with your point of view and may be this is PAF hesitance towards induction of FC31 as on today .By 2024 we are booked with JF17 orders and in parallel it will be a great time to building 1st prototype but in reality 5th generation technology is scarce resource with little or no help from US and EU many countries will struggle to keep up specially in Pakistan case there is an other constraint that is big money .Porject Azm in my view makes more sense around sensor fusion ,EW suite and other parameters as designing and building plan + engine is a big No .Simply we dont have a industrial base and private sector is not opened so in this case FC31 today being prototype /tech demonstrator will continue to develop in steady state like in 2013 first flight and now in 2019 second prototype .similarly i believe FC31 will be mature enough plane by 2024 as Chinese are not idiot to keep spending on this plane. It has potential and Azm compliments this potential with sensors and other suite

 

[Figaro]

Who said you must have the ability to produce engines and radars in order to construct a fighter aircraft?

Did China produce engines for the 128 JF-17 Thunders produced so far?

No.

There is something called the WS-13.

Perhaps, AVIC should partner up SAC with CAC to streamline the FC-31 development.

Never ... SAC would IMHO bring CAC down. SAC has so far failed to achieve any meaningful indigenous design ... they're hallmarks are ultimately still unlicensed flanker variations (J-15, J-16).

 

[Rafi]

<sigh> ☆ why this regurgitation of past arguments.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I would be very surprised if the AZM is better than the FC-31/J-35. Even if the reputation of SAC is not as good as CAC, it nonetheless still has decades of experience in fighter development. The FC-31 gets too much flak from both Chinese and Western audiences for many wrong reasons. We all will see next year how much the FC-31 has evolved in the last half decade.

Once again, I doubt the US cares enough about India to give it F-35s, especially when the S-400 is present. I could not imagine any scenario where the F-35 would be sold to India even if the PAF receives the FC-31. I am almost 100% sure India's 5th gen fighter is not going to be the F-35 but instead a fly away Su-57. There is just no way the US would sell their state of art fighter to a country with deep ties to Russian defense industry and one that possesses the S-400. Politics is one thing but national security is another.

I think folks are also forgetting that the J-31s we see right now are technology demonstrators.

They're not indicative of the final fighter design. However, the demonstrator is a very important step. SAC is effectively 10 years ahead of anything PAC/AvRID is doing (let's assume PAC/AvRID can access Chinese inputs like engines, avionics and even flight control tech as though it were CAC or SAC).

The other factor is that buying into the FC-31 may give Pakistan enough leverage later down the line to access Chinese inputs for a proprietary design later on. If we do it right, our side could learn a lot about the Chinese industry and gain a lot of roadways/contacts in China. We could even pull for other things, e.g., CH-7 UCAV.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

There is something called the WS-13.

There maybe but it hasn't been installed on any of the 128 JF-17 Thunders so far.

Point being, there was never a condition imposed on the project that JF-17 can only be produced if the Chinese produced their engines first.

Similarly, most of the stuff can be imported for FGF until as and when it is possible to be constructed in the country.

I just don't get why so many Pakistanis think only when every single bolt and screw is produced in Pakistan, only then Project Azm can be considered indigenous or purely a Pakistani aircraft PF-65 Sultan.

 

[IblinI]

 

[Daniel808]

What a beauty

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Hope PAF gets this beast

 

[IceCold]

Just look at it. Wow. Always loved the design in fact more than J-20 for one it closely resembles to raptor.