Reliance on China to Hurt Pakistan in Future

[IceCold]

i was so sad when i heared some pakistan friend said"China is not good with Muslims" , i dont know why some paksitan friends also so believe to what some western media's report like BBC,CNN. they just want to make mischief on the issue of chinese national relation. some western country try to support some of the chinese muslem splittist's riot .

When did we say that and where by the way?

 

[blain2]

It's called a deal. The US doesn't need our business as much as China did. China benefited a lot from the JF-17 deal, so they offered a lot in return (including ToT). Now, as an example, India is offering big business with the MMRCA contest winner, US$10-billion, and therefore, the US is willing to transfer certain amount of their technology to India (which is outdated according to their standards). That's because the US is looking our for itself. Guess what, China does the same.

The argument that the Americans are less reliable than the Chinese as a people is flawed. They are both equally reliable, given that we can provide an equally valuable return.

Now, from Pakistan's point of view, I agree, China is a more reliable partner. But that is only because Pakistan can offer China what they want in return. Without Pakistani business, China's defense industry may not have been able to get where it is today.

Like I said, we should not expect anyone to do us any favors. Cooperation is always good, but too much reliance is bad. This is pretty much common sense, I don't see why anyone would disagree.

We are being ingrates here in my opinion.
China has gone above and beyond to help Pakistan. They do not need us in the sense of needing us. Their defence industry does not run on Pakistan's business (as was the case of Russians and Indians).

They are very good friends of Pakistan because we have a common view about the region. Secondly, they have always preferred to help out Pakistan by setting infrastructure rather than giving money. You ask the Chinese leadership for money, they offer cooperation and help with setting up infrastructure and production. This is a huge blessing in disguise.

You only have the Chinese to thank for POF, PAC, PRR, Gwader etc. etc..yes there is always some self-interest and those of Pakistan's and China's converge, but the Chinese have helped Pakistan above and beyond any others. I say this not meaning to denigrate US help as well as that of the KSA. However the Chinese enable us..others assist us. There is a big difference between the two. If you want to develop on your own, then you want to be enabled.

Gents, China has its own internal dynamics. We too have the same issues. Only with friendship with the Chinese, we can help them out with the problems in their Uighur region. As a Muslim country, Pakistan can potentially act as a bridge to better understanding between the Chinese government and those people.

 

[blain2]

Like I've said before, we set to gain a lot from Chinese cooperation, but total dependence on them is not a good idea. Our Armed Forces recognize that, I just hope that our private industry does as well. Other than that, you are entitled to your own fairy-tale opinions.

When has Pakistan ever had total dependence on anyone? Pakistani military procurement is very diversified however core programs are Chinese based but managed, run, engineered, owned and staffed by Pakistan. The Chinese want us to own it. Every single engineering refit that needs to happen at regular maintenance milestones is done inside of Pakistan because the Chinese have always been forthcoming in setting up support facilities inside of Pakistan. Compare that to what we have had to do for even a non-offensive system like the C-130 Herc. We have paid through our noses to get those overhauled when we were under Western sanctions by sending them to Portugal even though we inducted the C-130s in 1964.

Our private industry is not China dependent and has never been. What we need to do is to take lessons from the Chinese on the market reforms they have undertaken.

 

[SQ8]

Some people have taken the idea of friendship in international relations a bit too much to the letter. The Chinese have undoubtedly been excellent in their relations with us. but they have their interest as well. They required access to another port.. we gave them Gwadar. However.. we have been playing a double game with the Chinese by cozying up to the Americans every time we get a chance..who kidnapped the Chinese engineers and on whose behest? It would definitely irk the Chinese to be invited in and then allowed to be kidnapped and killed in the land of people who claim themselves to be the best allies of China.The same way we let anti Chinese state elements from Xinjiang train here in Pakistan since we rarely ever know what is going on in our own country, one should be thankful that the Chinese used backdoor channels instead of publicly stating that their so called best friend was letting its enemies use its territory.. Then comes the military friendship, Early on the Chinese needed us to contain India as it helps their cause if India's attention is kept on us.However now they realize that currently us being stable and intact is more important, Since any break up will surely lead to Talibanization in what would remain of Pakistan and it would affect the Uighur region with their own hardware being used against them.This may never come true, but the media perception is what matters.Another aspect has a lot to do with the Pakistani Ruling class mentality of loving everything Western. And the fact that America pays better than most.
Also, the presence of American Media in Pakistan and their impact on our culture has been much greater. People in Pakistan know much more about America, eat America, Buy America.. prefer America. Sure everyone loves to say "Pak Chin Dosti" but that is the extent of it. Only the governments of the two countries are involved in this friendship. The people are lagging behind.

There is no harm in putting all or eggs in one basket, but then the basket must be treated with respect, and not set aside whenever opportunity calls and taken back whenever in trouble.

 

[PAFAce]

When has Pakistan ever had total dependence on anyone? Pakistani military procurement is very diversified however core programs are Chinese based but managed, run, engineered, owned and staffed by Pakistan. The Chinese want us to own it. Every single engineering refit that needs to happen at regular maintenance milestones is done inside of Pakistan because the Chinese have always been forthcoming in setting up support facilities inside of Pakistan. Compare that to what we have had to do for even a non-offensive system like the C-130 Herc. We have paid through our noses to get those overhauled when we were under Western sanctions by sending them to Portugal even though we inducted the C-130s in 1964.

Our private industry is not China dependent and has never been. What we need to do is to take lessons from the Chinese on the market reforms they have undertaken.

