Russia blocks sale of engines for Sino-Pak fighter jets

[Qasibr]

Yes but a JV with China in producing a helicopter doesen't mean nothing in regards to blocking engines for JF17 does it?

The whole point why engines was blocked is due to sour taste when China copied the SU27 fighter from Russia breaking copyright laws.
Russia wants to protect its defence industry and future export sales.

What I'm telling you is, along with the JV deal on the heli, the Russian State Minister also announced that Russia would cooperate with China in the development of aircraft engines.

These are two seperate things, and this is an interesting development which seems to be of huge significance for the JFT project. China's indigenous aircraft engine industry's made some impressive advancements, they've come a long way, and Russia cooperating with China in aircraft engine development seems to be a very good thing for us.

The WS-13 engine was a much better proposition for Pak, it wasn't sanction prone like the RD-93. The one problem was that the engine had some initial 'teething' problems that the Chinese were working on, and with the Russians helping out, we might get the new WS-13 engines very soon.

 

[amit27]

China has been developing a similar (apparently identical) engine to the RD93, the WS-13. Actually, this effort was aided by Russia for a while, by selling China technology needed for the manufacture of key engine components. Russia wasn't happy about this, because they didn't want competition in the low cost jet engine market. Then again, China has a history of stealing technology it cannot buy, so the Russians tried to make the best of a bad situation. China says the WS-13 is ready for service. The Russians believe otherwise. Building high performance military jet engines is difficult, and China has had problems mastering this kind of stuff. Not that they will not eventually acquire the skills, but until they do, they need the Russian made RD93s. Or so the Russians believe. Officially, China is still ordering RD93s because they cannot produce enough of their WS-13s.


Winning: Russia And China Wait For Someone To Blink


China has a long way to go still to develop this new engine.

 

[Qasibr]

Well that's very debatable. The WS-13's been under development for quiet some time, the TianShan-21 project that it spawned off from, was actually more ambitious than the WS-10A engine used in the J-10 aircraft, and it seems that something based on the TianShan-21 core is in the running to provide a more powerful engine core for the J-10B aircraft, and possibly the FC-20 variant.

WS-13's already had taxi trials a few months back, and it seems like it might actually be pretty close to getting certified. For all the rumours that the Chinese would never induct the JFT, the PLAAF seems pretty interested in JF related stuff, conducting tests on the FC-1 aircraft and then certifying it's design, continuing to develop the WS-13 engine and testing FC-1s with it. We can only speculate about what might happen, when the engine's certified and if/when the PLAAF looks into inducting it(the WS-13 engine would be one of their biggest concerns, they wouldn't want yet another jet dependent on foreign whims due to their sordid history with the RU over such stuf).

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

China is developing the J 10----pakistan the Jf 17---. There is no reason for china to get into the JF 17 until pakistan works out the kinks in the system and similiar for pakistan---waiting for the J 10 B for another 3 years for the kinks to worked out---basically the powerplants.

The year 2012-13 would be the turning point for both these aircraft. That is when they will start to peak and show their true colors.

The interest in the jf 17 has gone in some wild directions---so, is it neccessary for china to be a buyer---not neccessarily---if it don't feel like.

 

[Qasibr]

Hi,

China is developing the J 10----pakistan the Jf 17---. There is no reason for china to get into the JF 17 until pakistan works out the kinks in the system and similiar for pakistan---waiting for the J 10 B for another 3 years for the kinks to worked out---basically the powerplants.

The year 2012-13 would be the turning point for both these aircraft. That is when they will start to peak and show their true colors.

The interest in the jf 17 has gone in some wild directions---so, is it neccessary for china to be a buyer---not neccessarily---if it don't feel like.

Based on the facts we currently know, it's very hard to quantifiably say whether the PLAAF would induct the JFT(FC-1, J-9 or whatever they decide to designate it). So I think you're right.

I just think it's very interesting that the PLAAF continues to conduct tests on the aircraft - after a series of tests the AF "certified" the aircraft late last year(meaning that the design/performance was acceptable to them), then with their continued funding and development for the improved WS-13 engine and testing that on FC-1. An improved variant made it's debut in the 2008 Zhuhai Airshow, and the recent taxi runs make it seem like the engine's coming along nicely.

To me, that level of activity seems to indicate that there is a real possibility that we'll see the aircraft in the PLAAF. I know the J-10 is more advanced, but there's a reason the USAF flies a wide range of aircraft, all suited to different roles and purposes. Using the J-10 as a point-defence fighter would be inefficient, and that's a role the JF-17/FC-1 was designed to fulfill.

