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Rising above differences!

People who are all for peace do not realise that there are still books in parts of India talking about the greater India in schools and that is a nation which we expect peace from. What you teach your children is the sum of your intentions.
With due respect sir,can you show me even one such text book(from any regional or national board) which actively preaches the idea of a Greater India or Akhand Bharat to the students:rolleyes:!!
 
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I have replied on the other thread. And just to clear things up for you India buys weapons for China now,
Yes, China is a mighty country and it is only logical to arm oneself up against a bigger enemy.
Frankly speaking Chinese 're rivals and not enemies. Our trade relations 've improved by leaps and bounds in last few years, i have always visualized China as a very pragmatic country; China and Japan had a flourishing trade relationship despite sharing fractious diplomatic relations, India and Pakistan should take a leaf out from their book.


So why the lies here, and as far as Pakistan goes, we will not accept the LOC as the IB.
That's fine. India is better equipped to thwart terrorist attacks today, but the question to cogitate is whether fighting for Kashmir till eternity is really worth it???

Keep spending on your defence or buy whatever you want, does not effect a Kashmiri.
Ofcourse!!!
That effects the defence forces and not the Kashmiris living in Kashmir or the Kashmiri pandits living outside Kashmir.

Have a huge occupying force and try and win, it has worked great for so many year. Better yet keep your laws which are similar to Nazi Germany at its worst. But whatever you do does not affect the cause of Kashmir. Post your threads, remember one thing that Kashmir is not going to repressed, the IB is not an option and come what may, there will be no resolution unless you hold an UN mandated referendum there. Till then dream on about peace, but reality is there will be no compromise, not an iota of bargaining, and all the obsessing there is, will not change it.
Do you really know why India and Pakistan are fighting for Kashmir???
I am asking you this because you sound naif and assume that its for the ppl of Kashmir that both the countries 've fought so many wars. Let me list the reasons
1) Rivers- Its a fact that most of the rivers which flow through Pakistan find its origin in Kashmir. According to some reports (on a per capita basis) the availability of water in Pakistan has plunged by almost 75 percent over the last 60 years. India faces a similar situation and both the countries might face a water shortage of as much as 33% in next 10yrs. Pakistan also has objection with the dams on Indian side.
2) If India gives up its claim on Kashmir then we would be left with an exposed Delhi and Punjab, also the fact that soon we might face similar demands from North eastern states, Punjab etc.
3) Silkroute, China and Gilgit (a point which gives China deepest entry into Indian territory); India’s national security over the entire northern frontier would be greatly undermined if we give up Kashmir.
4) An independent Kashmir is not a possibility as it is land locked, so it is bound to depend on either Pakistan or India.

I say you obsess because I see no threads on the other freedom struggles, I see no threads by you on the great murderous game played with witnesses at this time, I say it because I see no discussion on any issue as seriously as you chase Kashmir. Go target Vyapam for instance, I have waited to see a thread on that by you. I waited for a thread on the abuse of doctors by patients and their kin in India, or the Home ministry declaring Nagaland a 'disturbed area' in their words.
I will reply to this part of your post on whatever. thread, because this is off topic.
 
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Why are Indians and Pakistanis fighting like bitches in every thread of PDF today? Hard work week lately?
 
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What you love, what you dont love that does not matter here. It is because you dont have voice. And those whose voice is heard in your country are in no mood for peace.

Biplab bhai

try to be a bit more honest. what you just said is more applicable to the decisions makers in Bharat these days. Sorry to say.
 
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Rising above differences
By Rustam Shah Mohmand
Published: July 7, 2015

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The writer has served as ambassador to Afghanistan and is a former interior secretary

The exchange of barbs, accusations and threats in recent days between leaders of India and Pakistan was as unfortunate as it was unwarranted. The harsh statements containing threats against each other was unbecoming of statesmen representing two large nuclear-armed neighbours. One leader went to the extent of proclaiming that the nuclear weapons in his country’s possession are not just for display, they can be used when necessary!

Such rhetoric, intended for a gullible public, can deepen suspicions with regard to the motives that both India and Pakistan accuse each other of nurturing. More importantly, such unnecessary exchanges of barbs makes the task of any gradual rapprochement leading to a broad reconciliation more difficult, if not impossible — especially at a time when both countries are ruled by leaders who are down to earth and pragmatic in their approach towards improving relations. How tragic that both countries continue to be hamstrung, and indeed held hostages, to the non-resolution of the Kashmir dispute and a couple of other issues, for nearly seven decades and that their trade and commercial relations remain frozen in time. The cost of this conflict to the impoverished teeming billions in both countries is incalculable.

Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi, on the commencement of the holy month of Ramazan, called his Pakistani counterpart to offer his felicitations. That was a great gesture from Mr Modi at a time when it was needed the most and bore the hallmarks of a true leader and a great politician. Hopefully, this small initiative would lead to some form of renewed contact between the leaders of the two countries, as is expected to happen on the sidelines of a summit in Russia this week. The fact remains that India and Pakistan need to put into place institutional mechanisms that are activated whenever there is a danger of the trouble spilling over and mutual recriminations assuming dangerous proportions. Regrettably, track-two initiatives have not created any considerable impact as far as a reappraisal of policies is concerned. Neither New Delhi nor Islamabad has shown any inclination to factor in the vast array of recommendations formulated by many think tanks, after long deliberations, into their policies.

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While the impasse in South Asia persists, the world has moved on.Trade between China and India, despite the many troubling issues confronting both countries, has gone up considerably over recent years. At the same time, East Asian economies are preparing to benefit from the huge investments made by the US and China. Russia and China are coming closer together in a new, robust partnership that some feel may mark the beginning of a new cold war.

On the other hand, pacts and agreements connecting the countries of South Asia remain dormant because the ice just refuses to melt as far as India-Pakistan relations are concerned. Saarc and many other regional forums have been of very limited benefit to the countries of the region, primarily because of the continuing stalemate in relations between India and Pakistan. Politicians in both countries have not only failed to create an environment for better understanding, but also have not created any awareness on the quantum and extent of damage that strained relations have caused to the peoples of the two countries that comprise about one-fifth of humanity.

The huge problems confronting both India and Pakistan are by and large overlooked as both aggressively pursue a confrontational policy in utter disregard of the compelling objective realities that need to be addressed. There is the monumental challenge of alleviation of poverty. More than 400 million Indians live below the poverty line; more than 50 million share that fate in Pakistan. More than seven million Pakistani children don’t go to schools. Millions of people in both countries are deprived of basic sanitation, electricity and access to piped water. India has 60 million chronically malnourished children — 40 per cent of the world’s total. It also has 143 million poor households. Around 61 per cent Pakistanis live on less than $2 a day and 40 per cent of the population has no access to clean drinking water.

While South Asia is home to about half of the world’s poor, both India and Pakistan are spending an awful lot of precious resources on building up and augmenting defence capabilities. This arms race, consuming billions of dollars each year, is wholly incompatible with the dreams and aspirations of the billions of people in both countries, who are impoverished, marginalised and who live in multi-dimensional poverty. When would there be an end to this stalemate and when would the ice begin to melt? Would this situation last in perpetuity — to the dismay of the ordinary citizens of both countries?

As they fail to grasp opportunities and initiate a constructive dialogue aimed at reducing tensions, both countries must prepare for bigger challenges. Both are on course to becoming water-stressed in a span of just a few years. Some experts believe that the threshold might have already arrived. Underground aquifers are fast depleting in both countries. According to latest findings, India and Pakistan are on the brink of a severe drought that will affect humans, livestock, ecology and industry, and would pose serious health hazards. Income inequalities, carbon emissions (India is the world’s fourth largest emitter of carbon), people migrating to urban centres, deteriorating infrastructure and lack of job opportunities are serious issues that would be confronting people and policymakers in the near future — issues that could generate tensions, causing social upheavals in the subcontinent.

It is time leaders in both countries shed their paranoia and engaged in a frank and candid dialogue that not only factors in ground realities, but also focuses on establishing a broad understanding as far as convergence of policies on critical issues the two countries will face in the years to come are concerned. How unfortunate is it that bilateral trade in a region of 1.45 billion people is only around $2.5-$3 billion? How disappointing that there are only three flights a week between Lahore and New Delhi to serve the needs of 1.45 billion people?

This must change. People in both countries need jobs, quality education, better health care, a clean environment, economic advancement, water, electricity, gas, job opportunities, cultural contacts, increased trade, more people-to-people contact — and less hostility, fewer tensions and an elimination of enmities.

Published in The Express Tribune, July 7th, 2015.

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Rising above differences - The Express Tribune

A very thought-provoking opinion piece indeed for both nations...

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What an inspiring piece of reading ! Thanks for sharing this, @Norwegian
 
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You know this is the basic problem for the reason for such article........ You are indirectly putting entire blame on "India"..... And this kind of attitude, we shall repeat our mistakes of past 70 odd years.........

10 times the size, means 20 times the blame.

Please remember, with bigger size in economy and population, there comes more responsibility.
 
