S-400 anti-aircraft missile systems delivery to India can begin in 2020

[Dr Gupta]

Would have been nice if the discussion was on the missile instead of being sexist.

On a serious note do you know if we getting the higher range missile?

@Abingdonboy what you make of it?

 

[Sven]

Coming back to the discussion
- Would you characterize the purchase - strategic or tactical?

Strategic. Long-ranged missiles and a high-powered radar, it's for protecting critical targets, military and civilian.

People will tell you the system is mobile, and it can move, but it's not a high-mobility air defense system that can shoot while moving, like NASAMS can:

S-400 is a big, cumbersome weapon systems that combines a lot of parts that need time to setup, warmup, sweep for targets and then engage them.

These S-400 batteries have been setup in Syria following the incident with Turkey:

- How much stock can we put on S-400, there is vast division of opinion regarding it's efficacy with Russians hyping it's virtues

A lot of stock. Russia does two things very well. Missiles and electronic warfare, offense and defense. The US considers this to be one of the most threatening SAM systems on Earth.

other parties indicating that it can be countered easily with EW and or saturation attacks which is likely to be the case in major conflict.

Also a lot. Because nations recognize this is a threatening platform and are or have developed hardkill and softkill countermeasures to defeat it. It's susceptible to electronic attack, and it can be overwhelmed too by decoys, jammers, chaff countermeasures, saturation attacks by drones, artillery and rocket fire... there's a lot of ways it can be overwhelmed.

But the S-400 launchers aren't alone. In this photo, also of an S-400 battery in Syria, we can see a Pantsir S-1 that has been deployed alongside S-400. It's job is to defeat rocket, artillery and mortar fire, and low-flying aircraft like UAVs or attack jets and helicopters.

We recognize S-400 is a threat, and they recognize we can threaten S-400. Both sides have measures to lessen the effectiveness of the other's measures and countermeasures.

- Are there other comparable systems in which we have access to in arms market? If not then are there any domestic projects in development.

I don't follow Indian missile defense systems too closely, so I can't answer the question pertaining to domestic projects or developments, but I can answer the first part and the answer is "No".

Unless you're buying Chinese variants, there's nothing on the market that can provide the same capabilities in a land-based system.

For naval SAMS, it's a different story, but SAM development in outside of Russia and China is mainly centered around short-to-medium ranged anti-aircraft missiles like surface launched AMRAAM (See NASAMS) or ESSM and SAMP/T or ballistic missile defense like the medium range MEADS:

And longer ranged THAAD:

Neither MEADS nor THAAD are very capable against aircraft. And SAMP/T, NASAMS and comparable missiles lack range and don't perform well against missile threats.

S-400 combines a bit of both. Capable and long-range anti-aircraft and short-range, and less competent anti-missile capabilities.

- How much areas can one of these system can cover - We probably have around 40- 50 HVT in India.

That depends on where it's being put. How far can the radar see? Are there obstructions that can mask an hostile force in the distance that would obscure targeting or confuse a radar operator, like mountains or trees? Is the missile system on a hill or in a valley that would hamper its sensors ability to track and identify targets at greater ranges.

What altitude is the missile system at? Different altitudes lead to different performances by the missile, same with humidity or dry air.

The Earth's not flat or uniform and there's a lot that can affect the missile and sensors performance.

You'll see all sorts of maps, promotional photos, posts and claims of S-400's 400km ranges.

But that's not realistic given, plus only one missile in an S-400 system has that range and it's for intercepting large aircraft like heavy bombers or AWACS platforms.

- Is it likely to change the military balance b/w India-Pakistan and if Yes then to what extent?

It'll hamper the effectiveness of Pakistani cruise missiles and aircraft, even over Pakistani airspace. It's a potent weapon system that can't be downplayed.

Will it change the military balance? I never suggest anything can because for every system there's an antidote to foil it, but it shouldn't be underestimated or brushed off either.

It's no wonder weapon, as many are extoled here on PDF but certain members of certain nationalities, but it's a damn fine piece of kit too.

 

[Dr Gupta]

@Sven say we wanted to move the missiles to another location, how long is the setup time for such a large heavy system along with all it's sub systems? You think a good few hours? 4-5 hours setting up?

 

[Spectre]

Strategic. Long-ranged missiles and a high-powered radar, it's for protecting critical targets, military and civilian.

People will tell you the system is mobile, and it can move, but it's not a high-mobility air defense system that can shoot while moving, like NASAMS can:

S-400 is a big, cumbersome weapon systems that combines a lot of parts that need time to setup, warmup, sweep for targets and then engage them.

