Rise of Islam in Bengal, role of migration

[Charon 2]

Türkiye'de hangi şehir Bay Charon geliyorsunuz?

Lol I won't tell you from which province I originally come from

 

[tahsin]

Sorry but just because I'm interested in anthropology and genetics it doesn't make an Indian. No major Turkic and Persian genetical contribution in modern Bangladeshis. Both Genotype and phenotype confirm this. Indo-Aryans were an European tribe? Lol what are you smoking?


The ANI admixture of South Asians comes from these Indo-Aryan tribes. Northern European admixture is non-exist in Bangladeshis just like ANI admixture is non-existent in Europeans.

I don't think you know how Bangladeshis look. Have you been to Bangladesh? Plenty of Bangladeshis show West Asian influence on their phenotype and this is why some of us look different to Hindu Bengalis (but there is plenty of overlap with Hindu Bengalis also). You can always be selective when you show pictures to prove a point. Unless you've been to Bangladesh you won't know how people look. There are too few Bangladeshis on Harappa, so trying to deduce any idea of their genetics, is mute. But even so, as you can see from the graph I posted earlier, the Bangladeshi on there clusters more with Sindhi and quite close generally to Central Asians, so if you were trying to prove all Bangladeshis to be low caste then he would have clustered closer to Gujarati, South Indian, North India (but with a bit of Asian admixture).

Yes, the Indo-Aryans were different to Indo-Iranians, and yes they were related to Europeans. They had their origins somewhere in Russia or that general region, Russians have very high Northern Euro component, Iranians very low Northern European while Lebanese and other middle Easterners have none.

But all said and done, we are not dying to be related to West Asians like Iranians and Turks in any way. Without meaning any disrespect, people in that region of the world are generally uncivilised, violent.

 

[Bilal9]

But all said and done, we are not dying to be related to West Asians like Iranians and Turks in any way. Without meaning any disrespect, people in that region of the world are generally uncivilised, violent.

I'd preface that by saying that I have experienced the lower classes in Iran (and most Arab countries except the Maghreb) to be especially more violent and uncivilized when compared to South Asian or South East Asian lower classes but that is my personal experience. No idea about Turkey. No offense but even some middle-class Arabs are on the rude and crude side sometimes when you compare with Western-educated mindsets like us from the subcontinent...

 

[tahsin]

I'd preface that by saying that I have experienced the lower classes in Iran (and most Arab countries except the Maghreb) to be especially more violent and uncivilized when compared to South Asian or South East Asian lower classes but that is my personal experience. No idea about Turkey. No offense but even some middle-class Arabs are on the rude and crude side sometimes when you compare with Western-educated mindsets like us from the subcontinent...

You are right, I am not sure about Turks, but the entire Middle Eastern region and North Africa people seem not very civilised. They seem aggressive generally and prone to violence, going by experience of them personally but also stereotype.

 

[Not Sure]

I see Bangladeshis in such a hurry to show they have some Caucasian blood in them. Why can't they be proud of what they are? After all, even in India, where products like "fair & lovely" are sold in almost every shop, the dark colored people of the south are considered smarter and more civic than their northern counterparts. And if it were a matter that goes only skin deep, then the whitest of all, the Irish, owe their fairness to the genes carried by these "dark" South Indians.

I would suggest Bangladeshis not to look for such "mixture" of blood, as it may one way or the other, lead to events around 1971. Then again, it's just my personal view.

 

[Bilal9]

I see Bangladeshis in such a hurry to show they have some Caucasian blood in them. Why can't they be proud of what they are? After all, even in India, where products like "fair & lovely" are sold in almost every shop, the dark colored people of the south are considered smarter and more civic than their northern counterparts. And if it were a matter that goes only skin deep, then the whitest of all, the Irish, owe their fairness to the genes carried by these "dark" South Indians.

I would suggest Bangladeshis not to look for such "mixture" of blood, as it may one way or the other, lead to events around 1971. Then again, it's just my personal view.

