RSS outfit wants Manusmriti reworked

[TISSOT]

Any ancient scripture which is perceived to be preaching bias against one of our own has no relevance today. The greatest strength of our religion is to accept the wrongs, debate and correct the wrong. It just shows that we are bound to a certain centuries old book like some are. We need to work our way to fix the discrimination against some, we need to impart knowledge to our kids from the books that preaches equality, not the ones that divides us. Dharmics has always done that and thats why we are so.different from Abrahamics!! We should maintain the same standards. I know my words with hurt some but all I am doing ia stating the facts.

Hindu scriptures do have relevance today as they did a few thousand years ago. Which is to establish dharma, teach right from wrong and guide human conduct. However in doing so, the Veda's are the primary source of knowledge and then comes the Sutras and the smriti comes last in the order of hierarchy and importance.

Even the Indian judiciary and criminal code of conduct is inspired by the Yajanavalkya smriti (due to british influence).

Social discrimination is different from discrimination on the basis of law. One cannot impose law to disrupt the social framework, however law can treat everyone equally in its own eyes.

Equality exist only in the soul, not in human traits, strength, character, behavior or integrity. For all practical matters humans are NOT equal, however the law can treat them as equal.

Let us not confuse the law with Natural reality or social reality.

 

[Hindustani78]

Apart from what you have mentioned, there is also Vishwamitra smriti, Laghu Smriti, Brihadyama Smriti, Vriddha Shatatapa Smriti, Bhrigu smriti, Vaikhanas smriti, Utathya smriti, Brihaspati smriti, Kashyapa smriti, Gargya smriti and Pracheta smriti, Kunika smriti and Pushkarsadi smriti, Aupajamghini smriti, Katya smriti, Kashyapa smriti, Prajapati smriti, Maudagalya smriti,
Shankha smriti, Likhit smriti, and Vruddha-Gautam Smriti.

So how many does that make it ?

However the 20 prominent smriti's are,

Manu Smriti, Vyas Smriti, Laghu Vishnu Smriti, Apstamba Smriti, Vashishth Smriti, Parashara Smriti, Brihat-Parashara Smriti, Atri Smriti, Laghu Shankh Smriti, Vishwamitra Smriti, Yama Smriti, Laghu Smriti, Brihadyama Smriti, Vriddha Shatatapa Smriti, Shatatapa Smriti, Laghu Shatatapa Smriti, Vriddha Gautam Smriti, Brihaspati Smriti, Yajnavalkya Smriti, Brihadyogi Yajnavalkya Smriti.


Bhagavad-Gita however is both Shruti AND Smriti. Its a smriti only because it comes under Mahabharat which is Ithihasa.


The various Shruti's are Four Vedas i.e Rigveda, Samaveda, Yajurveda and Athrvaveda with Samhita, Brahmana, Aarnyaka, Upanishads and various Aagmas (including Tantra and Yantra). They are of divine origin and are Author less.


Smriti's is derivative work from the shruti's and is a produced of the intellect of its author or interpreter or divinely inspired like the Ramayana. The various smriti's are Vedang, Upaveda, Upang, Dharma-Sutra and Shastra , 18 Purans, Itihasa i.e Ramayana, Mahabharata (Bhagavad Gita) etc., Commentaries on various Shruti texts by Aacharyas including Brahma Sutra etc. and various scriptures on Darshan Shastra (Sankhya,Yoga, Vaisheshika, Mimamsa, Nyaya etc.)


Dharama Sutra's are derived from the Vedas and in turn the Dharma shastra's are derived from the Dharma sutras.

Apart from the Grihya sutra which talks about common mans duties, there is also Samayacarika sutras which talks about our social responsibilities and relationship with others around us.


Finally Dharma shastra's are not "law or rules of conduct", they are guides to conduct and social order. It only prescribes PENANCE and not Punishment within the social order.

Hindus do not have "Law or Rules" of conduct. The duty to uphold dharma was of the entire society and not only of the Kshatriya. It was a collective responsibility, and power was not vested in a single Authority like the king or the court. The king however had the final say if the matter went up to him.

However for state craft along with law and order, other books were written, like the Artha Shastra which gave details of LAW and RULES of the state.

Its foolish to compare that to a Smriti.


Finally as side note, do not be under the impression that you are "debating" with me. Your know how comes from copy pasting from wikipedia, mine does not.

Eighteen sub-divisions of law, which cover civil as well as criminal law,are the special features of the Manu Smriti and here divine revelation came time to time depending on the situation of those era by selected sages/prophets,on the frontiers of Indian nation of Indus Valley Civilization.

