Retaliation against Pakistan is warranted

[CZAR]

You just forced a much smaller country to focus on other fronts hence naturally due to limited resources they couldn't focused on the initial front. Any country with more resources can do that. In the process of defending disputed territory you lost settled territory to the enemy. Even in the disputed territory you had to return the gains you made there like capturing of Haji Pir pass in exchange for the Pakistani gains in the chamb sector.

I am appalled that senior members of PDF resort to such frivolous arguments. Enough with the "I-am-big-enough-to-pick-a-fight-but-too-small-to-win" syndrome.

As for India opening up other theatres - what did you expect after launching a full fledged military campaign to wrestle awawy what india terms as its sovereign territory? How can pak ignite a full fledged conflict and then feign ignorance and ill-preparedness?

What would you have India do? Not use the resources at its disposal to make it a fair fight for the pak army which claimed that it was capable of breaking the "hindu morale" with a couple of blows?

 

[INDIC]

You just forced a much smaller country to focus on other fronts hence naturally due to limited resources they couldn't focused on the initial front. Any country with more resources can do that. In the process of defending disputed territory you lost settled territory to the enemy. Even in the disputed territory you had to return the gains you made there like capturing of Haji Pir pass in exchange for the Pakistani gains in the chamb sector.

Ayub Khan assumed that India is extremely weak due to 1962 war . Indian attack of Lahore was a nice plan to fail Operation Gibraltar. You returned back all of Indian land since you lost more of it.

 

[Areesh]

We'll take it in turns I guess.

Though I am curious to see whether or not India will one day work up the nerve to shoot and kill any Chinese soldiers during one of these so-called "Chinese incursions".

Of course, that will instantly lead to another Sino-Indian War.

Nah. No Sino-Indian war. I feel at the end there would be some kind of a pact which would change LAC to some extent. Chumar area might be completely given to China or at least Indian troops would stop patrolling in that territory and no Indian military posts would be established in that region. Issue solved peacefully. China has issues mostly with Chumar right now.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Nah. No Sino-Indian war. I feel at the end there would be some kind of a pact which would change LAC to some extent. Chumar area might be completely given to China or at least Indian troops would stop patrolling in that territory and no Indian military posts would be established in that region. Issue solved peacefully. China has issues mostly with Chumar right now.

They have already stopped patrolling Chumar.

Indian troops suspend patrols at Chumar - Times Of India

And if they shoot/kill a Chinese soldier on Chinese territory, that is the red line. Even the CCP won't be able to stop the explosion of nationalist sentiment. In fact they may find such an outpouring of nationalist sentiment very convenient.

 

[Bang Galore]

Nah. No Sino-Indian war. I feel at the end there would be some kind of a pact which would change LAC to some extent. Chumar area might be completely given to China or at least Indian troops would stop patrolling in that territory and no Indian military posts would be established in that region. Issue solved peacefully. China has issues mostly with Chumar right now.

The issues with China is much simpler. The Chinese want to freeze all devlopments near the border, hence they are pushing for an agreement on that score. Since India is still developing infrasytructure on its side & such infrastructure is already well developed on China's side, Indian officials are not agreeable to sign any such agreement. China is just apllying very limited pressure to see if that will achieve any result. This is all very civilised stuff. China is wary of an Indian build up & wants to apply pressure to get a deal before such a fear becomes a reality. It is essentially a limited probing exercise to see whether such pressure works

 

[Star Wars]

They have already stopped patrolling Chumar.

Indian troops suspend patrols at Chumar - Times Of India

And if they shoot/kill a Chinese soldier on Chinese territory, that is the red line. Even the CCP won't be able to stop the explosion of nationalist sentiment. In fact they may find such an outpouring of nationalist sentiment very convenient.

It was an agreement.. between india and china ...

 

[Bang Galore]

And if they shoot/kill a Chinese soldier on Chinese territory, that is the red line. Even the CCP won't be able to stop the explosion of nationalist sentiment. In fact they may find such an outpouring of nationalist sentiment very convenient.

The reverse is equally true. Also China has made sure that most Indians now see China as an enemy, compared to at any point in time in the last couple of decades. In the long run, I just don't see how that will be a good thing for China.

Btw, we are going off topic so my last post on India-China here.

 

[Secur]

Why blame the size differential AFTER the conflict?

Why , take the post , out of context , again and write an article-sized post ?