In the end, the conclusions we draw from this information is just speculation, it could go either way. Perhaps the Chinese themselves haven't decided, and their decision depends on how good both engines are(WS-10 and WS-13, because currently the Chinese import AL-31[for them] and RD-93[for us] as replacements). Let's hope for the best tho, 'cos the Chinese inducting the JFT/FC-1 would be a good thing for us down the lane.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Qasbir & Mastan Sir,

CAF would be inducting the FC-1 inshAllah as soon the WS-13 becomes operational.

CAF has shown interest in it and are testing the plane with the 6th prototype having all Chinese avionics and communication equipment.

It will be replacing their Q-5s & J-7s also.

Issue is CAF would be needing a huge air force in coming years, in thousands, they can't just keep having huge or heavy fighters for all the tasks, there are some tasks which the light weight fighters can also do, where a heavy fighter would be an over kill if employed and in long run, it would be a costly affair also.

Inside sources are sure that CAF would be inducting them once the engine issue is resolved.

 

[trident2010]

Why not PAF just get JF-17 from China with russian engine with it ? The number will be much lesser than the predicted one and then PAF increase the number of J-10 to match the total number of fighters. Since China also inducting J-10, the engine quality and development speed wont be a issue and it will also make sure that the PAF will be as upto date as CAF for future upgrades.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Why not PAF just get JF-17 from China with russian engine with it ? The number will be much lesser than the predicted one and then PAF increase the number of J-10 to match the total number of fighters. Since China also inducting J-10, the engine quality and development speed wont be a issue and it will also make sure that the PAF will be as upto date as CAF for future upgrades.

Because, it has and will give PAF huge experience in aircraft development as well as aeronautics knowledge. And if this aircraft becomes an export success due to its cost and potency, it will generate revenues for PAF, through which it can fund more crucial programs or induct other deadly platforms.

People sitting in PAF are smart ones and they know very well what our requirements are and what can meet them, effectively & efficiently.

Even when JF-17 was in testing stage, J-10 had been offered, but major problem was engine, if PAF had found J-10 to be more fruitful compared to JF-17, it would have dropped that program and gone for J-10, but it wisely decided to pursue JF-17s as it meets its requirements, while joined the J-10 development bandwagon for a future variant which would be much more potent compared to the early J-10s which were shown and flying, with major obstacles replaced by that time.

Plus, do remember, PAF will not be at 350 combat jet strength for always, if fiscal health permits and with its enemy going with numbers, it will also have to keep increasing its number gradually to keep a less disparity with the enemy strength.

May be by the end of next decade, the PAF strength goes to around 400 or more jets, with 200 JF-17s, 100 F-16s and 100 or so FC-20s or anything like that.

PAF will always keep the hi-lo matrix for its fighters, as it gives it flexibility & cost effectiveness.

 

[Qasibr]

@TaimiKhan The JFT's performance seems to have exceeded the expectations of many quarters. We may just see the jet in PLAAF colors yet, Inshallah.

If you look at the aircraft's potential it really seems hopeful. The single seat variant's good for point-defence, the two seat version (with it's extra space&fuel storage, and the increased range) could be pretty decent in a strike/attack role. The aircraft already has decent maneuverability, and it's thrust:weight ratio would equal or exceed 1 with the new engines. And our AF didn't decrease their specs to go for the Chinese radar, the KLJ-7 beat the Italian product in performance, this means that the Chinese radar&avionics industry's coming along nicely, and is a very good sign for JFT Block 20/2, and other future blocks down the lane.

We'll have to wait and see what happens, but I'm really hopeful on this.

 

[Qasibr]

Why not PAF just get JF-17 from China with russian engine with it ? The number will be much lesser than the predicted one and then PAF increase the number of J-10 to match the total number of fighters. Since China also inducting J-10, the engine quality and development speed wont be a issue and it will also make sure that the PAF will be as upto date as CAF for future upgrades.

I'm not entirely sure I understood your point here. The PAF has already gotten JF-17s from China, unless I'm mistaken, the -101 through -110 serial numbered jets were from China, the -111 was the first one to come out of Kamra. And Pakistan isn't interested in the J-10 that China's inducted, we're interested in a variant of the J-10B(which even China hasn't inducted yet).

China's already actively developing both the J-10 and the FC-1 engine.

 

[mean_bird]

PAF Chief says no problems in acquiring engines for JF-17 aircraft

FARNBOROUGH, July 21 (APP)-Pakistan Air Force Chief Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman has rubbished claims that production of JF-17 Thunder warplanes has been hit by problems relating to procurement of Russian engines and said the manufacturing of the fighter planes in joint collaboration with China was proceeding smoothly. The Air Chief was speaking to media on the occasion of his visit to Farnborough International Air Show where two PAF JF-17 aircraft are on static display.

