Russia and India are negotiating construction of new frigates - CAWAT

[Abingdonboy]

With Shivalik class matured and plenty of private players waiting for orders,this may just turn out to be a pipe dream of Russia.

It's a question of capacity, the Indian shipyards are overbooked for the next ten years so buying off the shelf from the Russians is the only viable choice.

With the fiasco of Vikramaditya and growing interest in indigenous production,such a large scale order outside India for a product possible within is highly improbable.

Vikramditya was a whole different kettle of fish. Yes the Russians have royally screwed India with the past Talwars as they took India's cash to upgrade the Yanter shipyard. However now that shipyard is churning out Talwar class frigates for the Russian navy every year so they would now produce upgraded Talwars on time and on budget.

But if this route is to be pursued these Talwars need to be massively improved particularly on the sensor front, fit them with the EL/M-2248 MF-STAR, a new generation VSR and the Barak-8.

Its nothing new.just a rebranded Talwar class with some minor cosmetic variation and a major price rise.Better to go for P-17A or more Shivalik class than this piece of crap.

The additional Talwars will in NOW WAY affect the P-17A buy and this is still going on but because of capacity issues their construction is being stalled right now.

Then the right thing to do would be to increase the capacity of our shipyards, and also build more shipyards. That's an investment that will bring a lot of returns, both from naval as well as merchant vessel construction.

Investments to augment capacity are going on right now but will take 3-4 years to see the results.

Is the IN desperately short of frigates? Dwindling submarine fleet and dwindling squadron strength of the AF are pressing issues. I don't think frigates are.

The IN needs to expand across the fleet, additional frigates are part of the IN's long term force augmentation plans and if they feel they need more frigates to meet their future needs then who are we to question that?

The subs and SQD strength are separate issues and being tackled independently.

@ayesha.a The frigates are for air defense. If you have 2 CBGs you will need more anti air assets. these ships are for enhancing the survivability to cruise and air attacks.

The destroyers (P-15A and B) are the main anti-air escorts of the IN's future CBGs. The frigates are for augmenting anti-air but more as all rounders mainly focusing on ASW and ASuW.

 

[Agent_47]

MDL is going to build all 7 of 17A.

@ayesha.a The frigates are for air defense. If you have 2 CBGs you will need more anti air assets. these ships are for enhancing the survivability to cruise and air attacks.

Kolkata-based Garden Reach Shipbuilders will build 3 of 17A.

main role of talwar class is ASW not AAW.

 

[Kinetic]

Why we are again going for foreign ships?? while so many indian shipyards are there!!!

 

[Abingdonboy]

Why we are again going for foreign ships?? while so many indian shipyards are there!!!

I've explained why above bro.

 

[surya kiran]

Kolkata-based Garden Reach Shipbuilders will build 3 of 17A.

main role of talwar class is ASW not AAW.

Oh sorry confused the 17A with 15B. My bad.

Yes ASW is the primary role of the shivaliks and 17s, but, they also have a nasty anti air sting. The 15 alone will not be able to withstand a dedicated air attack.

 

[Penguin]

With the fiasco of Vikramaditya and growing interest in indigenous production,such a large scale order outside India for a product possible within is highly improbable.

Blabla . India already ordered and received 2x3 11356 from Russia: quite a succesful deal, not at all plagued like Vikramaditya (which is by no means a fiasco... just expensive)

Its nothing new.just a rebranded Talwar class with some minor cosmetic variation and a major price rise.Better to go for P-17A or more Shivalik class than this piece of crap.

There is nothing rebranded. 11356 was developed on the basis of Krivak III, with Indian input (from P17 program). After India ordered 6 (which you just threw away *** crap, but which are vital to the IN modernization process), the Russian navy also ordered it, with VL Shtil in place of single rail launched Shtil. This is now offered to India (obviously, the Russians want the line to remain operational).But the key thing here is that India has engaged in negotiations, which means there is at least some interest.

@Penguin what is the possibility of barak 8 on this ship?

I'm inclined to say quite slim. But hey, VL Shtil is good, and may be a worthwhile MLU for the first 6. Of interest would be the CIWS choice: the first 3 IN ships has Kashtan, the second 3 have 2 single AK630, just like their Russian counter parts.

 

[Mike_Brando]

Blabla . India already ordered and received 2x3 11356 from Russia: quite a succesful deal, not at all plagued like Vikramaditya (which is by no means a fiasco... just expensive)


There is nothing rebranded. 11356 was developed on the basis of Krivak III, with Indian input (from P17 program). After India ordered 6 (which you just threw away *** crap, but which are vital to the IN modernization process), the Russian navy also ordered it, with VL Shtil in place of single rail launched Shtil. This is now offered to India (obviously, the Russians want the line to remain operational).But the key thing here is that India has engaged in negotiations, which means there is at least some interest.


I'm inclined to say quite slim. But hey, VL Shtil is good, and may be a worthwhile MLU for the first 6. Of interest would be the CIWS choice: the first 3 IN ships has Kashtan, the second 3 have 2 single AK630, just like their Russian counter parts.

Sir,can't we re-configure or in a manner customize these frigates to install Barak-8 missiles??I mean if the Israelis are planning the same with their Sa'ar-5 class corvettes which are no more than 1000 tonnes in displacement then why can'[t we do the same thing with these frigates afterall they are significantly heavies and longer than the Sa'ar-5 ones???
Another question,do you think it would be better for the I.N. to go ahead and purchase the newer Gorshkov class instead of these modified Krivak-V ones??

