SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[帅的一匹]

To be honest, SU35 is not a must. It only reinforce PLAAF's power, not that strategical important compare with J20.

If Russia doesn't sell it, it's their loss.

 

[Tank131]

The reason Su-35 was acquired was mostly to gain access to the AL-41. China is still having many difficulties regarding their jet engine industry and hope experience with the AL-41 will help to overcome this.

AND as I have said before, the J-11/J-15/J-16 are NOT EVER going to be exported. If they were, PAF would have acquired them by now. The ONLY sources for 4.5+ Gen Strike Fighters will be Su-35 from Russia OR a modified JH-7B, plus a very small outside shot at Typhoon. That is it, and these too seem unlikely

 

[Viper0011.]

The reason Su-35 was acquired was mostly to gain access to the AL-41. China is still having many difficulties regarding their jet engine industry and hope experience with the AL-41 will help to overcome this.

AND as I have said before, the J-11/J-15/J-16 are NOT EVER going to be exported. If they were, PAF would have acquired them by now. The ONLY sources for 4.5+ Gen Strike Fighters will be Su-35 from Russia OR a modified JH-7B, plus a very small outside shot at Typhoon. That is it, and these too seem unlikely

1) There is a lot more newer tech in SU-35 that the Chinese wanted to try and learn to copy it. Engines were really secondary.

2) J-11B has already been offered to Pakistan. Pakistan is still studying it. I think there are two scenarios here. 1: Pakistan has strong trust in JFT block III being very close to F-16 block 52 (in capability, sensors, range and payload), in which case it makes sense to keep that program running that you own yourself. 2: They want the J-11D (more maturity onto J-11B platform). The radars are still a little behind in multi-target mode, like track 24, engage 6. I think you can only engage 2 simultaneously and Pakistan wants 4-6 at the least.

3) I personally think, Pakistan also wants to deal with Russia directly to build direct relationships and they may be silently hoping that the J-11 won't come on par with their requirements and they'll just get the SU-35, kind of making everyone happy I guess. But they have to cozy up to the Russians to a degree where these jets will be released.

So it'll be fun to watch what happens. One more jet may be purchased. The issue is, which one?

 

[MastanKhan]

The reason Su-35 was acquired was mostly to gain access to the AL-41. China is still having many difficulties regarding their jet engine industry and hope experience with the AL-41 will help to overcome this.

AND as I have said before, the J-11/J-15/J-16 are NOT EVER going to be exported. If they were, PAF would have acquired them by now. The ONLY sources for 4.5+ Gen Strike Fighters will be Su-35 from Russia OR a modified JH-7B, plus a very small outside shot at Typhoon. That is it, and these too seem unlikely

Hi,

Thank you very much for the post---sometimes it is so difficult to make the average pakistani understand to what is available and what is not.

The problem over here is that this disease of ignorance is not only prevalent in the civilians---but in the pakistan air force personal as well up to some extent.

1) There is a lot more newer tech in SU-35 that the Chinese wanted to try and learn to copy it. Engines were really secondary.

2) J-11B has already been offered to Pakistan. Pakistan is still studying it. I think there are two scenarios here. 1: Pakistan has strong trust in JFT block III being very close to F-16 block 52 (in capability, sensors, range and payload), in which case it makes sense to keep that program running that you own yourself. 2: They want the J-11D (more maturity onto J-11B platform). The radars are still a little behind in multi-target mode, like track 24, engage 6. I think you can only engage 2 simultaneously and Pakistan wants 4-6 at the least.

3) I personally think, Pakistan also wants to deal with Russia directly to build direct relationships and they may be silently hoping that the J-11 won't come on par with their requirements and they'll just get the SU-35, kind of making everyone happy I guess. But they have to cozy up to the Russians to a degree where these jets will be released.

So it'll be fun to watch what happens. One more jet may be purchased. The issue is, which one?

Hi,

Viper---the paf will have to understand that they might not get what they want in the first batch--but they will get it in the second batch.

