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Revisiting the tragedy of December 1971

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Only 23000 soldiers rest were civilians and Govt officers.

@Indus Pakistan @Joe Shearer

I personally thanked Mrs. Indira and Field Marshal Sam because they made us fearless since 1947 we have fear of losing Bangladesh, How can you defend a country which is roughly 1500 miles away with no land contact to main land.....As per Field Marshal Sam in that situation he is able to defeat even US forces when asked what if he joined Pakistani forces back in 1947 and have to defend Dhaka in 1971? He replied even he can't save....Problem is not forces but blockade from main land.....

For Pakistani army Bangladesh was a loose item and even before India there were thoughts of liberating it.

Cont....
Looks like by cutting off BD they have lost the trump card....

Every Sher has a Khair associated with it....

Moreover, BD doesn't have Deep State/Nation type folks!!! They're too shallow for the strategic games by the folks with Deep Imperial pasts!!! For example, even weed smoking, sandal wearing, matriarchal Burmese Army is like too much for them...

Even the founding fathers of Pak fathomed that BD folks can't be part of the Pak!!! According to Ibn-i Haldun, geography is fortune/fate!!! The geography of BD is such that it has made them neither Hindus nor Muslims!!!! Now, look at the following statements from their politicians with Muslim names:

We are nether Muslims nor Hindus - BD's ruling party's general secretary

Thanks to Goddess Durga's coming to the Earth on an elephant, we have had a good harvest - BD PM Hasina

As for the Aklman, no further Isharet is required....
 
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Just googled it. The 1st report has NEVER been published or released to anyone. Most of the other report on the net is the testimionials of 12 Pakistani soldiers who were POWs. They in NO WAY claim or insinuate the PA killed 3 million bengalis and raped 10 million bengali women in 1971.
Even BD's own report, done during Mujib's time, put the figure at 230K!!!! The US's own Civil War cost 620K!!! By the by, the real victims were the Muhajir folks!!! Around 1m of them were killed!!! Not to mention the raping, maiming etc.!!! Once a Muhajir home was raided not a single folk - men, women, kids, babies, old - could come out alive after being subjected to unspeakable tortures!!! Communities after communities simply vanished!!! The situation was so terrible the Pak authorities put a dead stop to any info passing into the West Pak for they feared not a single Bengali folk would be kept alive there....

*I think an Indian historian from the Harvard who happened to be the grand-daughter of Subas Bose, an Indian Nationalist leader in true sense who physically fought against the British, depicted those terrors in a book. According to her, material evidences proved that the most of the pictures depicting the dead during the East Pak debacle in fact were those of the Muhajir folks!!! Pak Army action to put a stop to it came too late and was too little....

**During Mujib's rule, 1m BD folks perished in a famine!! And, Mujib himself killed 40K of the most hard core Mukti Bahini terrorists, who were instrumental in the ethnic cleansing of the Muhajirs and later rebelled against Mujib for not getting an expected share in the power and wealth. They started in pillaging and terrorizing BD folks themselves! Ilahi Adalet...
 
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Only 23000 soldiers rest were civilians and Govt officers.

Whatever figure you want, 23, 230, 2300, 23000 to assuage your ego as you 'fight' here, facts and Orbat of your forces in Eastern Command in 1971 have a different force disposition. So I guess people just disappeared.

Just posting Pakistani sourced and referenced information & links:

Ballpark, I re-quote my post:


Now let us examine the troops strength:


01 x Infantry Division i.e. 14th Infantry Division

Composition:

1. 57th infantry brigade (under Brig. Jahanzab Arbab) - Dacca
2. 53rd (Brig. Iqbal Shafi) - Comilla
3. 23rd (Brig. Abdullah Khan Malik) - Rangpur
4. 107th (Brig. A.R. Durrani) - Jessore

Units:
12 x Infantry Battalions (912 men each)
05 x Artillery Units
3rd Commando
Light Anti-aircraft Regiment
29th Cavalry

