SAAB 105 for PAF in the 1970´s?

[lindberg_emil]

Hello!

I am a co-writer on a coming book about the swedish trainer and light attack aircraft SAAB 105.

According to material that I have, in 1970 there were negotiations between PAF and SAAB on purchase of some SAAB 105. A version called SAAB 105PAK was offerred and it was identical to SAAB 105OE, ordered by the Austrian air force.
A contract on 64 SAAB 105PAK aircraft are to have been signed in Karachi. It is also said that Pakistan was interested in license manufacturing of the SAAB 105.
A first batch of four aircraft was to be delivered almost right away. Since the delivery was urgent these four aircraft was taken out of the batch of SAAB 105OE, which was being manufactured at the same time. The sale was approved by the swedish government and an export license was granted. This descision recievede heavy critisism by swedish public opinion and press, and the approval and license was soon rewoked and the contract anulled. It is said that two SAAB 105 by that time was ready for delivery and was “painted i Pakistani colors” and that Pakistan “the day after” bought some more Mirage III.

I have some questions:

1. Which of the aircraft types in PAF was the SAAB 105PAK intended to replace? North American F-86F Sabre, Canadair Sabre 6, MiG-19 (F-6), Mirage III, Martin B-57, Lockheed F-104A Starfighter or Cessna T-37 Dragonfly?

2. Which aircraft type did PAF buy instead of the SAAB 105PAK? Mirage III? How many?



In march 1975 SAAB made a technical specification on a version called SAAB 105P, based on the updated SAAB 105G ground attack version. I have this specification, but nowhere is it stated which country the version was intended for. Because of the “P” it must be a country which name starts with a P – Pakistan? Peru? Paraguay? Phillippines? Panama? Papua new Guinea? Poland? Portugal? Puerto Rico?

3. Was PAF searching for a new (light) ground attack aircraft or trainer (which could be armed) at this time (1974-1976)?

4. If so, which of the aircraft types in PAF was the SAAB 105P intended to replace?

5. If so, which aircraft type did PAF buy “instead” of the SAAB 105P? How many?



Thanks in advance

Emil

 

[Armstrong]

@Najam Khan @TaimiKhan @Hyperion @nabil_05 @A1Kaid @Safriz - Any ideas guys ?

 

[Mani2020]

Hello!

I am a co-writer on a coming book about the swedish trainer and light attack aircraft SAAB 105.

According to material that I have, in 1970 there were negotiations between PAF and SAAB on purchase of some SAAB 105. A version called SAAB 105PAK was offerred and it was identical to SAAB 105OE, ordered by the Austrian air force.
A contract on 64 SAAB 105PAK aircraft are to have been signed in Karachi. It is also said that Pakistan was interested in license manufacturing of the SAAB 105.
A first batch of four aircraft was to be delivered almost right away. Since the delivery was urgent these four aircraft was taken out of the batch of SAAB 105OE, which was being manufactured at the same time. The sale was approved by the swedish government and an export license was granted. This descision recievede heavy critisism by swedish public opinion and press, and the approval and license was soon rewoked and the contract anulled. It is said that two SAAB 105 by that time was ready for delivery and was “painted i Pakistani colors” and that Pakistan “the day after” bought some more Mirage III.

I have some questions:

1. Which of the aircraft types in PAF was the SAAB 105PAK intended to replace? North American F-86F Sabre, Canadair Sabre 6, MiG-19 (F-6), Mirage III, Martin B-57, Lockheed F-104A Starfighter or Cessna T-37 Dragonfly?

2. Which aircraft type did PAF buy instead of the SAAB 105PAK? Mirage III? How many?



In march 1975 SAAB made a technical specification on a version called SAAB 105P, based on the updated SAAB 105G ground attack version. I have this specification, but nowhere is it stated which country the version was intended for. Because of the “P” it must be a country which name starts with a P – Pakistan? Peru? Paraguay? Phillippines? Panama? Papua new Guinea? Poland? Portugal? Puerto Rico?

