Russian-Indian MTA project frozen — manufacturer

[mkb95]

The Russian-Indian joint project for the creation of a military transport plane has been frozen, CEO of the Ilyushin company Sergey Velmozhkin told reporters on Wednesday.

"It has been frozen as a joint Russian-Indian project," the Ilyushin CEO said, commenting on the development of the plane that is also known as Il-214 and MTA.

The contract on Il-214 has not been concluded with the Defence Ministry yet. "The preliminary design is practically ready. We’ll offer it, but the decision depends on the customer. Experts confirm that there is a demand indeed for such aircraft. We hope to clarify the issue somehow by the middle of the year," the CEO said.

It was reported in early 2015 that Russia and India planned to agree in the third quarter of the year on the pre-contract documentation on the MTA program. The beginning of the main stage of the aircraft designing was planned for late 2015.

According to documents, MTA is classified as a medium military transport airplane handling the transport of a broad range of cargo weighing 20 tons, for a distance of over two thousand kilometres with dirt or paved runways.
The possibility of using the aircraft in high altitude (mountain) airports in different geographical or climatic conditions, day or night, in easy or adverse weather conditions is also being reviewed. As a military-transport aircraft, the MTA is designed to transport and para-drop personnel, cargoes, and technology on landing pads, and to drop off cargo without parachutes from low altitudes.
source - Russian-Indian MTA project frozen — manufacturer | Russia & India Report

 

[Sliver]

what do you mean by "frozen"? as in
- is the design spec frozen and ready to go?
- or is the project stopped altogether?

the above write up talks both ways!

 

[Skull and Bones]

what do you mean by "frozen"? as in
- is the design spec frozen and ready to go?
- or is the project stopped altogether?

the above write up talks both ways!

The design specification is frozen by the manufacturer, the only difference in opinion is the choice for engines for the aircraft.

 

[mkb95]

he only difference in opinion is the choice for engines for the aircraft.

can u please elaborate on that.

 

[Skull and Bones]

can u please elaborate on that.

Russia and India at odds over MTA powerplant | IHS Jane's 360

 

[Indiran Chandiran]

Russia 'freezes' India out of MTA project, to proceed alone as Il-214

Gareth Jennings, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
12 January 2016

A model of the MTA showing the basic twin-engined design concept. Russia has decided to drop its Indian partner and to go it alone with the rest of the project, which it has designated the Il-214. Source: Paul Jackson
Russia looks set to continue development of the Multirole Transport Aircraft (MTA) on its own after Ilyushin froze co-operation with India on the joint project, state media announced on 13 January.

With the preliminary design of the twin turbofan tactical airlifter now all but finalised, United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) will likely continue with the detailed design phase of the Il-214, as it is known in Russia, through to production without Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the TASS news agency quoted Ilyushin CEO Sergey Velmozhkin as saying.

"It has been frozen as a joint Russian-Indian project," he said.

While the report gave no particular reason for this development, it was reported in December 2015 that UAC and HAL were in disagreement over the type of powerplant to be fitted to the aircraft, with the former preferring the PD-14M - a modified version of the already in-service Aviadvigtel PS-90A-76 turbofan as fitted to the Il-76 'Candid' - and the latter wanting a completely clean-sheet engine with full authority digital engine control (FADEC).

"The PS-90 does not have FADEC but the necessity of such a system was not there in the technical specifications initially," the president of UAC, Yury Slyusar, told the Indian Economic Times at the time. "It was added later. The technical requirement [for performance] is fully satisfied with the PS-90 engine.

"So the official status is that we have finished the advanced preliminary design stage over a year ago [and] that has to be accepted by the Indian side. We hope they accept the design and move forward," he added.

The Il-214 is expected to have a payload of between 15 and 20 tonnes and a range of 2,500 to 2,700 km, which will put it in the same class of airlifter as the Lockheed Martin C-130 Hercules (22 tonnes) and the Embraer KC-390 (23 tonnes).

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Lol at HAL. Cant design an aircraft, and then complaint about the dominant partner. First develop the proto. After that change to western engine

 

[dadeechi]

India should give this JV to a private partner than HAL.

 

[MilSpec]

what do you mean by "frozen"? as in
- is the design spec frozen and ready to go?
- or is the project stopped altogether?

the above write up talks both ways!

The scope as a JV project is frozen/confirmed.

Lol at HAL. Cant design an aircraft, and then complaint about the dominant partner. First develop the proto. After that change to western engine

True HAl cannot design aircrafts, it was not tasked to do so, and niether can the domestic market support such project, when every servo has to come from kollmorgon, most tooling comes from US and Germany, most of composite comes from russia, servos, relays, actuators all from france germany and US, daqs are from rockwell and NI, even local contractors cannot build auto claves and we have issue global tenders, there is not local supplier that even builds a mil std rivet crimp head, we cannot design and build such complex projects to the spec of IAF which wants local designs to compete with International players.

And lets not go all crazy on PSU bashing, private sector is equally useless, when the private sector starts building a world class prime product in it's sector, like say Intel, apple, toyota, vw, bmw, hitachi or cummins. I will be the first to advocate such projects in India.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

The scope as a JV project is frozen/confirmed.