These S-400 batteries have been setup in Syria following the incident with Turkey:

A lot of stock. Russia does two things very well. Missiles and electronic warfare, offense and defense. The US considers this to be one of the most threatening SAM systems on Earth.



Also a lot. Because nations recognize this is a threatening platform and are or have developed hardkill and softkill countermeasures to defeat it. It's susceptible to electronic attack, and it can be overwhelmed too by decoys, jammers, chaff countermeasures, saturation attacks by drones, artillery and rocket fire... there's a lot of ways it can be overwhelmed.

But the S-400 launchers aren't alone. In this photo, also of an S-400 battery in Syria, we can see a Pantsir S-1 that has been deployed alongside S-400. It's job is to defeat rocket, artillery and mortar fire, and low-flying aircraft like UAVs or attack jets and helicopters.

We recognize S-400 is a threat, and they recognize we can threaten S-400. Both sides have measures to lessen the effectiveness of the other's measures and countermeasures.



I don't follow Indian missile defense systems too closely, so I can't answer the question pertaining to domestic projects or developments, but I can answer the first part and the answer is "No".

Unless you're buying Chinese variants, there's nothing on the market that can provide the same capabilities in a land-based system.

For naval SAMS, it's a different story, but SAM development in outside of Russia and China is mainly centered around short-to-medium ranged anti-aircraft missiles like surface launched AMRAAM (See NASAMS) or ESSM and SAMP/T or ballistic missile defense like the medium range MEADS:

And longer ranged THAAD:

Neither MEADS nor THAAD are very capable against aircraft. And SAMP/T, NASAMS and comparable missiles lack range and don't perform well against missile threats.

S-400 combines a bit of both. Capable and long-range anti-aircraft and short-range, and less competent anti-missile capabilities.



That depends on where it's being put. How far can the radar see? Are there obstructions that can mask an hostile force in the distance that would obscure targeting or confuse a radar operator, like mountains or trees? Is the missile system on a hill or in a valley that would hamper its sensors ability to track and identify targets at greater ranges.

What altitude is the missile system at? Different altitudes lead to different performances by the missile, same with humidity or dry air.

The Earth's not flat or uniform and there's a lot that can affect the missile and sensors performance.

You'll see all sorts of maps, promotional photos, posts and claims of S-400's 400km ranges.

But that's not realistic given, plus only one missile in an S-400 system has that range and it's for intercepting large aircraft like heavy bombers or AWACS platforms.



It'll hamper the effectiveness of Pakistani cruise missiles and aircraft, even over Pakistani airspace. It's a potent weapon system that can't be downplayed.

Will it change the military balance? I never suggest anything can because for every system there's an antidote to foil it, but it shouldn't be underestimated or brushed off either.

It's no wonder weapon, as many are extoled here on PDF but certain members of certain nationalities, but it's a damn fine piece of kit too.

Thanks for the detailed reply. I appreciate it. I would like to form following conclusions based on your reply

1. S-400 will not be infallible but it would significantly raise the cost associated with conducting a successful strike.

2. It does provide India with options as our adversaries having limited resources will be able to do far less damage to critical infrastructure in a to and fro exchange, giving us a significantly better success ratio on resources expended basis.

3. Considering the susceptibility to EW and Saturation attacks and limited mobility, it would not be advisable to put these expensive systems close to boarder systems. S-400 is likely to be used to form a defensive bubble around our critical naval installations, airforce bases and commercial centres. As such notions of S-400 shooting down enemy aircrafts inside their own territory are fanciful.

4. Russia is in a unique position to provide such a system to India however the fact that it is supplying the same to China complicates things as China has a bad track record when it comes to churning out copies which might very well find their way to Pakistan.

 

[SR-91]

People, we are NOT BUYING S-400 but upgraded version of S-400 wich will have many capabilities from S-500 like it can destroy and target flying at any altitude. It will be intercept low flying cruise missiles, intercontinental ballistic missile flying upto 23,000 feet per second by using new battle Management Combat System.
Much more highly mobile, new S-500 SAM can be easily networked with existing S-400 and S-300.

The newly upgraded version is also nuclear capable, capable of destroying a cloud of incoming missiles.

It should noted, the S-400 we are trying to procure, will be able to take out enemy satellites and protect our satellites from enemy missiles.

 

[Sven]

@Sven say we wanted to move the missiles to another location, how long is the setup time for such a large heavy system along with all it's sub systems? You think a good few hours? 4-5 hours setting up?