They need to start with at least 18 of them----and they need to learn to fly and operate and maintain them---integration is not an easy process for a 4th gen and above aircraft.

The thing is that they think have SOME BREATHING ROOM now---but then if you look at the JF17 BLK1---they put that aircraft out there in a rush with an average fire control radar---but it gave their pilots enough time in the air to familiarize themselves and the maintenance crew how to work on it---even though the aircraft was only good for dropping dumb bombs and launching WVR missiles---.

A sqdrn strength of J11's would just totally change the psyche of the pakistani defence forces----it would be such a massive force multiplier.

The rejection of the J10C was due to the fact the the paf wanted to go full tilt with the BLK3 JF17---.

I think that for the BLK4---the air force needs two versions of this aircraft----.

1.Air superiority---keep it a similar size---give it the Gripen NG kind of structure and electronics upgrade---

2.Then another JF17 like the japanese F2---slighty larger than the F16---same style as in the NG type upgrade but with a bigger power plant---larger wing area and load carrying capacity around 6000-8000KG---so that the need for an F16 type aircraft disappears.

I think that it would be cheaper for the long run---paf would get a new aircraft with the state of the art electronics and don't have to worry about buying used F16---having them refurbished and then worrying about the sanctions---.

I personally think that for the second upgrade---there would be a much bigger market for that aircraft in the middle east and some african countries as well---even though that aircraft will beinfringing on the domain of the J10's---

Somehow I get a feeling that the Paf does not care much about the delta wing and canards in the front of an aircraft---. They would rather go for the JF17 type wing---.

 

[Quwa]

One way the PAF could get J-11s is by getting Russia to agree to a license fee. Granted, the Russians won't get as much as they could with selling Pakistan fighters directly, but if it isn't going to sell, then it might jump at the opportunity to get something out of China's J-11 production. Unlikely, though not the worst idea to be floated. @Tank131 @MastanKhan

 

[Akasa]

1) There is a lot more newer tech in SU-35 that the Chinese wanted to try and learn to copy it. Engines were really secondary.

I would disagree. The Chinese have been developing and fielding airborne AESA radars for quite some time now, which would hamper any Chinese interest in the Irbis-E. There isn't really enough information about the Su-35's EW/ECM, datalinks, or FBW system to draw a decent judgment of its need within the PLAAF.

There were reports, from a week or so ago, that the Chinese are testing a thrust-vectored variant of the WS-10B engine, with approximately 14.5 tons of thrust, aboard a flying testbed, so even the AL-41 might be out the window.

2) J-11B has already been offered to Pakistan. Pakistan is still studying it. I think there are two scenarios here. 1: Pakistan has strong trust in JFT block III being very close to F-16 block 52 (in capability, sensors, range and payload), in which case it makes sense to keep that program running that you own yourself. 2: They want the J-11D (more maturity onto J-11B platform). The radars are still a little behind in multi-target mode, like track 24, engage 6. I think you can only engage 2 simultaneously and Pakistan wants 4-6 at the least.

Pakistan has never been offered the J-11B. The Chinese made a de-facto agreement with the Russians not to export any Flanker derivatives, albeit not strictly or legally enforced.

3) I personally think, Pakistan also wants to deal with Russia directly to build direct relationships and they may be silently hoping that the J-11 won't come on par with their requirements and they'll just get the SU-35, kind of making everyone happy I guess. But they have to cozy up to the Russians to a degree where these jets will be released.

So it'll be fun to watch what happens. One more jet may be purchased. The issue is, which one?

So, what would be the technical difference between getting a J-11D as opposed to a Su-35 (Chinese Flankers won't be exported, but lets tickle the devil's tail for once)? In fact, I'd go as far as to project that the former will be significantly cheaper and will have the added benefit of AESA radars.

The reason Su-35 was acquired was mostly to gain access to the AL-41. China is still having many difficulties regarding their jet engine industry and hope experience with the AL-41 will help to overcome this.

There was a rumor that the 117S was exhibited at the 2012 Zhuhai Airshow but the Chinese weren't interested.