3. Was PAF searching for a new (light) ground attack aircraft or trainer (which could be armed) at this time (1974-1976)?

4. If so, which of the aircraft types in PAF was the SAAB 105P intended to replace?

5. If so, which aircraft type did PAF buy “instead” of the SAAB 105P? How many?



Thanks in advance

Emil

dont know much but as saab 105 was a trainer aircraft so cant be switched with a main stay figher aircraft ....b-57 definitely not coz it was a bomber also cant be f-104 coz they were retired in 1972 due to lack of spare parts ...neither would it be f-86or f-6 .....most probably t-37 because it serve the same role and as the quantity bought is also roughly the same as with saab 105 mentioned by you

 

[acetophenol]

had the deal gone through paf would have something similiar to HAL Kiran

 

[Mani2020]

had the deal gone through paf would have something similiar to HAL Kiran

we already have our own k-8s with no embargo or spare parts problem

 

[Safriz]

May be someone else has knowledge of the deal you mention..
But another SAAB aircraft was inducted in PAF in early 1970s..Its still in service with PAF and being Upgraded..
Saab Safari or PAF Mushshak

 

[Luftwaffe]

I believe some T-33s were to be replaced. Most likely deal fell through due to Swedish export restrictions and US refusal as the engine were US and we were users of T-33/T-37s. Also saab darken might have anything to do with it.

 

[Secur]

What about the E2 Sentry's for the PAF in the 80's ? Didn't we make that mistake too ? Honestly , I cant even begin to count the blunders done by the planners of the world's seventh largest armed forces !

we already have our own k-8s with no embargo or spare parts problem

Exported to many Arab countries too - A very reliable trainer I must add ... I just wanted to know something , who makes the engine for it at the moment ? Does it come from Sweden or locally made at PAC ? ... I strongly its the latter case ...

 

[SBD-3]

Hello!

I am a co-writer on a coming book about the swedish trainer and light attack aircraft SAAB 105.

According to material that I have, in 1970 there were negotiations between PAF and SAAB on purchase of some SAAB 105. A version called SAAB 105PAK was offerred and it was identical to SAAB 105OE, ordered by the Austrian air force.
A contract on 64 SAAB 105PAK aircraft are to have been signed in Karachi. It is also said that Pakistan was interested in license manufacturing of the SAAB 105.
A first batch of four aircraft was to be delivered almost right away. Since the delivery was urgent these four aircraft was taken out of the batch of SAAB 105OE, which was being manufactured at the same time. The sale was approved by the swedish government and an export license was granted. This descision recievede heavy critisism by swedish public opinion and press, and the approval and license was soon rewoked and the contract anulled. It is said that two SAAB 105 by that time was ready for delivery and was “painted i Pakistani colors” and that Pakistan “the day after” bought some more Mirage III.

I have some questions:

1. Which of the aircraft types in PAF was the SAAB 105PAK intended to replace? North American F-86F Sabre, Canadair Sabre 6, MiG-19 (F-6), Mirage III, Martin B-57, Lockheed F-104A Starfighter or Cessna T-37 Dragonfly?

2. Which aircraft type did PAF buy instead of the SAAB 105PAK? Mirage III? How many?



In march 1975 SAAB made a technical specification on a version called SAAB 105P, based on the updated SAAB 105G ground attack version. I have this specification, but nowhere is it stated which country the version was intended for. Because of the “P” it must be a country which name starts with a P – Pakistan? Peru? Paraguay? Phillippines? Panama? Papua new Guinea? Poland? Portugal? Puerto Rico?

3. Was PAF searching for a new (light) ground attack aircraft or trainer (which could be armed) at this time (1974-1976)?

4. If so, which of the aircraft types in PAF was the SAAB 105P intended to replace?

5. If so, which aircraft type did PAF buy “instead” of the SAAB 105P? How many?



Thanks in advance

Emil

I think a good resource person would be sir Kaiser Tufail (ksrtfl@yahoo.com) (Aeronaut). He would be more informed on the issue.