With all due respect Sir, you may have read this a bit wrong. I personally can't speak for every Bangladeshi - but I am proud of being the homogeneous group of mutts we Bangladeshis are, Caucasian genes included or not. On the surface, none of us South Asians (or even Iranians) look anything like a Caucasian, feeble efforts notwithstanding. I agree that we should be proud of who we are.

Gene diversity (the opposite of in-breeding) has made us Bangladeshis a tad more resourceful and mentally endowed than the average South Asian. I think Bangladeshis in the subcontinent are unique in having a bit of East Asian ancestry which is quite visible in some portions of our population.

 

[Not Sure]

With all due respect Sir, you may have read this a bit wrong. I personally can't speak for every Bangladeshi - but I am proud of being the homogeneous group of mutts we Bangladeshis are, Caucasian genes included or not. On the surface, none of us South Asians (or even Iranians) look anything like a Caucasian, feeble efforts notwithstanding. I agree that we should be proud of who we are.

Gene diversity (the opposite of in-breeding) has made us Bangladeshis a tad more resourceful and mentally endowed than the average South Asian. I think Bangladeshis in the subcontinent are unique in having a bit of East Asian ancestry which is quite visible in some portions of our population.

You do speak well, but like you mentioned, you speak only for yourself. To tell you frankly, I have seen numerous Bangladeshis on this website literally craving one way or the other to find a connection with the Arabs or the Central Asians (Some were even considering genetic testing if we were to follow this thread). I don't say it is right or wrong - it's their body, their life, their view. I only wonder what makes them desire such a connection, because in my view, Bangladesh is one of the richest places when it comes to flora and fauna. Rather, an Arab should be craving to find a connection with Bangladesh where the an acre of soil can produce what even an Arabian city cannot. Same Bangladesh where you find more culture in a town than in an entire country in Central Asia. The thing Bangladesh is lacking, is money. Then again, that's the only thing lacking.

But truly speaking, I have seen this 'phenomenon' quite widespread among Bangladeshis (only on PDF, in real no Bangladeshi mentioned such a thing to me). And I do not see it as good or bad, for me it's cool and one should view the world the way it makes on happy.

And as far as I am concerned, I simply want to understand the reasoning behind it.

 

[tahsin]

I see Bangladeshis in such a hurry to show they have some Caucasian blood in them. Why can't they be proud of what they are? After all, even in India, where products like "fair & lovely" are sold in almost every shop, the dark colored people of the south are considered smarter and more civic than their northern counterparts. And if it were a matter that goes only skin deep, then the whitest of all, the Irish, owe their fairness to the genes carried by these "dark" South Indians.

I would suggest Bangladeshis not to look for such "mixture" of blood, as it may one way or the other, lead to events around 1971. Then again, it's just my personal view.

We are not trying to prove anything of that kind, however, given our history one should be mindful of the fact that we are of diverse origins. Bangladeshis are essentially a homogenous group but with heterogenous origins. With this mind, one should assume various ancestral groupings have been added to the genepool - Indo-Aryan, Dravidian, Austro-Asiatiac/Tibeto-Burman, Turk, Persian.

 

[TopCat]

You do speak well, but like you mentioned, you speak only for yourself. To tell you frankly, I have seen numerous Bangladeshis on this website literally craving one way or the other to find a connection with the Arabs or the Central Asians (Some were even considering genetic testing if we were to follow this thread). I don't say it is right or wrong - it's their body, their life, their view. I only wonder what makes them desire such a connection, because in my view, Bangladesh is one of the richest places when it comes to flora and fauna. Rather, an Arab should be craving to find a connection with Bangladesh where the an acre of soil can produce what even an Arabian city cannot. Same Bangladesh where you find more culture in a town than in an entire country in Central Asia. The thing Bangladesh is lacking, is money. Then again, that's the only thing lacking.

But truly speaking, I have seen this 'phenomenon' quite widespread among Bangladeshis (only on PDF, in real no Bangladeshi mentioned such a thing to me). And I do not see it as good or bad, for me it's cool and one should view the world the way it makes on happy.

