S. Korea dismisses Trump's remark that Korea was "part of China"

[Speeder 2]

Correct. Korea had never been part of China but a tribunal state to China. The Chinese classified tribute in different class categories. Korea was first class, while Vietnam belonged to third class. Second were the rest.

The Koreans were treated best, while we worst by the Chinese.

Likely not true.

The Chinese treated Northern Korea and Nothern Vietnam better than the rest including Japan historically.

The fact that China only got herself involved in two serious wars post WW2, one was Vietnam War, the other being Korean War, seemed to demostrate the attitude.

 

[powastick]

https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/...ells_trump_its_actually_never_been_a/dginsqs/

The history between the Korean peninsula and China is way more complicated than either of these statements allow. Both are "correct" and "wrong" depending on the point of view.

In the early history of Korea, the peninsula was split between two kingdoms: Gojoseon (north) and Jin (south). Around 200 BCE, Liu Bang of the Han dynasty had effectively conquered all of China and united it, sort of (that's a rabbit hole not applicable here). In 196, Lu Wan was accused of treason, and his general, Wiman, raised an army. Instead of protecting Lu Wan, in he took it into the Korean peninsula and took over Gojoseon, establishing his capital in what is now named Pyongyang in 194 BCE.

Liu Bang, now known as Emperor Gaozu, didn't like this and he invaded Korea, conquering Gojoseon (northern Korean kingdom). He installed four different commanders to rule different parts of Korea. That lasted for about a hundred years.

After another hundred years, one Korean state had basically conquered the peninsula: Goguryeo. The Tang dynasty invaded and conquered Gogureo in 645 CE. Once again, putting a large portion of Korea in Chinese control (with the exception of the far south).

Then, the Mongols conquered China. Between 1231–1259 there were several invasions of the Korean peninsula, eventually leading to all of the peninsula under the control of the Mongol empire, later named the Yuan dynasty. That lasted almost another century, before the Yuan dynasty collapsed and Korea broke away again. The Ming (China - 1368) and Joseon (Korea - 1392) empires emerged.

While the Qing dynasty was conquering the Ming dynasty in China, they took a detour and once again conquered Korea (1636). Then the British showed up and attacked China (1839-1841 and again 1856-1860), forcing the Qing to sign several one-sided trade treaties. Korea remained connected to the Qing dynasty, even though they gain autonomy once more during this time.

In 1894, China sent a small army into Korea to put down a revolt, which became the pretext Japan needed to go to war against China. The result of the First Sino-Japanese War was China relinquishing control of Korea. Japan then annexed Korea in 1910.

Parts of Korea were part of China for many years throughout history. However, the portion now called South Korea (the Korea in question) was mostly not under Chinese control. China views the Yuan Empire as Chinese (since Kublai Khan was half-Chinese), so for a hundred years, all of Korea was part of China, from their view. Korea views that period as being part of the Mongol Empire, not China. All of Korea was also controlled by China for several centuries, but it was not part of China. So, Korea was part of China and it also wasn't. Depends on your perspective.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

Then you have no clue on that part of true history.

I have pretty good idea about Korea-China history.

Can you tell me during which period is it that you think that Korea was a part of China?

Correct. Korea had never been part of China but a tribunal state to China. The Chinese classified tribute in different class categories. Korea was first class, while Vietnam belonged to third class. Second were the rest.

The Koreans were treated best, while we worst by the Chinese.

Even this is incorrect.

 

[beijingwalker]

I have pretty good idea about Korea-China history.

Can you tell me during which period is it that you think that Korea was a part of China?

Check the maps above

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

Check the maps above

I have checked that.

And at that time Korea didn't largely exist.

The first korean dynasty that I think of is the Goryeo dynasty.

The modern korean state is the direct descendant of the Joseon dynasty.

What is more important is that no dynasty that can be said to be truly korean, has any significant area controlled by a Chinese empire.

 

[Viet]

Likely not true.

The Chinese treated Northern Korea and Nothern Vietnam better than the rest including Japan historically.

The fact that China only got herself involved in two serious wars post WW2, one was Vietnam War, the other being Korean War, seemed to demostrate the attitude.

Do you think I made joke?

There are records of Vietnam tribute travels to Chinese imperial court.

China involvement in Korea and Vietnam wars has to do with intention of China of establishing buffer zones, nothing with friendly attitude to Vietnam. Or Korea.

 

[beijingwalker]

I have checked that.

And at that time Korea didn't largely exist.

The first korean dynasty that I think of is the Goryeo dynasty.

The modern korean state is the direct descendant of the Joseon dynasty.

What is more important is that no dynasty that can be said to be truly korean, has any significant area controlled by a Chinese empire.

It depends on how you look at the history and the peoples, so Trump is not wrong either.

 

[Mugwop]

NK has a territory dispute with China

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

Do you think I made joke?

There are records of Vietnam tribute travels to Chinese imperial court.

China involvement in Korea and Vietnam wars has to do with intention of China of establishing buffer zones, nothing with friendly attitude to Vietnam. Or Korea.