Hindu scriptures do have relevance today as they did a few thousand years ago. Which is to establish dharma, teach right from wrong and guide human conduct. However in doing so, the Veda's are the primary source of knowledge and then comes the Sutras and the smriti comes last in the order of hierarchy and importance.

Even the Indian judiciary and criminal code of conduct is inspired by the Yajanavalkya smriti (due to british influence).

Social discrimination is different from discrimination on the basis of law. One cannot impose law to disrupt the social framework, however law can treat everyone equally in its own eyes.

Equality exist only in the soul, not in human traits, strength, character, behavior or integrity. For all practical matters humans are NOT equal, however the law can treat them as equal.

Let us not confuse the law with Natural reality or social reality.

Not really , British were never part of Indus valley Civilization nor they belong to Indian nation and to be frank the British openly say this. British main goal was to loot Indian nation and divide the people of Indus Valley Civilization and this has led to the death and destruction of Millions of Indian nation.

Revelation 20:7-10
When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Ezekiel 38:1-4

And the word of the LORD came to me saying, "Son of man, set your face toward Gog of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am against you, O Gog, prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal.

 

[The_Showstopper]

Then the fault is within ur community. Your liberals have let RSS/BJP hijack this issue. You had one chance to solve it in 1986, but your liberals didnt stand up then. Secondly I am not a fan of RSS. But on this issue I support them cos ur "liberal" leaders have failed bigg time.

No its not, firstly the problem is not as big as it's made out to be. Society as a whole doesn't look out/care for if the issues aren't big and that has been the case with all communities. Some comparing it with Sati etc are going way over the top. If 1% out the total divorces taking place among muslims is the proportion of 3T's then I don't think many people will be concerned about it. RSS/BJP made the issue look big and hence this hoopla.

Your own women's are protesting, Shia board, Bharat Muslim Andolan started the fight. I dont remember RSS going to court to stop this. The SC asked the center to respond to the cases filed by these organisations and individual womens.

RSS can't be a complainant in this case, you and them very well know that. They may have not gone to court but they did create the hype over it. Made adverse comments when asked for. So don't tell me that RSS/BJP has no major role to play.

Thirdly, all Muslims are covered under reservation. Infact, other than OC, everyone are covered. I dont know if there are OC Muslims (there should be some). But majority of Muslims are already under OBC and SC. If your students are not coming through the system, again the fault is with your community. They chose wrong leaders, wrong imams who are content in seeing Muslims poor to have them as a vote bank. Even if we argue by ur case, majority of Hindus are left wayside by reservations and I have no sympathy for them except the poor ones.

Provide me a source which states muslims are covered under OBC/SC/ST reservations all over India.

If there are Muslim Maratha then they have reservation. Secondly BJP as a party dont promote religious based reservations. They came to power promising religious based reservation will be abolished. PS: I am not a Maratha reservation fan either, as they form a good majority in MH, but I am not a citizen of that state, and its for the people to decide.

Are you trying to fool yourself? Tell me how many muslim marathas do we have? BJP doesn't promote religious reservation. Really? They have created religious tensions all through their existence. When Marathas are given reservation, almost all of them are Hindus. So isn't that religious based reservation? When I clearly showed you that it is only backward muslims who were given reservation, yet you come back with "hey no reservation based on religion". Muslims, Christians officially don't have castes but that doesn't mean they don't have underprivileged. If BJP is so against reservation, why raise a cry when backward muslims get reservation why not every time some community arm twists to get reservation.

 

[The_Showstopper]

Because we dont want "liberal Intellectuals" and Mullahs to deride the faith of 100 million hindus jst because of some passages and use these passages as a shield to prevent reforms in their own community.

We want to say to the Mullahs - yes some passages are bad and we will scrap them. We are very flexible in this. We dont want to be bound by what was said thousands of years ago.

Can you dare to do the same with controversial passages in your text?

The difference between Hindus and Muslims is that Hindus do not follow these laws. The muslim mullahs on the other hand have made more and more conservative interpretation of their own texts and are forcing poor and illiterate to follow these or risk wrath of god in next life or wrath of mullahs in this one. 3 T is just one example. other examples include Ban on singing and music, compulsory hijab etc.

Who's deriding? Just stating facts. If you want to deny the passages, then you have to deny the history of women and lower caste subjugation in your community. Because the history is being true to the content of these passages. Your Sanghi house is planning to deny that these ever existed and you have different tune to play here.