And as far as I am concerned, I simply want to understand the reasoning behind it.

Just talk to any Adivasi in Bangladesh and see what their view on us the Muslims. Despite a majority of the Muslims are local convert yet at least 20% of the people are of foreign origin mostly of Afhgan and central Asian.

 

[Charon 2]

I don't think you know how Bangladeshis look. Have you been to Bangladesh? Plenty of Bangladeshis show West Asian influence on their phenotype and this is why some of us look different to Hindu Bengalis (but there is plenty of overlap with Hindu Bengalis also). You can always be selective when you show pictures to prove a point. Unless you've been to Bangladesh you won't know how people look. There are too few Bangladeshis on Harappa, so trying to deduce any idea of their genetics, is mute. But even so, as you can see from the graph I posted earlier, the Bangladeshi on there clusters more with Sindhi and quite close generally to Central Asians, so if you were trying to prove all Bangladeshis to be low caste then he would have clustered closer to Gujarati, South Indian, North India (but with a bit of Asian admixture).

Yes, the Indo-Aryans were different to Indo-Iranians, and yes they were related to Europeans. They had their origins somewhere in Russia or that general region, Russians have very high Northern Euro component, Iranians very low Northern European while Lebanese and other middle Easterners have none.

But all said and done, we are not dying to be related to West Asians like Iranians and Turks in any way. Without meaning any disrespect, people in that region of the world are generally uncivilised, violent.

Okay I think you are a bit confused so let's start to clear up some things: The term Indo-Iranian represents all modern Iranian and Indo-Aryan-speaking people who used to live together as steppe nomads in Central Asia. Then the Indo-Iranians split up into an Iranian branch who migrated to Iran and into an Indo-Aryan branch who migrated to Pakistan, Northern India... The Indo-Aryans got isolated from Iranians and mixed heavily with Dravidian peoples. This doesn't make them European and Bangladeshis are genetically as well as phenotapically distinct from West Asians. Look at the graph again please: The Bangladeshis also cluster closer with South Indians and do you know why? Because your ancestors mixed with them which makes you genetically related to South Indians.

I have actually never seen a more wannabe-white folk in this forum than Bangladeshis. No need to have inferior complexes really. Just get over your genetic make-up

 

[Bilal9]

Okay I think you are a bit confused so let's start to clear up some things: The term Indo-Iranian represents all modern Iranian and Indo-Aryan-speaking people who used to live together as steppe nomads in Central Asia. Then the Indo-Iranians split up into an Iranian branch who migrated to Iran and into an Indo-Aryan branch who migrated to Pakistan, Northern India... The Indo-Aryans got isolated from Iranians and mixed heavily with Dravidian peoples. This doesn't make them European and Bangladeshis are genetically as well as phenotapically distinct from West Asians. Look at the graph again please: The Bangladeshis also cluster closer with South Indians and do you know why? Because your ancestors mixed with them which makes you genetically related to South Indians.

I have actually never seen a more wannabe-white folk in this forum than Bangladeshis. No need to have inferior complexes really. Just get over your genetic make-up

The basics of what you say could be correct but I think @kalu_miah could be a better person to shed some light on this.

 

[AbidM]

I really don't think it's rising. I think it's been in favor of muslims for a while, and even so, we should respect all religions, cultures and creed, after all bengal is more spiritual to hindus

 

[DarkPrince]

Okay I think you are a bit confused so let's start to clear up some things: The term Indo-Iranian represents all modern Iranian and Indo-Aryan-speaking people who used to live together as steppe nomads in Central Asia. Then the Indo-Iranians split up into an Iranian branch who migrated to Iran and into an Indo-Aryan branch who migrated to Pakistan, Northern India... The Indo-Aryans got isolated from Iranians and mixed heavily with Dravidian peoples. This doesn't make them European and Bangladeshis are genetically as well as phenotapically distinct from West Asians. Look at the graph again please: The Bangladeshis also cluster closer with South Indians and do you know why? Because your ancestors mixed with them which makes you genetically related to South Indians.