PAF

20 x F-86
03 x T33
04 x Mi8
04 x Allouette III
C-130s attached later

PN

PNS Rajshai
PNS Jessore
PNS Comilla
PNS Sylhet

Additional forces:

1, 2, 3, 4, 8 and 9 alongwith 10 (training) East Bengal Regiment - regular infantry units attached with Brigades


East Pakistan Rifles - strength 15000 (replaced by EPCAF with 17 Wings, 7 Sectors estimated strength of 20000)
East Bengal Police Forces (numbers not known)


Additional Forces flown in:

9th Infantry Division with 27, 313 and 117 Infantry Brigade
16th Infantry Division with 34 and 205 Infantry Brigade with total of 16 Infantry Units

Additionally 02 wings each of East Pakistan Civil Armed Force, West Pakistan Rangers, Tochi and Thal Scouts
Civil Police Force from West Pakistan about 5000, Razakaars about 40,000 odd and Al-Badr, Al-Shams of Jamat-i-Islami of another couple of 1000s.


Approximate Strength of 45000 regular army troops (for the standard Infantry Division here, not taking into account naval and air strength), 95000 of Paramilitary Forces intermixed with Police and Irregular forces.


Links for you to go through:

Posted by a Pakistani member.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/learn-from-history-failures-of-pakistan-army.28276/page-2

Another to elaborate more on Orbat:

https://www.revolvy.com/page/Pakistan-Army-order-of-battle,-December-1971

And well referenced Orbat from Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Army_order_of_battle,_December_1971


Now go figure.

Of course like Indus Pakistan took pains to explain there were pets too, you can have ghouls and artificats in POW list rather than your own fighting strength and feel good about 'how you beat Indians' by conjuring figures and facts from thin air.

Go through the post here, not one of you can challenge the veracity of your army's ORBAT. Not one. Keep making figures

I have not even included the ad-hoc formations raised. Or commented on the oversized brigades of the three divisions I have mentioned. :)


This is just at the bare minimum that I can post figures ... keep re-inventing, re-writing, photoshopping and reducing the level of discourse to try and prove a non-existent point/buffer an untenable position. Other than you and your types, you do not fool anyone.

Who am I to deny your right to being ignorant?
 
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fighting strength
The total number of PA troops was no more then 55,000. That about covers two infantry [20,000 typical per division] and few extra formations attached. It is worth noting most of the heavy equipment of one infantry division was left behind on account of the fact that it was transported by air. PAF strength was negligble. It is also worth mentioning here that Indian Army was supported by a supportive Bangla population [which worked the other way with PA] and at least 150,000 Mukhti Bahini.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukti_Bahini


79BoHxs.png
 
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What happened on the western front where you had the advantage?How did you despite having numbers and armour get crushed at basantar and longewala?
"Cough" "cough" Chamb.
 
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The total number of PA troops was no more then 55,000. That about covers two infantry [20,000 typical per division] and few extra formations attached.


Dear Mr. Ali

Like I said earlier:

" ...facts and Orbat of your forces in Eastern Command in 1971 have a different force disposition. So I guess people just disappeared."


What can be said, all your officers who fought in the war, must have been exaggerating the numbers of formations, lying about the strength that they actually had, and the co-opting of troops from Paramilitary Forces, Scouts, Police Forces?


Rest of your post? We are talking numbers taken as POWs (recall my original post to you), right? Who cares about heavy equipment being present or not?



Your formations are nicely enumerated here, from Pakistani references:

https://www.revolvy.com/page/Pakistan-Army-order-of-battle,-December-1971


3rd Infantry Division - Jessore - GOC Maj Gen Shaukat Riaz
16th Infantry Division - Bogra - GOC Maj Gen Nazar Hussain Shah
14 Infantry Division - Dhaka -GOC Maj Gen Rahim Khan

That is three divisions, full fledged, at the start of Op Searchlight :lol:

So, your "two divisions" is out.