“There are no problems whatsoever regarding the supply of engines for these aircraft contrary what has been appearing in the international media,” he asserted.
The Air Chief who visited the site where two PAF planes are on display and met the pilots and the ground staff, said he has been encouraged by the positive response of friendly countries who have shown interest in the aircraft.
He said both Pakistan and China have evolved a joint strategy to sell these planes to the interested countries.
The President of China Aviation Technology Import and Export Corporation (CATIC), Li Yu Hai who was also present on the occasion categorically stated that they have received no information from Russia on suspending the further supply of 100 RD-93 engines.

The Pakistani Air Force chief added that China has also manufactured engines for this aircraft which are currently under testing and trials.
“We have to see how far these engines are successfully and then possibly induct them into JF-17”.

He said Pakistan was looking to manufacture around 250 of these aircraft to replacing its present fleet of A-5s, FP-7 and Mirages.
According to Jane’s Defence Weekly, Egypt has launched negotiations with Pakistan in relation to licensed production of these single engine multimode fighter aircraft.
According to the magazine, the Russian defence manufacturers are facing strong competition from China vis-à-vis their MIG-29s which carry a price tag of US $ 35 million as compared to 10 million dollars for FC-1 fighters.
The magazine said MIG-29s are currently competing with FC-1s in an Egyptian tender on the delivery of 32 fighters while the Middle East country is also negotiating with Pakistan.
The Russian Federal Service for Military Technical Co-operation approved re-export of RD-93 engines to Egypt as part of the FC-1 fighter package in November 2007.
While the PAF chief was visiting static display of JF-17, overhead an array of latest Western fighter planes including the state-of-the-art F-22 Raptor, F-16, F-18, Euro fighter Typhoon, British-made Hawke trainer thrilled the crowd with their aeronautical characteristics during the flying display.
Pakistan plans to fly the JF-17 planes at the next 2012 show. In the meantime, these planes will also participate in the Singapore International Air Show next year.
The Commander of the Saudi Arabian Dharan Airbase also visited the site and evinced keen interest in JF-17. As he sat in the cockpit he was explained about its various features by wing commander Khalid who flew one of the planes from Pakistan. The PAF Chief also sat in the cockpit. Air Vice Marshal Muhammad Arif. Project, Director, of JF-17 was also present on the occasion.
Both Pakistan and China have set up a joint stall at the main exhibition hall and has been receiving numerous enquiries regarding the aircraft which has put on display for the first time at an international air show.
The Pakistan Air Force officially inducted its first JF-17 squadron on February 18 this year.
The JF-17 aircraft will be produced in blocks of 50 aircraft each where every succeeding block would be an upgraded version of the preceding block. Pakistan ’s share in co-production of the airframe of JF-17 aircraft would be more than 50%. Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra, has the capacity to roll-out 15-25 aircraft per year.


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so good news that it will perform in Singapore air show and we already know it will also perform at Zuhai air show

 

[Aryan2010]

“We have to see how far these engines are successfully and then possibly induct them into JF-17”.

So if this engine is not successful then what ?? What is plan B ?? Until the russian engines in stock it should not be a problem however after that it is a big problem. He did not comment on the other situation if the test engine was not upto the mark.

 

[graphican]

@mean_bird, Nabil_05 and other informed seniors,

Why is there such a confusion about the price tag? Some mention it 20 Millions, other resources describe it as $15 and now this article suggests $10? Price Tag is not the Production Cost but sale price. Haven't we finalized this price as yet??

 

[TaimiKhan]

@mean_bird, Nabil_05 and other informed seniors,

Why is there such a confusion about the price tag? Some mention it 20 Millions, other resources describe it as $15 and now this article suggests $10? Price Tag is not the Production Cost but sale price. Haven't we finalized this price as yet??

Approx 19Mln per plane is the cost which PAF got in their last contract of 42 JF-17s for 800Mln $$s, this would definitely have the spares and engines cost added in the total contract. Hopefully the cost of the initial batch of 8 would already have been paid.


Export order would depend on the equipment asked by the buyer and other related stuff.

But my view is a 25Mln price tag would be sufficient for both Pakistan and China to have a decent profit as well as for the capability it gives.

So if PAF gets it for 19Mln, the export order would be 20Mln+ or may be more around 25Mln or so. As it would include spare engines as well as spare parts.

 

[Dazzler]

I thought this thread became invalid once the official news emerged that engines are not blocked at all at any stage of JFT development.