AND as I have said before, the J-11/J-15/J-16 are NOT EVER going to be exported. If they were, PAF would have acquired them by now. The ONLY sources for 4.5+ Gen Strike Fighters will be Su-35 from Russia OR a modified JH-7B, plus a very small outside shot at Typhoon. That is it, and these too seem unlikely

You left out the J-10C, which the Chinese can (and is pushing to) export.

 

[Tank131]

You left out the J-10C, which the Chinese can (and is pushing to) export

I should have been more clear, i meant heavy strike fighter. The J-10 would not fit that mold unfortunately and it appears the PAF has already ruled against going for it. It has less range and payload than the F-16 and not significantly better than JF-17 to warrant adding it. It would be redundant in the PAF fleet. The JF-17 block 3 should begim to somewhat approach its capabilities in terms of systems (albeit not physical performance). The Flanker and JH-7B (modified with something like J-16 electronics) would be more along the lines of PAF needs (in addition to the FC-31

 

[Akasa]

I should have been more clear, i meant heavy strike fighter. The J-10 would not fit that mold unfortunately and it appears the PAF has already ruled against going for it. It has less range and payload than the F-16 and not significantly better than JF-17 to warrant adding it. It would be redundant in the PAF fleet. The JF-17 block 3 should begim to somewhat approach its capabilities in terms of systems (albeit not physical performance). The Flanker and JH-7B (modified with something like J-16 electronics) would be more along the lines of PAF needs (in addition to the FC-31

That would make sense, even though the Su-35 wouldn't fit into that category either.

Could elaborate on why would the J-10 has less range/payload than a F-16 and wouldn't be "better" than a JF-17?

 

[Tank131]

The J-10 does have less range and payload than the F-16 block 52. It is what it is. Not sure aerodynamically why but it does. As for it vs JF-17, I am not saying it isnt a better aircraft, but not so significantly that it warrants the added cost of a third fighter type with all the maintenance and logistics that go into that. They have significant areas where the two overlap in terms of capabilities with the J-10 usually edging out the JF-17 except that it costs 10-15 mill more per aircraft.

 

[Akasa]

The J-10 does have less range and payload than the F-16 block 52. It is what it is. Not sure aerodynamically why but it does. As for it vs JF-17, I am not saying it isnt a better aircraft, but not so significantly that it warrants the added cost of a third fighter type with all the maintenance and logistics that go into that. They have significant areas where the two overlap in terms of capabilities with the J-10 usually edging out the JF-17 except that it costs 10-15 mill more per aircraft.

Do you have sources to back that up? I don't think the J-10's raw specifications were ever released.

 

[Kompromat]

PAF won't go for J-10s. To quote a highly influential air warfare expert and policy maker in Pakistan, its time has came and gone. PAF wants to maintain a healthy fleet of up to 400 fighter jets and a sizable support and special mission aircrafts. We will acquire more F-16s to build strong fleet for up to 100 vipers plus 250 JF-17 thunders which leaves 50 units to meet the goal and my good guess is that its going to be FC-31 Stealth platform which will replace our F-7PG squadrons.

The J-10 does have less range and payload than the F-16 block 52. It is what it is. Not sure aerodynamically why but it does. As for it vs JF-17, I am not saying it isnt a better aircraft, but not so significantly that it warrants the added cost of a third fighter type with all the maintenance and logistics that go into that. They have significant areas where the two overlap in terms of capabilities with the J-10 usually edging out the JF-17 except that it costs 10-15 mill more per aircraft.

 

[Daniel808]

 

[Deino]

Sadly only a dumb photoshop-fake ...

 

[Daniel808]

Nice Shenyang J-31 V 2.0 5th Gen CGI

Credit to @cnleio

 

[Beast]

Nice Shenyang J-31 V 2.0 5th Gen CGI

Credit to @cnleio

I think this CG depict the real J-31 V2. Real life J-31 V2 will be exactly the same as this computer birdie.