In December 1971,just prior to onset of war:

Regular Infantry Divisions:

3rd Infantry Division
16th Infantry Division
14th Infantry Division

(Approximately 15000 x 3 = 45000 troops)

Additional Military Forces:

36th Ad hoc Infantry Division
- under Major General Muhammad Jamshed HQ Dhaka Area of Operation: Dhaka, Tangail and Mymensingh district;
Troops -
93 Infantry Brigade: Brig Abdul Qadir Khan HQ Mymensingh
  • 83 Independent. Mortar battery
  • 31 Baluch – Jamalpur
  • 33 Punjab – Mymensingh
  • 71 Wing WPR – Kishorganj
  • 70 Wing WPR – Bijaipur
39th ad hoc Infantry Division - under Maj. Gen. Rahim Khan (replaced by Brig. Mian Mansoor)

Troops:

117th Infantry Brigade (Comilla) : Brig. Sheikh M.H. Atif with 30 Punjab – Saldanadi, 25th Frontier Force – Mainamati and 12th Azad Kashmir – Comilla; 53rd Field Artillery – Comilla

(that is a full fledged Brigade Group)


53rde Infantry Brigade (Feni): Brig. Aslam Niazi with 15th Baluch – Belonia, 39th Baluch – Laksham, 23rd Punjab – Mean Bazar, 21 Azad Kashmir – Laksham

(that is a Brigade +)

91st Ad hoc Brigade (Ramgarh)
: Brig. Mian Taskeenuddin HQ Chittagong with 24th Frontier Force – Ramgarh, Chakma and Mizo troops EPCAF 11th and 14th Wings

(that is troop strength of a Brigade at least)

97th Independent Brigade (Chittagong)
: Brig. Ata Mohd. Khan Malik with 48th Baluch – Chittagong, 2 SSG Commando – Rangamati, 60th Wing Rangers – Ramgarh, 61st Wing Rangers – Cox’s Bazar , 46th Light Air Defence Battery


A general disposition as under:

Banoob71.PNG


Courtesy - Wikipedia


All, of course, to be read in conjunction with Article 43 of the Additional Protocol of Geneva Convention which deals with definition of Combatant & Prisoner of War status as under:

Article 43 — Armed forces

1. The armed forces of a Party to a conflict consist of all organized armed forces, groups and units which are under a command responsible to that Party for the conduct of its subordinates, even if that Party is represented by a government or an authority not recognized by an adverse Party. Such armed forces shall be subject to an internal disciplinary system which, inter alia, shall enforce compliance with the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict.

2. Members of the armed forces of a Party to a conflict (other than medical personnel and chaplains covered by Article 33 of the Third Convention) are combatants, that is to say, they have the right to participate directly in hostilities.

3. Whenever a Party to a conflict incorporates a paramilitary or armed law enforcement agency into its armed forces it shall so notify the other Parties to the conflict.



But, hey, like I said earlier, create a figure and try hard to mainstream it, for
" ...facts and Orbat of your forces in Eastern Command in 1971 have a different force disposition. So I guess people just disappeared."



@The Eagle Refer conversation the other day. 1971 is still far from being won yet on PDF ;)

@Dubious you can mark this a negative too (as all were positive contributions from every Pakistani member adding to an informed and conducive discussion :D) as @Basel was kind enough to point out, to quote him:

@waz @The Eagle please send this guy to his place, as this so called Eisenstein thinks he knows everything about East Pakistan and creation of BD. He is just defaming Pakistan and that is his agenda.

@Joe Shearer I just could not resist!
 
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Dear Mr. Ali

Like I said earlier:

" ...facts and Orbat of your forces in Eastern Command in 1971 have a different force disposition. So I guess people just disappeared."


