Saab India Chairman offers Gripen E over MMRCA deal to India

[sancho]

But @sancho don't you think that a manufacturer like Saab which doesn't have as much share of the market as the bigger players do would be more amenable to tech transfers than say Dassault or the manufacturers of the Eurofighter would be ?

In general yes, but it depends on what techs they actually can share. In Brazil for example it is stated, that the ToT / offset offer of Saab was better than the one of Dassaults, but that's based on the fact that the Gripen E is still under development and Saab diverts parts of the development to Brazil as part of the ToT / offset package. Dassault can't offer the same, because the Rafale is aready developed, but they can provide full ToT of techs and system they or their partners own, like the AESA radar or the engine. That instead is not possible for Saab so easily, because many critical parts of the Gripen E are foreign and require approval of the original companies / countries.
So while the Gripen package might be beneficiary for Brazil, it doesn't need to be for India, especially with the RFP limitations in mind (fighter was aimed at 2015/16, while the Gripen E will be available only by 18/19 similar to LCA MK2 that remains to be the main reason against Gripen in India).
For India, industrial advantages of critical techs were important and Saab simply can't offer the same as Dassault and Co, or the EF consortium.

 

[Armstrong]

In general yes, but it depends on what techs they actually can share. In Brazil for example it is stated, that the ToT / offset offer of Saab was better than the one of Dassaults, but that's based on the fact that the Gripen E is still under development and Saab diverts parts of the development to Brazil as part of the ToT / offset package. Dassault can't offer the same, because the Rafale is aready developed, but they can provide full ToT of techs and system they or their partners own, like the AESA radar or the engine. That instead is not possible for Saab so easily, because many critical parts of the Gripen E are foreign and require approval of the original companies / countries.
So while the Gripen package might be beneficiary for Brazil, it doesn't need to be for India, especially with the RFP limitations in mind (fighter was aimed at 2015/16, while the Gripen E will be available only by 18/19 similar to LCA MK2 that remains to be the main reason against Gripen in India).
For India, industrial advantages of critical techs were important and Saab simply can't offer the same as Dassault and Co, or the EF consortium.

Agreed but don't you think that India's current rise as a prospected US strategic partner may give it access to these critical technologies if it plays its cards right ?

Perhaps even teaming up with Saab to develop a Gripen - INDIA ?

 

[sancho]

Agreed but don't you think that India's current rise as a prospected US strategic partner may give it access to these critical technologies if it plays its cards right ?

Perhaps even teaming up with Saab to develop a Gripen - INDIA ?

That's up to the US, not up to India. We are waiting for propper changes from their side and lets see what the current visit of the new PM will bring.

Teaming up with Saab would had been a good choice some decades ago, but not now anymore since they have their Gripen and we will have our LCA.

 

[Astra-2013]

flyway cost $113M ! ! ! rehney de beta ! ! ! you will get eurofighter in that price lol

itne me to f35 aa jayega

 

[sancho]

@jha, @atlssa

It gets more and more obvious that Saab had promised more than they could deliver.The evaluation data of from Switzerland already showed, that the earlier estimates of the Gripen E weight were too low, but latests official Saab specs are even worse:

Source: Technical brochure, Gripen NG, English

MTOW: 16.500Kg
Internal fuel: 3400Kg
Empty weight: 8000Kg
=> Payload: 5100Kg

Far away from the 7100Kg empty and 6000Kg payload they initially promised and that actually would make it impossible to take off with the payload config shown in the picture, if the fuel tanks are full. Either you reduce the weapon load, or take off with internal fuel only and fill the tanks by mid air refuelling again. Performance wise this weight increase must reduce the TWR too, so untill a final Gripen E prototype will be available, the actual flight and load performance can't really be evaluated.

 

[Superboy]

JF-17 > Gripen E. JF-17 has DSI. Gripen E will not have DSI.

 

[sancho]

JF-17 > Gripen E. JF-17 has DSI. Gripen E will not have DSI.

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You can choose which reason fits better for the rating, but your continuous habit to post the same nonsense again and again, is against forum rules!

 

[Thəorətic Muslim]

@sancho @Abingdonboy what are the views of the IAF in relation to the Taja and LCA?

Are they cradling the designs to mold as India's indigenous fighters or willing to scrap it if the Finance Ministry has the $ to buy western fighters?

 

[Yeti]

Gripen has too many US parts and is subject to ITAR unlike the Rafale, plus we have acquired much knowledge in developing the Tejas which can not be bought off the shelf or given to us by anyone and this will help with our domestic industry going forward.

 

[帅的一匹]

Like you Indian members want all those decent fighters around the world.

flyway cost $113M ! ! ! rehney de beta ! ! ! you will get eurofighter in that price lol

Fighter from Europe are damn expensive, India can't afford too many of it even being very fiscal strong.

 

[Yeti]

I do have a soft spot for the Gripen as it is a fighter which has a very fast turn around and can take off from public roads! it also has quite a low RCS level being a small, nimble fighter which packs a good hit for it's size.

 

[sancho]

...

See reply in the LCA thread.

Gripen has too many US parts and is subject to ITAR unlike the Rafale, plus we have acquired much knowledge in developing the Tejas which can not be bought off the shelf or given to us by anyone and this will help with our domestic industry going forward.

True, but so far it was advertised as a propper M-MRCA and even if it remains to be superior in weapon load configs, thanks to the additional weaponstations, the performance issues can bring LCA MK2 pretty close too. So offering Gripen E, makes even less sense, when the difference is so low. Wrt to the US parts, well by the fact that even 140+ LCAs and around 100 Jags will have US engines, I guess IAF is pretty sure about sanctions not playing a big role anymore.

I do have a soft spot for the Gripen as it is a fighter which has a very fast turn around and can take off from public roads! it also has quite a low RCS level being a small, nimble fighter which packs a good hit for it's size.

It is a nice fighter and it would had been great if we could have jointly develop it some decades ago, however that was then and this is now and since we have our own light weight fighter program, we simply don't need it.

 

[Storm Force]

Lca all the way.

And rafale mmrca to be signed this year.

Close the thread plz guys

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

From Wp:

• Gripen NG: improved version following on from the Gripen Demo technology demonstrator.[63] Changes from the JAS 39C/D include the more powerful F414G engine, Raven ES-05 AESA radar, increased fuel capacity and payload, two additional hardpoints, and other improvements.[58][59] These improvements have reportedly increased the Gripen NG costs to an estimated 24,000 Swiss Francs (US$27,000) per hour,[265] and increased the flyaway cost to 100 million Swiss Francs (US$ 113M).[266]

• JAS 39E: single-seat production version developed from the Gripen NG program. Sweden has ordered the variant, with Brazil and, originally, Switzerland to place orders.[74][141][183]

• JAS 39F: proposed two-seat version of the E variant. Eight to be ordered by Brazil.

Where are Your sources, Aviation Week reports flyaway costs of $43M.
New Gripen Aims For Low Cost, High Capability | AWIN content from Aviation Week

 

[janon]

Where are Your sources, Aviation Week reports flyaway costs of $43M.
New Gripen Aims For Low Cost, High Capability | AWIN content from Aviation Week

I copy pasted from Wikipedia, and each sentence in it seems to be sourced. However, many of them are in Swedish:

Svensk Gripen E påstås dyrare än schweizisk - NyTeknik

In any case, my post was not about the costs; it was meant to clarify that the Gripen-E and Gripen-NG are the same thing. That was the point I wished to convey with that post.