Go ahead and discuss controversial passages in other religious scriptures if the forum rules permit. You don't have to dare me. I am ok discussing it.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

No its not, firstly the problem is not as big as it's made out to be. Society as a whole doesn't look out/care for if the issues aren't big and that has been the case with all communities. Some comparing it with Sati etc are going way over the top. If 1% out the total divorces taking place among muslims is the proportion of 3T's then I don't think many people will be concerned about it. RSS/BJP made the issue look big and hence this hoopla.


RSS can't be a complainant in this case, you and them very well know that. They may have not gone to court but they did create the hype over it. Made adverse comments when asked for. So don't tell me that RSS/BJP has no major role to play.


Provide me a source which states muslims are covered under OBC/SC/ST reservations all over India.


Are you trying to fool yourself? Tell me how many muslim marathas do we have? BJP doesn't promote religious reservation. Really? They have created religious tensions all through their existence. When Marathas are given reservation, almost all of them are Hindus. So isn't that religious based reservation? When I clearly showed you that it is only backward muslims who were given reservation, yet you come back with "hey no reservation based on religion". Muslims, Christians officially don't have castes but that doesn't mean they don't have underprivileged. If BJP is so against reservation, why raise a cry when backward muslims get reservation why not every time some community arm twists to get reservation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_Other_Backward_Classes_communities_in_India#Tamil_Nadu

A simple wiki will let u know that Muslims are reserved.

Even if the diverse percentage of Talaq is 0.1% then it is ought to be banned. Living in a secular country enjoying all benefits then there should be no justification of 1%. Again, your liberals have let RSS hijack the issue. Ur leaders have failed big time.

Shall I need to post the link where AIPMLB appealed in SC for polygamy or triple talaq telling it prevents murder?
http://indianexpress.com/article/in...-court-prevents-killing-wife-divorce-3010683/

As long as these babus are called leaders in ur community then its a game ON for RSS. Reform from within, and there will be no need for others to point fingers at you. Christian community came forward by themselves to change their personal laws. And 70 years have passed, babus want to sit at 700 AD when Islamic nations have wheered past them. More freedom have killed their ability to logic.

 

[SrNair]

Good Initiative .We have to rid those stupid parts from our religious books

 

[Gadkari]

Eighteen sub-divisions of law, which cover civil as well as criminal law,are the special features of the Manu Smriti and here divine revelation came time to time depending on the situation of those era by selected sages/prophets,on the frontiers of Indian nation of Indus Valley Civilization.

What part of what I said, did you not understand ?

Manu Smriti is not the one in use today, even the Parasara smriti is more than 5000 years old.

The part of it which you call "law" is Vyavahara which means "Behavior" and talks about appropriate behavior in society in all matters including Civil, religious and moral.

However the details of the Vyavahara is given in another text called the VyavaharaMala, which again is derived from the smriti but forms a separate text.

It is in this 18 types of Trials are mentioned for providing Nyaya (justice) as per the juristic concept of Dharmashastra and as per the principle of Arthasastra.

So its the Arthasastra which provide the legal rand political Framework, while the Dharma shastra provides the Dharmic point of view to establish dharma while providing justice.


Finally in Hinduism, there is no "divine revelation" , only deliberate pursuit and achievement of enlightenment based on one's practice of Yoga. Anyone is capable of such "revelation" if one is to pursue that path.

Not really , British were never part of Indus valley Civilization nor they belong to Indian nation and to be frank the British openly say this. British main goal was to loot Indian nation and divide the people of Indus Valley Civilization and this has led to the death and destruction of Millions of Indian nation.

Revelation 20:7-10
When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Ezekiel 38:1-4

And the word of the LORD came to me saying, "Son of man, set your face toward Gog of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am against you, O Gog, prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal.

It was the british who framed the Indian law and constitution based on their limited understanding of Hindu laws. Our current constitution is only a modification of the earlier british constitution.

 

[Hindustani78]

Good Initiative .We have to rid those stupid parts from our religious books

Religious books are part of Indus Valley Civilization and are treasure for the Indian nation.

Finally in Hinduism, there is no "divine revelation" , only deliberate pursuit and achievement of enlightenment based on one's practice of Yoga. Anyone is capable of such "revelation" if one is to pursue that path.

All those religious scriptures of Indian nation are divine which have been revealed during different era's.

It was the british who framed the Indian law and constitution based on their limited understanding of Hindu laws. Our current constitution is only a modification of the earlier british constitution.

Actually British divided Indians more on the basis of caste, clans and religion. British in real did more Propaganda on the caste issues and divided Indian nation more and during that time those who were from high status were made more lower by doing segregation.