What can be said, all your officers who fought in the war, must have been exaggerating the numbers of formations, lying about the strength that they actually had, and the co-opting of troops from Paramilitary Forces, Scouts, Police Forces?


Rest of your post? We are talking numbers taken as POWs (recall my original post to you), right? Who cares about heavy equipment being present or not?



Your formations are nicely enumerated here, from Pakistani references:

https://www.revolvy.com/page/Pakistan-Army-order-of-battle,-December-1971


3rd Infantry Division - Jessore - GOC Maj Gen Shaukat Riaz
16th Infantry Division - Bogra - GOC Maj Gen Nazar Hussain Shah
14 Infantry Division - Dhaka -GOC Maj Gen Rahim Khan

That is three divisions, full fledged, at the start of Op Searchlight :lol:

So, your "two divisions" is out.

In December 1971,just prior to onset of war:

Regular Infantry Divisions:

3rd Infantry Division
16th Infantry Division
14th Infantry Division

(Approximately 15000 x 3 = 45000 troops)

Additional Military Forces:

36th Ad hoc Infantry Division
- under Major General Muhammad Jamshed HQ Dhaka Area of Operation: Dhaka, Tangail and Mymensingh district;
Troops -
93 Infantry Brigade: Brig Abdul Qadir Khan HQ Mymensingh
  • 83 Independent. Mortar battery
  • 31 Baluch – Jamalpur
  • 33 Punjab – Mymensingh
  • 71 Wing WPR – Kishorganj
  • 70 Wing WPR – Bijaipur
39th ad hoc Infantry Division - under Maj. Gen. Rahim Khan (replaced by Brig. Mian Mansoor)

Troops:

117th Infantry Brigade (Comilla) : Brig. Sheikh M.H. Atif with 30 Punjab – Saldanadi, 25th Frontier Force – Mainamati and 12th Azad Kashmir – Comilla; 53rd Field Artillery – Comilla

(that is a full fledged Brigade Group)


53rde Infantry Brigade (Feni): Brig. Aslam Niazi with 15th Baluch – Belonia, 39th Baluch – Laksham, 23rd Punjab – Mean Bazar, 21 Azad Kashmir – Laksham

(that is a Brigade +)

91st Ad hoc Brigade (Ramgarh)
: Brig. Mian Taskeenuddin HQ Chittagong with 24th Frontier Force – Ramgarh, Chakma and Mizo troops EPCAF 11th and 14th Wings

(that is troop strength of a Brigade at least)

97th Independent Brigade (Chittagong)
: Brig. Ata Mohd. Khan Malik with 48th Baluch – Chittagong, 2 SSG Commando – Rangamati, 60th Wing Rangers – Ramgarh, 61st Wing Rangers – Cox’s Bazar , 46th Light Air Defence Battery


A general disposition as under:

View attachment 525245

Courtesy - Wikipedia


All, of course, to be read in conjunction with Article 43 of the Additional Protocol of Geneva Convention which deals with definition of Combatant & Prisoner of War status as under:

Article 43 — Armed forces

1. The armed forces of a Party to a conflict consist of all organized armed forces, groups and units which are under a command responsible to that Party for the conduct of its subordinates, even if that Party is represented by a government or an authority not recognized by an adverse Party. Such armed forces shall be subject to an internal disciplinary system which, inter alia, shall enforce compliance with the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict.

2. Members of the armed forces of a Party to a conflict (other than medical personnel and chaplains covered by Article 33 of the Third Convention) are combatants, that is to say, they have the right to participate directly in hostilities.

3. Whenever a Party to a conflict incorporates a paramilitary or armed law enforcement agency into its armed forces it shall so notify the other Parties to the conflict.



But, hey, like I said earlier, create a figure and try hard to mainstream it, for
" ...facts and Orbat of your forces in Eastern Command in 1971 have a different force disposition. So I guess people just disappeared."