 

[Manindra]

What about the E2 Sentry's for the PAF in the 80's ? Didn't we make that mistake too ? Honestly , I cant even begin to count the blunders done by the planners of the world's seventh largest armed forces !



Exported to many Arab countries too - A very reliable trainer I must add ... I just wanted to know something , who makes the engine for it at the moment ? Does it come from Sweden or locally made at PAC ? ... I strongly its the latter case ...

Dude, K-8 is chinese licence version of PLA JL-8 not innovation like HAL KIRAN or HAL DEEPAK.

 

[Secur]

Dude, K-8 is chinese licence version of PLA JL-8 not innovation like HAL KIRAN or HAL DEEPAK.

Ahh sorry that would be the Mushak and its successor the Super Mushak , yes they are license produced versions but the important point is that they have been exported to many countries by Pakistan ...

 

[Mani2020]

What about the E2 Sentry's for the PAF in the 80's ? Didn't we make that mistake too ? Honestly , I cant even begin to count the blunders done by the planners of the world's seventh largest armed forces !



Exported to many Arab countries too - A very reliable trainer I must add ... I just wanted to know something , who makes the engine for it at the moment ? Does it come from Sweden or locally made at PAC ? ... I strongly its the latter case ...

why the engine would come from sweden mate? the engine used on K-8 is Garrett TFE731 manufactured by Garrett Airesearch and honeywell aerospace of US

 

[fatman17]

Hello!

I am a co-writer on a coming book about the swedish trainer and light attack aircraft SAAB 105.

According to material that I have, in 1970 there were negotiations between PAF and SAAB on purchase of some SAAB 105. A version called SAAB 105PAK was offerred and it was identical to SAAB 105OE, ordered by the Austrian air force.
A contract on 64 SAAB 105PAK aircraft are to have been signed in Karachi. It is also said that Pakistan was interested in license manufacturing of the SAAB 105.
A first batch of four aircraft was to be delivered almost right away. Since the delivery was urgent these four aircraft was taken out of the batch of SAAB 105OE, which was being manufactured at the same time. The sale was approved by the swedish government and an export license was granted. This descision recievede heavy critisism by swedish public opinion and press, and the approval and license was soon rewoked and the contract anulled. It is said that two SAAB 105 by that time was ready for delivery and was “painted i Pakistani colors” and that Pakistan “the day after” bought some more Mirage III.

I have some questions:

1. Which of the aircraft types in PAF was the SAAB 105PAK intended to replace? North American F-86F Sabre, Canadair Sabre 6, MiG-19 (F-6), Mirage III, Martin B-57, Lockheed F-104A Starfighter or Cessna T-37 Dragonfly?

2. Which aircraft type did PAF buy instead of the SAAB 105PAK? Mirage III? How many?



In march 1975 SAAB made a technical specification on a version called SAAB 105P, based on the updated SAAB 105G ground attack version. I have this specification, but nowhere is it stated which country the version was intended for. Because of the “P” it must be a country which name starts with a P – Pakistan? Peru? Paraguay? Phillippines? Panama? Papua new Guinea? Poland? Portugal? Puerto Rico?

3. Was PAF searching for a new (light) ground attack aircraft or trainer (which could be armed) at this time (1974-1976)?

4. If so, which of the aircraft types in PAF was the SAAB 105P intended to replace?

5. If so, which aircraft type did PAF buy “instead” of the SAAB 105P? How many?



Thanks in advance

Emil

to replace the T-33 jet trainer.
light attack was an option discussed.
however i wrote an e-mail to a swedish expert on this subject. his comments were that negotations were 'preliminary' only. no LOI/MOU was signed - sweden backed out because of the BD crisis.

 

[lindberg_emil]

But another SAAB aircraft was inducted in PAF in early 1970s..Its still in service with PAF and being Upgraded..
Saab Safari or PAF Mushshak

I know about these aircraft. Recently a book about MFI, which originally designed the MFI-15 Safari / MFI-17 Supporter, was published. I have read the book and is also friends with the writer.