True HAl cannot design aircrafts, it was not tasked to do so, and niether can the domestic market support such project, when every servo has to come from kollmorgon, most tooling comes from US and Germany, most of composite comes from russia, servos, relays, actuators all from france germany and US, daqs are from rockwell and NI, even local contractors cannot build auto claves and we have issue global tenders, there is not local supplier that even builds a mil std rivet crimp head, we cannot design and build such complex projects to the spec of IAF which wants local designs to compete with International players.

And lets not go all crazy on PSU bashing, private sector is equally useless, when the private sector starts building a world class prime product in it's sector, like say Intel, apple, toyota, vw, bmw, hitachi or cummins. I will be the first to advocate such projects in India.

We didnt encourage them, till a few years back. Management is worse. LM, Boeing are state entities, still they do show results. They have a liberal policies. Here the people at HAL are trying to protect their jobs and wont recommend harsh measure on themselves to improve themselves.
Maybe in 10-15 years time, Indian companies will design and fly a two seater plane.

 

[MilSpec]

We didnt encourage them, till a few years back. Management is worse. LM, Boeing are state entities, still they do show results. They have a liberal policies. Here the people at HAL are trying to protect their jobs and wont recommend harsh measure on themselves to improve themselves.
Maybe in 10-15 years time, Indian companies will design and fly a two seater plane.

who is them? private comapanies.

If private industry is that competent where are the mahindra, tata and HM, vehicles that are competing with BMW and Mercs around the world. We do not have the infrastructure or the supply chain industry to support such mega projects.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

who is them? private comapanies.

If private industry is that competent where are the mahindra, tata and HM, vehicles that are competing with BMW and Mercs around the world. We do not have the infrastructure or the supply chain industry to support such mega projects.

The government caged their potential, controlled the amount of vehicles they can even produce, rarely gave out licenses to them, and openly supported their own incompetent public sector over them. I dont know how you can expect any sort of completer to come out of that hopeless environment.

But, both Mahindra and TATA post liberation, post restrictions have not only saw a massive growth, but also outlived their incompetent public counterparts like Hindustan Motors and Premier, which couldnt compete with the foreign companies coming in.

Where is Hindustan Motors and Premier?

 

[MilSpec]

OK, I am wrong. Given the oppurtunity Indian private companies will do a much better job than HAL - I am assuming that is your contention.

So what exactly is stopping them now? I am not sure the objective of posting images of car, yes they are doing a good job, but they are no where close to competing out there.

As far as pre-restrictions if anything tata's and mahindra benefited, from the license raj. not the other way around. No one stopped tata's or mahindra from competing in overseas markets, did they now?

The government caged their potential, controlled the amount of vehicles they can even produce, rarely gave out licenses to them, and openly supported their own incompetent public sector over them. I dont know how you can expect any sort of completer to come out of that such a hopeless environment.

But, both Mahindra and TATA post liberation, post restrictions they've not only saw a massive growth, but also outlived their incompeted public counterparts like Hindustan Motors and Premier, which couldnt compete with the foreigner companies coming in.

Where is Hindustan Motors and Premier?

 

[Water Car Engineer]

OK, I am wrong. Given the oppurtunity Indian private companies will do a much better job than HAL - I am assuming that is your contention.

So what exactly is stopping them now? I am not sure the objective of posting images of car, yes they are doing a good job, but they are no where close to competing out there.

They've been in the game since 09-10. TATA for example is doing a fine job, they even bagged their first assembly of a large transport aircraft. Considering they havent been in the sector before the country's existence, being the only assembler in the country, and getting all the contracts like HAL, I dont expect a full competitor off the bat. But they are building capability.

Sikorsky Cabins

Tata Lockheed Martin Modules

TATA Aerospace RUAG Dornier Assembly

Bagged assembly of Cobham air to air probes

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Hyderabad/tata-hands-over-airtoair-refuelling-parts-to-cobham/article7737392.ece

Bagged assembly of Pilatus PC-12

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2014-08-26/news/53243904_1_tata-advanced-systems-pilatus-aircraft-aerostructures

Bagged assembly of Airbus C-295 transports

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/support/2015/05/15/india-hal-monopoly-transport-helicopter-tata-airbus-putin-modi/27359629/

Bagged Apache Module Construction

Make in India: Boeing & Tata announce JV to produce Apache fuselages - The Economic Times

And for Boeing, the private sector is doing a better job for them than HAL. Because they had to flat out cancel a contract with HAL recently, citing poor quality, and is expanding their operations with the private firms. TATA is the one getting the Apache module construction, for example.

Industry sources have indicated that since 2014, Boeing has been expressing its dissatisfaction with HAL’s performance and has moved to other firms to meet its requirements.

Boeing’s decision came after repeated reminders to HAL about its “poor quality” of production, sources said, adding that the US company’s move underlined the need for better strategies by India’s policymakers in order to bolster the order books of defence PSUs.

Boeing has over the last few years shifted its component sourcing requirements in India to private companies — Tata Group, Dynamatic Technologies, Rossell Techsys and others.

Boeing ends contract with HAL over ‘poor quality’ of production | The Financial Express

 

[Killswitch]

Hopefully a competition is held. The C130J could be a great choice for a medium lift cargo plane. if an assembly line was sewt up in India exports could potentially come later.