I have actually never seen a more wannabe-white folk in this forum than Bangladeshis. No need to have inferior complexes really. Just get over your genetic make-up

not all bangladeshis are dark short. migration did happened. come visit dhaka someday you will find out yourself.

by the way you turks are predominantly greek converts

 

[kobiraaz]

A group of Random Bangladeshis from my College

South Indians

 

[kalu_miah]

The basics of what you say could be correct but I think @kalu_miah could be a better person to shed some light on this.

I have had interaction with this so called genetic expert, he obviously is not a very objective poster, but rather driven by bias and prejudice and prone to sweeping generalizations, unlike other Turkish posters I have interacted with. I get the impression that for some reason it bothers him that Bengal Muslims have some Turkic (Central Asian and Siberian) ancestry. I have little interest to engage in debate with such ignorant people any more and waste my time. I have posted many materials from well known historians from their peer reviewed work and the material speak for themselves.

As for genetic ancestry of Bengali's, here are some things you should know:
- Bengali's have an admixture of about 12% East Asian genes from around 500 AD, most probably from surrounding East Asian tribes. This is true for all Bengali's except Brahmin upper caste, who probably arrived later than 500 AD and did not mix that much with lower caste local Bengali's. No other South Asian "Indic" ethnic groups have this level of East Asian admixture. And it kind of makes sense, as Bengali's are the eastern most people among the "Indic" peoples in South Asia and their area border directly with East Asia:
What the Harappa Ancestry Project has resolved - Gene Expression | DiscoverMagazine.com

The level of East Asian ancestry is highest among Muslims out of all Bengalis, which can be 15-19% to as high as 40%:
"Asian" in all the right places - Gene Expression | DiscoverMagazine.com
The jury is still out on how some Muslim Bengali's have such high percentage of East Asian genes. That will hopefully be discovered in the future from more genetic data from Muslim Bengali population.

Note also here that Bengali's are known for rice and fish eating, just like most East Asians. Note also that Altaian Turks, probably the ancestor to all Turks were more East Asians (70-80%) than Cuacasians, unlike Turkish people of Turkey who are only around 10% East Asians on average, showing the small admixture from Central Asian Turkic migrants. Turkish people are genetically more similar to Adyghe or North Ossetians in Caucasus/Kavkaz area than Turkic Central Asians:

- Muslim rule of Bengal since 1200 AD brought in a diverse group of migrants from many parts of the world. I have documented these migrations in this thread. These migrants contributed to the gene pool in the formation of Bengal Muslim elite and middle class, which is the reason why most middle and upper class Bangladeshi look different from lower class, who do not have much foreign genetic admixture from immigrant Muslims and were mostly converted from local population.

Fortunately we have a real expert in genetic field among us Bangladeshi's, Razib Khan, who I have quoted above:
The genetic origin of Indians | Sepia Mutiny
"What’s the biggest surprise from these results? For me I think it is the deep and incredibly thorough biological synthesis which characterizes the Indian subcontinent. We all know that there is a big difference between a Kashmiri Pandit and an Adivasi from South India. But about one third of the Pandit’s ancestry is “Ancestral South Indian,” which is almost absent outside of the subcontinent. And about one third of the Adivasi’s ancestry is “Ancestral North Indian,” which connects this individual with the populations which span the Atlantic, to the Urals, to the Sahara. The past is a strange and mysterious land. But the veil of ignorance is slowly lifting…."

Since Razib Khan did not grow up in Bangladesh (probably grew up in the US), I suspect he also lacks real extensive first hand experience about how Bengali middle and upper class actually look. So take his assumptions with some grain of salt as well. But considering his expertise and interest in this area, he will be a good person to work with in the future to come up with an accurate picture of genetic history of Muslim Bengali's, if he can work with teams from Bangladeshi universities and medical institutions.