 

[Spring Onion]

They want to change it reform it or just try to convince people ?

 

[Hindustani78]

They want to change it reform it or just try to convince people ?

While talking about any religion , we should debate without any disrespect and not criticise .

 

[SrNair]

Religious books are part of Indus Valley Civilization and are treasure for the Indian nation.



All those religious scriptures of Indian nation are divine which have been revealed during different era's.





Actually British divided Indians more on the basis of caste, clans and religion. British in real did more Propaganda on the caste issues and divided Indian nation more and during that time those who were from high status were made more lower by doing segregation.

Agreed.
But it should change or reform .

They want to change it reform it or just try to convince people ?

They want to reform it.
Why did you ask?

 

[Spring Onion]

While talking about any religion , we should debate without any disrespect and not criticise .

indeed. what disrespect or criticism or even a debate did you find in my simple question?

 

[Hindustani78]

indeed. what disrespect or criticism or even a debate did you find in my simple question?

Better i will give you one more example.

Fasting is being done by the Indian nation of Indus valley Civilization since centuries.


http://www.deccanherald.com/content/612762/milk-milk-products-only-iftars.html
Mahiraj Dhwaj Singh, national co-convenor (organisation) of Muslim Rashtriya Manch (MRM) for Uttar Pradesh and Uttarakhand, said it is for the "first time" that people who observe roza (fast), will be ending it with a glass of cow's milk.

MRM was formed in 2002 at the initiative of the then RSS chief KS Sudarshan to allow the Sangh to reach out to Muslims.

"Emphasis will be laid on the use of cow milk and other dairy products at the iftars. And, it will be for the first time that such an iftar will be held in Uttar Pradesh," Singh told PTI.

Citing the benefits of cow milk, he claimed, "Even Muslim scholars are of the view that cow milk is good for health and ghee made using this milk is medicine. This ghee is used as base is preparing various ayurvedic medicines also," adding consuming cow meat invites a number of diseases.

He also said that during Ramzan, special prayers will be offered in which appeals will be made to protect the cow.

"All living beings (animals, birds, trees and plants) owe their existence to Allah. If we adopt a humane approach towards them, we will incur His blessings," the senior MRM office bearer said.

"During Ramzan, prayers will be held. A message to end animosity and spread love, bonhomie and brotherhood will be disseminated. Message to uphold the unity and integrity of the nation will be spread. Programmes will be held to pledge for development of the country, while upholding its sovereignty," he said.

Singh also said that MRM volunteers will pledge to spread love and brotherhood. "Let's make a prosperous Bharat. Let's take a pledge to resolve the ongoing Ayodhya dispute amicably," he said.

Welcoming the move of the MRM, Waseem Raini, president of Lucknow-based Pasmanda Muslim Samaj, Muslim organisation, said, "If different sweets such as pedhaa and other edible items made using cow's milk are served during iftar, we have no objections. This will eventually increase the bonhomie and brotherhood between Hindus and Muslims."

***************

Fasting on the day of Arafat is Nafil.

Volume 3, Book 31, Number 210:
Narrated Maimuna:
The people doubted whether the Prophet was fasting on the day of 'Arafat or not, so I sent milk while he was standing at 'Arafat, he drank it and the people were looking at him.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

RSS outfit wants Manusmriti reworked
According to Chand, fresh research should be commissioned on Manusmriti.

Union Minister of Culture Mahesh Sharma (File Photo)
THE RSS’s cultural affiliate Sanskar Bharti is planning to tie up with the Union Ministry of Culture to promote activities that will “correct the lies that people have been fed” about ancient Hindu scriptures being “anti-Dalit and anti-woman”, starting with the Manusmriti, a senior office-bearer of the organisation told The Sunday Express.

According to Amir Chand, joint organisational secretary, Sanskar Bharti, the Sangh outfit believes that people should be educated about “the acceptance that our scriptures teach” through performing arts and awareness activities, such as seminars.

“We are debating the removal of portions from the Manusmriti, which are anti-Dalit and anti-woman and often quoted in arguments against Hindu scriptures,” he said.

“There are some references in Manusmriti where some objectionable things have been mentioned. It should be deleted. We do not support them. We have to see Manusmriti in today’s context. We will suggest to the government that they look into this,” said Chand.

When contacted by The Sunday Express, Union Minister of Culture, Mahesh Sharma said, “We have not received any such proposal. We will take cognizance once we get it.”