@The Eagle Refer conversation the other day. 1971 is still far from being won yet on PDF ;)

@Dubious you can mark this a negative too (as all were positive contributions from every Pakistani member adding to an informed and conducive discussion :D) as @Basel was kind enough to point out, to quote him:



@Joe Shearer I just could not resist!
Have fun arguing with brick walls.
 
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Dear Mr. Ali

Like I said earlier:

" ...facts and Orbat of your forces in Eastern Command in 1971 have a different force disposition. So I guess people just disappeared."


What can be said, all your officers who fought in the war, must have been exaggerating the numbers of formations, lying about the strength that they actually had, and the co-opting of troops from Paramilitary Forces, Scouts, Police Forces?


Rest of your post? We are talking numbers taken as POWs (recall my original post to you), right? Who cares about heavy equipment being present or not?



Your formations are nicely enumerated here, from Pakistani references:

https://www.revolvy.com/page/Pakistan-Army-order-of-battle,-December-1971


3rd Infantry Division - Jessore - GOC Maj Gen Shaukat Riaz
16th Infantry Division - Bogra - GOC Maj Gen Nazar Hussain Shah
14 Infantry Division - Dhaka -GOC Maj Gen Rahim Khan

That is three divisions, full fledged, at the start of Op Searchlight :lol:

So, your "two divisions" is out.

In December 1971,just prior to onset of war:

Regular Infantry Divisions:

3rd Infantry Division
16th Infantry Division
14th Infantry Division

(Approximately 15000 x 3 = 45000 troops)

Additional Military Forces:

36th Ad hoc Infantry Division
- under Major General Muhammad Jamshed HQ Dhaka Area of Operation: Dhaka, Tangail and Mymensingh district;
Troops -
93 Infantry Brigade: Brig Abdul Qadir Khan HQ Mymensingh
  • 83 Independent. Mortar battery
  • 31 Baluch – Jamalpur
  • 33 Punjab – Mymensingh
  • 71 Wing WPR – Kishorganj
  • 70 Wing WPR – Bijaipur
39th ad hoc Infantry Division - under Maj. Gen. Rahim Khan (replaced by Brig. Mian Mansoor)

Troops:

117th Infantry Brigade (Comilla) : Brig. Sheikh M.H. Atif with 30 Punjab – Saldanadi, 25th Frontier Force – Mainamati and 12th Azad Kashmir – Comilla; 53rd Field Artillery – Comilla

(that is a full fledged Brigade Group)


53rde Infantry Brigade (Feni): Brig. Aslam Niazi with 15th Baluch – Belonia, 39th Baluch – Laksham, 23rd Punjab – Mean Bazar, 21 Azad Kashmir – Laksham

(that is a Brigade +)

91st Ad hoc Brigade (Ramgarh)
: Brig. Mian Taskeenuddin HQ Chittagong with 24th Frontier Force – Ramgarh, Chakma and Mizo troops EPCAF 11th and 14th Wings

(that is troop strength of a Brigade at least)

97th Independent Brigade (Chittagong)
: Brig. Ata Mohd. Khan Malik with 48th Baluch – Chittagong, 2 SSG Commando – Rangamati, 60th Wing Rangers – Ramgarh, 61st Wing Rangers – Cox’s Bazar , 46th Light Air Defence Battery


A general disposition as under:

View attachment 525245

Courtesy - Wikipedia


All, of course, to be read in conjunction with Article 43 of the Additional Protocol of Geneva Convention which deals with definition of Combatant & Prisoner of War status as under:

Article 43 — Armed forces

1. The armed forces of a Party to a conflict consist of all organized armed forces, groups and units which are under a command responsible to that Party for the conduct of its subordinates, even if that Party is represented by a government or an authority not recognized by an adverse Party. Such armed forces shall be subject to an internal disciplinary system which, inter alia, shall enforce compliance with the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict.

2. Members of the armed forces of a Party to a conflict (other than medical personnel and chaplains covered by Article 33 of the Third Convention) are combatants, that is to say, they have the right to participate directly in hostilities.