That seems reasonable, but I don't have a definitive answer either. Reportedly once on station, it takes only 5 minutes for the launcher to set up, but that's just the launcher and other components are going to have warm up times too. The Radar, command post, fire unit, each is going to need time to get situated and begin talking to other components.

That takes time and so does moving the system from place to place. S-400 is air mobile:

So add the flight time to the setup times as well. There's no reliable info on how long it takes for the battery to get up and running, so I'd only be able to hazard a guess and I'm not confident enough in my knowledge of the system to make such a determination.

Thanks for the detailed reply. I appreciate it. I would like to form following conclusions based on your reply

1. S-400 will not be infallible but it would significantly raise the cost associated with conducting a successful strike.

2. It does provide India with options as our adversaries having limited resources will be able to do far less damage to critical infrastructure in a to and fro exchange, giving us a significantly better success ratio on resources expended basis.

3. Considering the susceptibility to EW and Saturation attacks and limited mobility, it would not be advisable to put these expensive systems close to boarder systems. S-400 is likely to be used to form a defensive bubble around our critical naval installations, airforce bases and commercial centres. As such notions of S-400 shooting down enemy aircrafts inside their own territory are fanciful.

4. Russia is in a unique position to provide such a system to India however the fact that it is supplying the same to China complicates things as China has a bad track record when it comes to churning out copies which might very well find their way to Pakistan.

Yup, that's an accurate conclusion. It's a damn good system, but not unbeatable and there are countermeasures for it. While self-propelled, it's not a mobile system and takes time to move and setup, so it's best for the defense of critical assets or as a defensive shield for one's own assets. China is a threat to sell Pakistan its version of the S-300 and S-400 system, and according to some Pakistanis here on PDF, Pakistan already does have HQ-9, but I don't take hearsay at face value so I'm not trusting that.

People, we are NOT BUYING S-400 but upgraded version of S-400 wich will have many capabilities from S-500 like it can destroy and target flying at any altitude. It will be intercept low flying cruise missiles, intercontinental ballistic missile flying upto 23,000 feet per second by using new battle Management Combat System.
Much more highly mobile, new S-500 SAM can be easily networked with existing S-400 and S-300.

The newly upgraded version is also nuclear capable, capable of destroying a cloud of incoming missiles.

It should noted, the S-400 we are trying to procure, will be able to take out enemy satellites and protect our satellites from enemy missiles.

Seems... unrealistic.

Source?

 

[باپ]

The clown called Parikar is as unreliable as a horse's mouth.

https://www.rt.com/news/341114-russia-india-sale-s-400/

 

[Dr Gupta]

I think C-17 would be able to fit and carry this system to another location should we wish it.

400 km (40N6 missile) 250 km (48N6 missile)

According to this article and what he quoted we are only getting the 48N6 missile which has 250km range and not the 400km one!

Unless that is covert and due to missile treaties might be given to us on a hush hush basis.

 

[باپ]

I think C-17 would be able to fit and carry this system to another location should we wish it.

400 km (40N6 missile) 250 km (48N6 missile)

According to this article and what he quoted we are only getting the 48N6 missile which has 250km range and not the 400km one!

Unless that is covert and due to missile treaties might be given to us on a hush hush basis.

The 400 km version is only for slow moving and constant velocity targets. Mainly used for high value targets such as AWACS
The 250 km version is for fast moving targets such a fighter jets.

 

[Dr Gupta]

The 400 km version is only for slow moving and constant velocity targets. Mainly used for high value targets such as AWACS
The 250 km version is for fast moving targets such a fighter jets.

Are you sure?

I thought it was just a longer range but yes it is ideal for things like AWACS but also gives you a longer range.

S-400 is presumably also capable of intercepting most medium- and short-range ballistic missiles and cruise missiles. The system can engage up to 36 targets simultaneously within a range of 400 km.”

It is unclear, however, whether the S-400 batteries will be equipped with the 40N6 or 48N6 missile series. The 40N6 missile allegedly has an operational range of 400 kilometers (248.5 miles), although it is unclear whether the weapon is operational in Russia yet. The range of the 48N6 missile is more limited at 250 kilometers (155 miles). The S-400 can purportedly fire three types of missiles at a rate 2.5 times faster than its predecessor the S-300.

The 40N6 missile of the S-400 has a claimed range of 400km and uses active radar homing to intercept air targets at great distances. It can be launched against AWACS, J-STARS, EA-6B support jammers and other high-value targets.