Because the size and resource differential always was/is there , that is a fact , same goes for Indo-Pakistan rivalry . Islamabad has a claim on Kashmir , which it thinks hasn't been done justice to , by the Indians and International community . So as long as the dispute is there , this was/will continue to happen Pakistan saw an opportune moment and sent its forces in Kashmir in '65 , so what if the plan didn't succeed because of a few mistakes at Akhnoor . Google the famous quote by an Indian General on ' how the enemy came to our rescue ' . Pakistan Army was succesful in defending Lahore , the PAF in achieving complete air superiority over the Indians and Pakistan Navy in keeping its counterparts at bay . It is courage, courage, courage, that raises the blood of life to crimson splendor. Live bravely and present a brave front to adversity. -Horace . Forget everything , atleast , we showed New Dehli that we have the courage and guts to fight an enemy which is significantly larger than our country and shouldn't be considered weak or treated anything like India does to its smaller neighbors . Sometimes , things go beyond the inherent disadvantage , you speak of , seeing how much fight the Indians are putting against the PLA on LAC , it starts to look true . Pakistan and its people rightly expect the credit and praise for putting up a fight against heavy odds , with an adversary with larger resources and size and rightly so , having once secured the 37% of Kashmir in the First Kashmir War against the same enemy , with the same inherent disadvantages but having the courage and bravery to fight and not fear odds .

Despite the ' stalemate ' and ' inconclusiveness ' of the Second Kashmir War , it may be interesting to note that Pakistan took possession of 910 KM2 of territory in the Rann of Kuch , which wasn't returned after the Tashkent declaration and later authenticated by an International tribunal in '68 . Also , Pakistan never went to the UN for ceasefire , it was the Indians who did so .

 

[Pulsar]

You read too much of Indian media it seems, apart from 1971, where CFR [Combatant Force Ratio] was 1-25 in favor of India, all other conflicts were inconclusive.

Why do you always spew nonsensical rhetoric? You obviously know squat of the order of battle (OOB). What you've just mentioned exhibits your utter ignorance of the 1971 war for which I suggest you read some books on it and take the effort of doing some basic research before spouting garbage out here.

You say the Combat Ratio was 1-25 in favor of India?? Really? Ok, let's check it out. Here's the ORBAT for both India and Pakistan in the BD Liberation war of 1971....

Pak Army Orbat

9 Inf Div
14 Inf Div
16 Inf Div
36 Inf Div
39 Inf Div
97 Independent Brigade
Rajshahi Ad hoc Brigade

Indian Army Orbat

4 Mtn Div
6 Mtn Div
8 Mtn Div
9 Inf Div
20 Mtn Div
23 Mtn Div
57 Mtn Div
50 Para Brigade
71, 95 and 167 Indep Brigades. (About one division strength total)

So that means Pakistan’s 5 divisions and 2 indep brigades Vs India’s 7 divisions and 4 indep brigades (including Para brigade).

So, friend, how do you bring out that laughable figure of a 20:1 combat ratio? Is it due to ignorance of military history or are you doing this on purpose to try and influence the sheeple out here with falsification of facts to avoid the embarrassment of your 1971 disaster?

Why did it come to such a pass? Your troops can’t be blamed for the PA’s rout as much as your officer cadre especially the brass. Here’s a stinging indictment in your Hamoodur Rahman Commission Report:

The report accused the generals of what it called a premature surrender and said the military's continued involvement in running the government after 1958 was one reason for the corruption and ineffectiveness of senior officers. 'Even responsible service officers,' the report said, 'have asserted before us that because of corruption resulting from such involvement, the lust for wine and women and greed for lands and houses, a large number of senior army officers, particularly those occupying the highest positions, had lost not only their will to fight but also their professional competence.

Now go do some research before posting nonsense out here and trying to obfuscate issues. Thanks for hearing me out. Awaiting a riposte from you which I'm sure is going to consist of more such baloney!

 

[CZAR]

Why , take the post , out of context , again and write an article-sized post ?

Because the size and resource differential always was/is there , that is a fact , same goes for Indo-Pakistan rivalry . Islamabad has a claim on Kashmir , which it thinks hasn't been done justice to , by the Indians and International community . So as long as the dispute is there , this was/will continue to happen Pakistan saw an opportune moment and sent its forces in Kashmir in '65 , so what if the plan didn't succeed because of a few mistakes at Akhnoor . Google the famous quote by an Indian General on ' how the enemy came to our rescue ' . Pakistan Army was succesful in defending Lahore , the PAF in achieving complete air superiority over the Indians and Pakistan Navy in keeping its counterparts at bay . It is courage, courage, courage, that raises the blood of life to crimson splendor. Live bravely and present a brave front to adversity. -Horace . Forget everything , atleast , we showed New Dehli that we have the courage and guts to fight an enemy which is significantly larger than our country and shouldn't be considered weak or treated anything like India does to its smaller neighbors . Sometimes , things go beyond the inherent disadvantage , you speak of , seeing how much fight the Indians are putting against the PLA on LAC , it starts to look true . Pakistan and its people rightly expect the credit and praise for putting up a fight against heavy odds , with an adversary with larger resources and size and rightly so , having once secured the 37% of Kashmir in the First Kashmir War against the same enemy , with the same inherent disadvantages but having the courage and bravery to fight and not fear odds .