3. Whenever a Party to a conflict incorporates a paramilitary or armed law enforcement agency into its armed forces it shall so notify the other Parties to the conflict.



But, hey, like I said earlier, create a figure and try hard to mainstream it, for
" ...facts and Orbat of your forces in Eastern Command in 1971 have a different force disposition. So I guess people just disappeared."



@The Eagle Refer conversation the other day. 1971 is still far from being won yet on PDF ;)

@Dubious you can mark this a negative too (as all were positive contributions from every Pakistani member adding to an informed and conducive discussion :D) as @Basel was kind enough to point out, to quote him:



@Joe Shearer I just could not resist!



The above source is from wikipedia which is subject to severe indianistic doctoring. Is there ANY irrefutable, genuine, honest and reliable evidence to support the above claims?
 
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In December 1971,just prior to onset of war:
In all the posts here I have lost track. What is the point your making? Perhaps you can enumerate them? We can continue to slice for everything but the fact was the geography assured defeat. The map below sums up the nightmare of defending Bangla, surrounded as it was 3/4 with India and 1/3 water.

tRcjRF8.png
 
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In all the posts here I have lost track. What is the point your making? Perhaps you can enumerate them? We can continue to slice for everything but the fact was the geography assured defeat. The map below sums up the nightmare of defending Bangla, surrounded as it was 3/4 with India and 1/3 water.

tRcjRF8.png
Does this map explains "The defence of East Pakistan rests in West Pakistan" doctrine?
 
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Does this map explains "The defence of East Pakistan rests in West Pakistan" doctrine?
No. It explains the theory that -

  • if Bangla population threw a trantrum
  • India teamed up with Bangla Mukhtos

Pakistan Army would be toasted in the East simply because it would be drowned. And there never was "defence of east rests with west". It actually mean't "if shat hits the fan hell to the short fcukers".
 
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In all the posts here I have lost track. What is the point your making? Perhaps you can enumerate them? We can continue to slice for everything but the fact was the geography assured defeat. The map below sums up the nightmare of defending Bangla, surrounded as it was 3/4 with India and 1/3 water.

tRcjRF8.png




Didn't realise we were that FAR from bangladesh. Hell we are geographically more closer to Turkey and the Arab nations than we are to bangladesh. That is very telling........:agree:
 
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The above source is from wikipedia which is subject to severe indianistic doctoring. Is there ANY irrefutable, genuine, honest and reliable evidence to support the above claims?

Until you write your autobiography, there is no irrefutable, genuine, honest and reliable evidence to support any of these claims.

Since you haven't mentioned it in your autobiography, we can conclude with confidence that there is no irrefutable, genuine, honest and reliable evidence to support the supposition that there is a country called Pakistan, either.
 
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Lest we forget, India also conquered 3600 sq km of land in West Pak and established a post office in the town of Chachro. Even that land was returned to Pak after the Shimla Agreement sometime in December 1972.

You can read about that unique Indian post office here -
http://www.indianphilately.net/chachropostoffice.html
 
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Lest we forget, India also conquered 3600 sq km of land in West Pak and established a post office in the town of Chachro. Even that land was returned to Pak after the Shimla Agreement sometime in December 1972.

You can read about that unique Indian post office here -
http://www.indianphilately.net/chachropostoffice.html





Source is indian, therefore dubious. Any non-indian sources to support your assertions?

Until you write your autobiography, there is no irrefutable, genuine, honest and reliable evidence to support any of these claims.

Since you haven't mentioned it in your autobiography, we can conclude with confidence that there is no irrefutable, genuine, honest and reliable evidence to support the supposition that there is a country called Pakistan, either.



Nice try to deflect. It means there is NO GENUINE, HONEST, RELIABLE & IRREFUTABLE evidence to support your claims and assertions, just mere indianisms and lies.
 
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