Well frankly, it is not so simple.

In the modern Westphalian system it may seem an insult to present a tribute, but it was not so earlier.

There are many reasons for this:

1. China at that time didn't permit anyone without a tributary relationship to trade with China.
2. Trade with China was profitable for most of its tributaries.
3. In fact the tribute itself was profitable for most of the countries. Since the tribute also had a portion where China had to present (as a elderly gentlemen) according to Confucious rituals present its own gift.

 

[beijingwalker]

Well frankly, it is not so simple.

In the modern Westphalian system it may seem an insult to present a tribute, but it was not so earlier.

There are many reasons for this:

1. China at that time didn't permit anyone without a tributary relationship to trade with China.
2. Trade with China was profitable for most of its tributaries.
3. In fact the tribute itself was profitable for most of the countries. Since the tribute also had a portion where China had to present (as a elderly gentlemen) according to Confucious rituals present its own gift.

China did impose tributary relationship with almost all countries around China, but the ones with Korea and Vietnam is way deeper than that, those two actually adopted everything Chinese.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

It depends on how you look at the history and the peoples, so Trump is not wrong either.

No trump is completely wrong.

The modern korean state and its predecessors were never under any Chinese administration.

I have actually taken the time to read internal court documents in both Joseon and Ming/Qing dynasties.

And you must understand the context here.

Before accepting the westphalian system of countries, China considered itself to be the Middle Kingdom, with the emperor as the son of heaven, who ruled over all.

There was the concept of tianxia, "all under heaven," implying the authority of the dragon emperor over all domains of earth.

Would you then claim that every territory in the whole world was Chinese?

In fact, English were so desperate to trade with China, that they send the Mccartney mission, which happened in the form of a tribute to China.

Would you then claim that England was a part of China?

China did impose tributary relationship with almost all countries around China, but the ones with Korea and Vietnam is way deeper than that, those two actually adopted everything Chinese.

Not only those two. Even Japan, (and at that time Ryukyu)

In fact, there are very funny stories on all three fronts.

The concept of "Zhongguo" "Huaren" etc. was very flexible.

Let's talk about Korea.

Korea was an officially Confucian state under the Joseon dynasty. It had deep reverence for the Ming Dynasty, which it copied profusely.

However, when the Manchus overthrew Ming, and formed the Qing. For some time, (a century to be exact), the Joseon refused internally to accept the Qing, as the Zhongguo. They called the Qing as barbarians internally, and derided them.

In fact for some time, Korean confucianists, started calling their own country as the Zhongguo, because they thought that the barbarians have pillaged everything good about the Celestial Kingdom, and Korea was the true inheritor of everything Chinese.

Similar, thing happened with Vietnam. Vietnamese routinely called themselves the Huaren, and in fact even labelled their country as Zhongguo for some time.

In fact they started calling the Cambodians, etc. the barbarians.

 

[beijingwalker]

No trump is completely wrong.

The modern korean state and its predecessors were never under any Chinese administration.

I have actually taken the time to read internal court documents in both Joseon and Ming/Qing dynasties.

And you must understand the context here.

Before accepting the westphalian system of countries, China considered itself to be the Middle Kingdom, with the emperor as the son of heaven, who ruled over all.

There was the concept of tianxia, "all under heaven," implying the authority of the dragon emperor over all domains of earth.

Would you then claim that every territory in the whole world was Chinese?

In fact, English were so desperate to trade with China, that they send the Mccartney mission, which happened in the form of a tribute to China.

Would you then claim that England was a part of China?

It really depends on how you term Koreans people, their direct ancestors used to own a land much large than today's Korea, there are still over a million Koreans living in north eastern China claiming that's their ancestral land and they have been there since the time immemorial, if that's true ,you can even say most part of historical Korea is part of China even today.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

It really depends on how you term Koreans people, their direct ancestors used to own a land much large than today's Korea, there are still over a million Koreans living in north eastern China claiming that's their ancestral land and they have been there since the time immemorial, if that's true ,you can even say most part of historical Korea is part of China even today.

Well, no.

The korean ethnic group in China doesn't claim that it is their land, or they have been since ages ago.

It is a well established fact that they came during the period of Japanese resistance, and then stayed during the korean war.

 

[beijingwalker]

Well, no.

The korean ethnic group in China doesn't claim that it is their land, or they have been since ages ago.

It is a well established fact that they came during the period of Japanese resistance, and then stayed during the korean war.

At least that's what they tell me, I know so many of them. They fully believe that they are Chinese but they insist that's their ancestral land, they never came from anywhere else.

 

[Zsari]

No trump is completely wrong.

The modern korean state and its predecessors were never under any Chinese administration.

I have actually taken the time to read internal court documents in both Joseon and Ming/Qing dynasties.

One needs to go beyond the Ming/Qing dynasty to see present day N.Korea under Chinese rule. As such it is not legally valid or meaningful, but the statement itself is not wrong.