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Why are Indians and Pakistanis fighting like bitches in every thread of PDF today? Hard work week lately?

hahaha!

I can't believe the level of unnecessary discord, during my 4th of July celebrations, had my indian and pakistani buddies there enjoying some good o' american style chicken, corn, some roasted lamb, rocking to some country music......

;)
 
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What an inspiring piece of reading ! Thanks for sharing this, @Norwegian

Thank you Nihonjin bhai

The only issue with such articles is that they cannot incorporate complete historical and cultural context within the size requirements by newspaper.

The issue with India-Pakistan border disputes is kind of similar to the island dispute between japan and China.

The only difference?

The disputed territory here has millions and millions of very diverse population.

Hence the issues can never be resolved.

Well "never" is being used to emphasize the point. Hope one day it will be resolved. We as humans should not live with disputes. This life and this world is too precious to live with madness.

Peace

hahaha!

I can't believe the level of unnecessary discord, during my 4th of July celebrations, had my indian and pakistani buddies there enjoying some good o' american style chicken, corn, some roasted lamb, rocking to some country music......

;)

Sadly this happens when people are away from the "pressure cookers" of their own countries. hahaha.
 
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hahaha!

I can't believe the level of unnecessary discord, during my 4th of July celebrations, had my indian and pakistani buddies there enjoying some good o' american style chicken, corn, some roasted lamb, rocking to some country music......

;)

2015 is not going so well. World needs some hope and sunshine. Wish Iran Nuclear and Afghan peace deal works out.
 
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Biplab bhai

try to be a bit more honest. what you just said is more applicable to the decisions makers in Bharat these days. Sorry to say.
Let me be honest. The decision makers of my country who are in power now can not even pass a bill of uniform Civil Code in my country. They are not that much powerful as you think. But in your country's case its the Military who can do anything.
 
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Let me be honest. The decision makers of my country who are in power now can not even pass a bill of uniform Civil Code in my country. They are not that much powerful as you think. But in your country's case its the Military who can do anything.


Biplab bhai jaan

Uniform code is your internal problem.

Dealing with economy by reducing / eliminating military tensions is much easier. Believe you me.
 
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Biplab bhai jaan

Uniform code is your internal problem.

Dealing with economy by reducing / eliminating military tensions is much easier. Believe you me.
Dealing with economy is also an internal problem. Why do you think all our acquisitions take very long time ? Its because we are not warmongering. We always take it like " Ho jayega yaar. Agle din aake dekhte hain."

Regarding reducing Military tension, Bhai sahab it should be done from both the side. One side can not do that.
 
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Again, an angry army general taking "revenge" of his incompetency from the civilian government. :hitwall: I really cannot understand how British Indian Army that later became Pakistani Army and Indian Army evolved so differently....

Can some Indian friends of PDF help me out on this one? @levina @Mike_Brando @Force-India @SpArK
Well in case of India,our Armed Forces have always been superseded by the Civilian authorities backed by our Constitution where in the Table of Precedence the Chief of all the Armed Forces are well below even the top ranked bureaucrats.Another major point is that the chain of command in case of the Armed forces are much more decentralized in case of India Hence,even if they wanted to do something like their Pakistani counterparts they couldn't do that because of this.Plus,after living nearly 7 decades under the civil authority the mindset of our Armed Forces has totally been molded with the essence of democracy.The seed of democracy has penetrated far deeper in the rank and file of the armed forces thanks to our civilian authorities and hence even if an Armed Force chief tries to do a coup he WON'T get support even from his subordinate officers.Its as simple as that and i think all our senior commanders know this quite well:coffee:.
 
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If Kashmiris decide to be part of Pakistan, India won't accept. If they decided to join India, Pakistan won't agree. The solution? Let them remain independent.

India will never ever accept that too. Indians think - and quite correctly, that others will also want to get out of this artificial concoction called the Rep of India. And India is ruled by those who are brainwashed on the Akhand Bharat dream. They want to annex rather than give up.
 
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... reducing Military tension, Bhai sahab it should be done from both the side. One side can not do that.
off course. Sud off course!

Just watch the jingoistic statements from Modi and his clan since he took power.

You will see they have done everything to increase military tensions.
They felt Pakistan is fighting internal war, so it is A-OK to pile more $hit on us.

And India is ruled by those who are brainwashed on the Akhand Bharat dream. They want to annex rather than give up.
Well said.
I call them Indian-nationalist-Hindus or INHus for short.
or Bharati-nationalist-Hindus aka BiHNus.

Many here belong to INHus BiHnu clan.
 
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