According to this book a contract on 15 complete MFI-17, 10 SKD (Semi Knocked Down) kits and 20 CKD (Completely Knocked Down) kits was signed on the 15 july 1973.
This was later complemented with a contract on license manufacturing and another 10 CKD kits on the 30 april 1975.
I wonder, could it have been in conection with this latter contract that SAAB offered also the 105P?

dont know much but as saab 105 was a trainer aircraft so cant be switched with a main stay figher aircraft ....

But the SAAB 105 could be armed with two 30 mm Aden gun pods (same gun as used in Hawker Hunter), twelve 13,5 cm Bofors rockets, different kind of rocket pods (for the 105PAK there was an option for six Engins Matra F2 rockets pods, each containing six 6,8 cm rockets), four 500 lb bombs, two 1000 lb bombs and four Sidewinders (at this time only prepared, not developed or tested).

also cant be f-104 coz they were retired in 1972 due to lack of spare parts ...

But if F-104 were retired in 1972 due to lack of spare parts, could it not have been these PAF wanted to replace? I mean, the lack of spare parts should not have come as a suprise, it would have been a suspected risk already in 1970/1971.

I must add that the 105PAK was offered in november/december 1970. The deliveries should have started somteimes march-june 1971.

I think a good resource person would be sir Kaiser Tufail. He would be more informed on the issue.

Thanks! I will try to contact him

to replace the T-33 jet trainer.
light attack was an option discussed.

According to published stories (in swedish) from very involved peoples at SAAB, one primary aspect of the aircraft that PAF wanted to buy in 1970/1971 was that it should have better turning perfomance than the Hawker Hunter, used by India. Why, if the aircraft should have been mostly used as a trainer and not so often in combat? Furthermore, why was the deliveries so urgent (within a few months) if the aircraft mostly should have been used as a trainer?

however i wrote an e-mail to a swedish expert

Who is this swedish expert? I´m pretty familiar with the most known people within Swedish aviation historical research, but maybe I have missed to contact this guy.

however i wrote an e-mail to a swedish expert on this subject. his comments were that negotations were 'preliminary' only. no LOI/MOU was signed - sweden backed out because of the BD crisis.

Published stories (in swedish) from SAAB (“SAAB memories”, published once a year by the SAAB veteran club) and aircraft magazines from that time tells another story (see below).
One of the writers on the mentioned stories about SAAB 105 claims that he and SAAB:s sales manager vent to Karachi were a contract on 64 SAAB 105 was signed. After they had returned to Sweden tha manufacturing of parts for these aircraft started. Why should he lie about this contract and also publish it? If there was no contract his lie would have easily been discovered by former colleagues and others. This contract is also mentioned by other SAAB employees that have published stories about SAAB 105 in the “SAAB memories”.

But it I agree on that the swedish government (not primarily SAAB – they wanted to sell aircraft) backed out because of the crisis in East Pakistan.

Here are som links to related articles in the Flight International magazine:

Edit: Since I have to few posts I don´t seem to be able to post links. But search for the Flightglobal archive, set the search engine to 1971 and search for SAAB 105 or Pakistan. You should find interesting findings on the following dates:
4 mars 1971
11 march 1971
18 march 1971


I still need answers on some of my questions

2. Which aircraft type did PAF buy instead of the SAAB 105PAK? Mirage III? How many?



3. Was PAF searching for a new (light) ground attack aircraft or trainer (which could be armed) at this time (1974-1976)?

4. If so, which of the aircraft types in PAF was the SAAB 105P intended to replace?

5. If so, which aircraft type did PAF buy “instead” of the SAAB 105P? How many?

 

[Mani2020]

@lindberg_emil

considering PAF only operated a handful of f-104 (12 in total to be precise) there was no reason to replace these 12 aircrafts with 63 saab-105s , also lack of spares supply by US was the aftermath of 71 crisis and came as a surprise so no point was there for PAF to know that in 1970 while negotiating for saab-105s ...at that time the 71 crisis didnt occur ...infact the cancellation of saab-105 deals was too as a result of 71 crisis ...so these both incidents occurred at the same time as an aftermath of 71