Despite the ' stalemate ' and ' inconclusiveness ' of the Second Kashmir War , it may be interesting to note that Pakistan took possession of 910 KM2 of territory in the Rann of Kuch , which wasn't returned after the Tashkent declaration and later authenticated by an International tribunal in '68 . Also , Pakistan never went to the UN for ceasefire , it was the Indians who did so .

You didn't like the "article sized post", so here's a smaller reply -

Kudos for courage, bravery. Reminder - none of the boxes on Ayub Khan's checklist have a tick mark on them. The indian checklist has more ticks.

Cheers.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

So where is this retaliation then?

And don't tell me it is "secret" retaliation. That would be utterly pointless, since no one would even know you responded at all.

If retaliation is going to have any effect at all, people have to know it was you. Otherwise it's just another random crime.

 

[Desi Guy]

So where is this retaliation then?

And don't tell me it is "secret" retaliation. That would be utterly pointless, since no one would even know you responded at all.

If retaliation is going to have any effect at all, people have to know it was you. Otherwise it's just another random crime.

Open ended retaliation will unite Pakistan against Kaafir Hindu India.today sectarinism is flourishing in that country .So Its best to divide and Conquer. We also take lessons from Chanakya as You do from Sun Tzu.

 

[Abhishek_]

So where is this retaliation then?

And don't tell me it is "secret" retaliation. That would be utterly pointless, since no one would even know you responded at all.

If retaliation is going to have any effect at all, people have to know it was you. Otherwise it's just another random crime.

there is more than one way to skin the cat. in any case, the tit-for-tat is nothing new here.

 

[A1Kaid]

Retaliation against Pakistan is warranted but not recommended. The right-wing hawkish Indian author is just spouting typical right-wing war-mongering rhetoric you typically here from the Hindu-right wing partiea in India such as BJP and VHP. He fails to understand retaliation against Pakistan will come at a major price for India, not will India suffer greater casualties but India will be humiliated and face negative international press-- as the horrible human rights violation situation is exposed in international press as they continue to mention Kashmir when converting these incursions.

India recently tried to retaliate and wounded two Pakistani soldiers that is all it could muster in its retaliation operation, the infiltrators were fired upon and retreated back to the Indian LoC, hoping to avenge the five fallen comrades they lost days ago but utterly failed to do so.

But India has failed to understand or recognize this ploy by Pakistan. After each major incident, Pakistan starts playing cards of goodwill, brings up old connections of Indians with West Punjab, raises the issue of sharing a common language and culture, opens the connection of religion with Indian Muslims, relates that Iqbal was an Indian poet laureate who wrote sare jahan se acha Hindustan hamara, and purports to act as a brother toward India. Stupid Indian politicians fall for this diplomacy hook, line, and sinker, while Pakistani diplomacy returns chuckling that it made a fool of stupid Indians once again.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...against-pakistan-warranted.html#ixzz2bSJXTL13

This is laughable, Pakistan does none of this, Pakistan could care less for India, Pakistan however does assert the importance of the cease fire which was severely violated In July after Indian troops crossed over killing a single PA soldier. As for commonilaties they are completely dismissed by Pakistan.

India’s plan to retaliate with operation Parakram was thwarted by USA. With Indian tanks having started to roll at night across the Thar Desert in the direction of Pakistan, “Bhajpayi” and “”George Furnandiz” received a midnight call on the hotline to call off the invasion, or else. Apparently, American interests in Pakistan were more important than Indian interests with Pakistan. The toughest, biggest nation on Earth could turn the screws on the possibly corrupt leaders of a poor country at any time. Once again, Indian military action was determined by a foreign nation in a foreign city. There was nothing of Indian independence in this thinking, revealing that India is not its own country.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...against-pakistan-warranted.html#ixzz2bSKKsOcO

Author should provide source for this claim.



Overall, the author overestimates India's capability perceiving Pakistan as utterly weak and assumes India simply lacks the leadership to militarily fight Pakistan, the leadership in India knows full well a war with Pakistan will damage the economic progress made in the last years and the Indian economy is already faltering while the Pakistani economy is experiencing an uplift with new Governmet in power. The Indian government isn't prepared to appease the right-wing maniacs in its country for the sake of emotional national sentiment, they are more pragmatic then that and know its best to avoid war with Pakistan even if that means allowing Pakistan to attack and kill Indian soldiers at any time.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

there is more than one way to skin the cat. in any case, the tit-for-tat is nothing new here.

What a bunch of bull sh*t.

If retaliation is to have any effect at all, they have to know you did it.

"Secret retaliation" as claimed by Indians, has absolutely zero deterrence effect since nobody knew you did it, or even retaliated at all. It will be seen as just another random crime.