Manusmriti is a compilation of rules and regulations prepared by Manu meant for the conduct of a varnashrama, or a social system based on caste. Scholars date the codification by Manu to 200 CE, though claims are made for a much earlier date.

According to Chand, fresh research should be commissioned on Manusmriti.

“We believe that Manu was born 8,000 years ago… There are several versions of Manusmriti, which have been written 5,500 years after his birth and thus the credentials of the authors and their writings need to be questioned. It is a matter of research, someone needs to look in to this,” he said.

Chand said that the scriptures never “promoted anti-Dalit or anti-woman sentiments” and described such interpretations as “propaganda” and the result of “ignorance”.

“Many did not know that Rigveda has 47 richayen (hymns) written by a woman. How can such vedas be anti-woman? It is ignorance about our own scriptures that lead many to criticise them. I can understand that Manusmriti has something wrong, but that can be removed after thorough research into who wrote it,” said Chand.


http://indianexpress.com/article/in...orked-mahesh-sharma-culture-ministry-4654823/

Research should be promoted. I guess that is already being done in Humanities depts in some institutes. But in my opinion Govt. of India should focus on more critical analysis and research on Islamic scripture and its relevance in today's world and bring out the findings in the public domain.

Wow where does it say that 8000 year old laws are being used in 2017. They were used in Pre Colonial India and by the british. All these were abolished in 1950's Today we are in 2017.

I think you tried to open this thread to try and rile Hindutvawaadis and Sanghis. But you inadvertently paid them compliments.

1 You thought we may be angry with books being changed but we are actually very happy. This shows we are pragmatic and progressive unlike others who claim that their books are unchangeble till the end of time and continue to insist on practices written 1400 years ago

2 You thought Modern Hindus follow Manusmiriti then you yourself gave links that these practices were pre colonial and were all changed post independence. Moreover I proved that no one currently follows the Manusmiriti

So on behalf of all Sanghis and Hindutvawaadis

@ranjeet @Nilgiri @911 @SarthakGanguly @IndoCarib

I don't expect any different from self proclaimed 'followers of the One True Faith' (their words, not mine). No illusions. No confusion. Simple.

And all that talk of UCC was just to a way to rile up certain communities.

This I think is an academic exercise which may have policy reforms later. But it may not.

UCC should be the goal in any case.

I am for maintaining status quo in reservations. And I understood long back when trying to civil with you and you never have ever responded me back with same civility. What u have done is bash BJP, RSS for all reasons.

BJP doesnt have Muslims as its vote bank and if womens lose this opportunity, they will never have the evil practise of triple talaq undone. Simple as that...

Yes Hindus havent changed.. But we didnt create an furore by going to SC and looked like an idiot in front of the world justifying child marriages or polygamy... but there are laws which can prosecute anyone anytime if one indulges in it...

And yes... I oppose reservations based on religion... Our champion Ambedkar opposed it... So why do u want it now? U should be the first person to oppose it.... U use Ambedkar only when u wish so

Some people are pissed because their 'Perfect Faith' for eternity is being dragged to the courts by us mere mortals who don't even follow it to bring uniformity in the social equity across all people in the country. Some things never change.

 

[Hindustani78]

Research should be promoted. I guess that is already being done in Humanities depts in some institutes. But in my opinion Govt. of India should focus on more critical analysis and research on Islamic scripture and its relevance in today's world and bring out the findings in the public domain.

Indian Religious scholars and Government Institutions are well aware regarding the importance of religious studies in the Indian Space Research programme and making those researches for public domain would be incorrect because its linked with National interest and National Assets Security of Republic of India.

I don't expect any different from self proclaimed 'followers of the One True Faith' (their words, not mine). No illusions. No confusion. Simple.

We believers are not interested to explain the religious scriptures to those who have occupied our holy sites and holy lands just by adopting religion and here the talk is about old lands which are linked to civilization. We are aware who are Aryans and who were Avataars and Prophets.

Pralaya/ Qayamat is reality which all the Nations Establishments understand but they are certain ones who knows the truth but want to deny it because of which humankind is suffering.

This I think is an academic exercise which may have policy reforms later. But it may not.

UCC should be the goal in any case.

But why believers should say thier policy and let others to control us ?

Some people are pissed because their 'Perfect Faith' for eternity is being dragged to the courts by us mere mortals who don't even follow it to bring uniformity in the social equity across all people in the country. Some things never change.

Traitors do injustice because of thier fake pride that they dont even spare our Kids in the name of racial superiority that they want to murder our kids even before they are born and threathen our kids that they will shoot them.

Indian Military