 

[Abingdonboy]

India already ordered and received 2x3 11356 from Russia: quite a succesful deal, not at all plagued like Vikramaditya

Well to be quite fair the the Talwar deliveries to India where hardly without incident. The second lot ended up costing an additional $100 million and all 3 were delivered 6 months late. Yes not Vikramditya levels of ineptitude but still far from ideal.

Of interest would be the CIWS choice: the first 3 IN ships has Kashtan, the second 3 have 2 single AK630, just like their Russian counter parts.

I see no reason why it wouldn't be the AK-630s again, unless the IN has by then selected its next generation of gun CIWS (for which it is hunting for right now), the Kashtan was found to perform sub-optimally in Indian conditions.

 

[sancho]

Not quite, since the shipyards are still pretty booked with other older orders, so if Russia can supply the ships in timely manner then we might go through with this deal.

Then the solution must be to increase the production capacities and not buy more foreign vessels, because any more of them will automatically reduce the need for more Shivalik class. And how can it be, that we have no capacities to built frigates, but are ok with the licence production of additional SSK's, LPD's and FSS's? Licence production on Indian ship yards yes, building indigenous vessels no?

The additional Talwars will in NOW WAY affect the P-17A buy

Based on? The Talwars are cheaper and at a certain point IN will look further ahead and will say we have enough numbers, we need more capable frigates and will ask for a newly developed vessels, rather than more Shivaliks.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Based on? The Talwars are cheaper and at a certain point IN will look further ahead and will say we have enough numbers, we need more capable frigates and will ask for a newly developed vessels, rather than more Shivaliks.

The P-17As are not simply Shivlaiks but vastly improved multi role frigates. The Talwars might be cheaper but the P-17As will be far more capable and the P-17As are going to happen. If the IN was looking at 7 Talwars then it would kill the P-17A project (for which the final design is being worked on now) but they are only looking for 3 so clearly they are not looking to counter the need for the P-17A but buying time for the P-17As to enter service.

And how can it be, that we have no capacities to built frigates, but are ok with the licence production of additional SSK's, LPD's and FSS's?

This is because those FSS and LPD won't be built in India until the end of this decade (2018 at the earliest) when there will be more spare capacity in Indian shipyards. The IN is looking for a stop gap until their P-17As enter service which will be around 2020 and thus an order for 3 more Talwars made in the next 12 months can be in service starting 2018 and the last one delivered in 2020/1. The IN couldn't start making the P-17As today and aren't.

 

[sancho]

The P-17As are not simply Shivlaiks but vastly improved multi role frigates. The Talwars might be cheaper but the P-17As will be far more capable and the P-17As are going to happen. If the IN was looking at 7 Talwars then it would kill the P-17A project (for which the final design is being worked on now) but they are only looking for 3 so clearly they are not looking to counter the need for the P-17A but buying time for the P-17As to enter service.

More capable or not, they still serve the same purpose in the same roles and when you fill the fleed with cheaper vessels in the same roles and why not just more P17 from another Indian Ship yard, that later also gets a part of the P17A production too, rather than getting more Russian frigates? And we didn't have this offer now for the first time, but hearing it for more than a year, so enough time to increase production capacity in India too.

 

[IndoUS]

Then the solution must be to increase the production capacities and not buy more foreign vessels, because any more of them will automatically reduce the need for more Shivalik class. And how can it be, that we have no capacities to built frigates, but are ok with the licence production of additional SSK's, LPD's and FSS's? Licence production on Indian ship yards yes, building indigenous vessels no?

Sure, but are we going to wait till out shipyard have the proper infrastructure to expand? The entire process of expanding our existing shipyards or build new ones would take a good 2 to 3 years. I am fine with the frigates being built in India, but not at the cost of delays due to lack of capacity where the ships get stuck in backlogs.

 

[nik22]

Blabla . India already ordered and received 2x3 11356 from Russia: quite a succesful deal, not at all plagued like Vikramaditya (which is by no means a fiasco... just expensive)


There is nothing rebranded. 11356 was developed on the basis of Krivak III, with Indian input (from P17 program). After India ordered 6 (which you just threw away *** crap, but which are vital to the IN modernization process), the Russian navy also ordered it, with VL Shtil in place of single rail launched Shtil. This is now offered to India (obviously, the Russians want the line to remain operational).But the key thing here is that India has engaged in negotiations, which means there is at least some interest.


I'm inclined to say quite slim. But hey, VL Shtil is good, and may be a worthwhile MLU for the first 6. Of interest would be the CIWS choice: the first 3 IN ships has Kashtan, the second 3 have 2 single AK630, just like their Russian counter parts.

is Vikramaditya really expensive? I think total cost of carrier was $2.3B. India's first aircraft carrier is projected to cost more than 18000 Cr( ~3B). My guess is actual cost would be few thousand crores more.

What I have read, Almost everything but hull is new on Vikramaditya. Looks like a fair deal to me.

 

[Echo_419]

Yes, but when we don't have the production capacity to meet our own demands. So, the only viable option is to build abroad. And let's not forget Indian shipyards are also not the best when it comes to timely deliveries, so we can't really pull that card. We have so many ships on order currently, and so many in pipeline that we have to look abroad for supplies. The submarines are still running behind schedule also our IAC 1 is also running behind schedule, not to mention that the Kokata class destroyers and their follow on ships are sill being constructed in India. Then we have the replenishment ships and other LPD and LHD that are still in pipeline. This not including the orders from he coast guard.

The private sector shipyards still have a lot of capacity left

 

[sudhir007]

why not convert Kamorta Class corvette into frigate. As it is already around 3400 T and Talwar class is 4000 T Weight.
It more suitable and better for export prospected.
@sancho @Agent_47 @Abingdonboy @Penguin