The clown called Parikar is as unreliable as a horse's mouth.

https://www.rt.com/news/341114-russia-india-sale-s-400/

Why you quoting a article that is not recent? this is today's news!

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...sian-s-400-triumf-missile-116051000474_1.html

The Defence Acquisition Council has in its meeting held on 17th December, 2015, accorded approval for purchase of S-400 LRSAM system (Triumf Missile System) along with associated equipment and missiles from Russia. A contract has been signed for supply of five Full Mission Simulators for SU-30 MKI aircraft with a Russian firm during 2015-16.

S-400 has better performance parameters compared to S-300 on account of (i) maximum and minimum target engagement range, (ii) minimum target engagement altitude, (iii) maximum speed of target engaged, (iv) number of targets engaged simultaneously, (v) maximum radar cross-section of targets engaged, and (vi) deployment time.

The five firing units of S-400 LRSAM system are planned for induction in Indian Air Force in 13th plan period (2017-2022).

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Shri N Gokula Krishnan in Rajya Sabha today.

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

4. Russia is in a unique position to provide such a system to India however the fact that it is supplying the same to China complicates things as China has a bad track record when it comes to churning out copies which might very well find their way to Pakistan.

Then India should wait until Russia make S-500 ready and ask for exclusive right for it, if you're concern that China will make copy of S-400 then sell to Pakistan why you still want to buy it?

 

[Spectre]

Then India should wait until Russia make S-500 ready and ask for exclusive right for it, if you're concern that China will make copy of S-400 then sell to Pakistan why you still want to buy it?

As much as I would like this to be true, India does not have the financial heft and diplomatic muscle that China has and such India will always be a second tier partner to Russia when compared to China. Also China and Russia are like two peas in the pond and are aligned in their anti-west interests where as India is aligning itself closely to west.

All the above factors suggest whatever India can get from Russia - China can get it faster and in larger number.

Regards

 

[باپ]

Are you sure?

I thought it was just a longer range but yes it is ideal for things like AWACS but also gives you a longer range.

S-400 is presumably also capable of intercepting most medium- and short-range ballistic missiles and cruise missiles. The system can engage up to 36 targets simultaneously within a range of 400 km.”

It is unclear, however, whether the S-400 batteries will be equipped with the 40N6 or 48N6 missile series. The 40N6 missile allegedly has an operational range of 400 kilometers (248.5 miles), although it is unclear whether the weapon is operational in Russia yet. The range of the 48N6 missile is more limited at 250 kilometers (155 miles). The S-400 can purportedly fire three types of missiles at a rate 2.5 times faster than its predecessor the S-300.

The 40N6 missile of the S-400 has a claimed range of 400km and uses active radar homing to intercept air targets at great distances. It can be launched against AWACS, J-STARS, EA-6B support jammers and other high-value targets.



Why you quoting a article that is not recent? this is today's news!

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...sian-s-400-triumf-missile-116051000474_1.html

The Defence Acquisition Council has in its meeting held on 17th December, 2015, accorded approval for purchase of S-400 LRSAM system (Triumf Missile System) along with associated equipment and missiles from Russia. A contract has been signed for supply of five Full Mission Simulators for SU-30 MKI aircraft with a Russian firm during 2015-16.

S-400 has better performance parameters compared to S-300 on account of (i) maximum and minimum target engagement range, (ii) minimum target engagement altitude, (iii) maximum speed of target engaged, (iv) number of targets engaged simultaneously, (v) maximum radar cross-section of targets engaged, and (vi) deployment time.

The five firing units of S-400 LRSAM system are planned for induction in Indian Air Force in 13th plan period (2017-2022).

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Shri N Gokula Krishnan in Rajya Sabha today.

Don't think S-400 is a reliable ballistic missile interceptor, that feature Is a bonus extra, may work may not work.

 

[Dr Gupta]

As much as I would like this to be true, India does not have the financial heft and diplomatic muscle that China has and such India will always be a second tier partner to Russia when compared to China. Also China and Russia are like two peas in the pond and are aligned in their anti-west interests where as India is aligning itself closely to west.

All the above factors suggest whatever India can get from Russia - China can get it faster and in larger number.

Regards

You are aware it was the Russians who asked India to get closer to the USA so they could benefit from selling nuclear technology to us?

Not everything is black nor white

 

[Spectre]

You are aware it was the Russians who asked India to get closer to the USA so they could benefit from selling nuclear technology to us?

Not everything is black nor white

Equations have changed. Russia and US were most cordial at that time with talk of disarmament and so on and so forth. All that changed