I was simply answering the question, sir. I do not think Pakistan is completely dependent on China, I was simply arguing that we must not rely on them too much (hypothetically). As you mentioned, POF, PAC, Gwadar, all impossible without Chinese assistance. When will we start doing these things ourselves?

Regarding diversification, yes, historically we have been pretty diverse, but the recent trend has been unsettling. Of course, I understand that sanctions had a major role to play in this, and I am not complaining, I am merely pointing it out. Also, regarding the private industry, my point was the exact opposite of what you understood. It had more to do with having to compete with superior Chinese domestic industry's dominance in Pakistan than Pakistan's own. That's all.

Lastly, I would be the last person to be thankless to the Chinese for all that they've done for Pakistan. My point was simply that they did not do this out of "brotherly love" as some have suggested. They have benefited from this alliance as well, strategically and economically. I believe you don't agree with me on this, which is surprising to me because I was of the opinion that the Armed Forces of Pakistan do not take Chinese cooperation for granted. Since you have always showed great insight into the military thinking of Pakistan, it came as a surprise to me that you do not share this view. Sino-Pak relations are based on reciprocation, like all international relations.

 

[Prince_of_Mistery]

HI again,

Thanks to all of you, who have read the post or made contribution. It was quite interesting to read your views on it.

The purpose of my post was not to cause trouble but to ask a valid question. When One nation relies on another too much. Then the nation who is relying on the other its at its mercy.

I fully support the bilateral ties between Pakistan and China. However Pakistan needs to develop its own technology and move forward.

I think we should take look at the Indians and see how they have changed wests opinion on them.

I work in the west and all the countries want a share of business in india because they realise there is huge consumer base there.

Now pakistan cant compete with india in that sense. But it can still become a fully self sufficient nation.

However there are numerous things that pakistan needs to get rid of.

One is self interest every man woman and child only looks out for himself in pakistan. rather then the common good. saying that disasters do bring out the best in the pakistan nation. Take for example the earh quake every pakistani supported the people of Kasmir.

Pakistani people need to realise there is plenty of potential within pakistan. But i have seen on numerous occasions all the people who have education or any good ideas they tend to move out pakistan and set there base outside pakistan.

I hope the people of pakistan realise there full potential and make it one of the leading nations within asia.

Peace

MN

 

[SBD-3]

HI again,

Thanks to all of you, who have read the post or made contribution. It was quite interesting to read your views on it.

The purpose of my post was not to cause trouble but to ask a valid question. When One nation relies on another too much. Then the nation who is relying on the other its at its mercy.

I fully support the bilateral ties between Pakistan and China. However Pakistan needs to develop its own technology and move forward.

I think we should take look at the Indians and see how they have changed wests opinion on them.

I work in the west and all the countries want a share of business in india because they realise there is huge consumer base there.

Now pakistan cant compete with india in that sense. But it can still become a fully self sufficient nation.

However there are numerous things that pakistan needs to get rid of.

One is self interest every man woman and child only looks out for himself in pakistan. rather then the common good. saying that disasters do bring out the best in the pakistan nation. Take for example the earh quake every pakistani supported the people of Kasmir.

Pakistani people need to realise there is plenty of potential within pakistan. But i have seen on numerous occasions all the people who have education or any good ideas they tend to move out pakistan and set there base outside pakistan.

I hope the people of pakistan realise there full potential and make it one of the leading nations within asia.

Peace

MN

well dear there re many bitter realities that we need to address
1) No advanced industrial base (especially electronics and Manufacuring)
2) Lack of Highly exprienced scientific professionals
3) Lack of Quality output and research from Public sector Universities.
4) Economic Pressures
5) Lack of fiscal space for development and educational spending
6) Security Problems
7) Red tapism
we have to improve a lot before we can become an self relient nation.
Dont expect millitary to take charge of all the production. World over milliraty supports private sector defence and research organizations for tech development unlike in Pakistan where PAF has to do it all by its self.We at least need to come at the level of China to become self relient

 

[HAIDER]

First of all Pakistani engineer never totally depend on Chinese technology. But Pakistan is GREATLY Greateful to chinese, who is the only nation ,let Pakistani engineers to step in their high tech facility in the world. So, plz knock of this idea of dependency, Chinese provide Pak armed forces learning culture. Otherwise PAF would be flying only high tech Mirage III by now. US only providing PAF F16, because other option of JF17 is already inside the doors of PAF. Otherwise tell us who the world let PAF engineer to work in design and improvement of avionics in the world................Chinese.
Pakistani should be or without any doubt be grateful to Chinese nation.But yes explore the other option is human nature, and should be adopt.

 

[sadiqams]

and who is india depending on? it seems its been traped by the west in the nuclear deal one test and every thing is off the table and sanctions will befall india.

 

[Stumper]

When has Pakistan ever had total dependence on anyone? Pakistani military procurement is very diversified however core programs are Chinese based but managed, run, engineered, owned and staffed by Pakistan. The Chinese want us to own it. Every single engineering refit that needs to happen at regular maintenance milestones is done inside of Pakistan because the Chinese have always been forthcoming in setting up support facilities inside of Pakistan. Compare that to what we have had to do for even a non-offensive system like the C-130 Herc. We have paid through our noses to get those overhauled when we were under Western sanctions by sending them to Portugal even though we inducted the C-130s in 1964.

Our private industry is not China dependent and has never been. What we need to do is to take lessons from the Chinese on the market reforms they have undertaken.

Correct. Also what the original poster was trying to imply is that someday china would expect you to return the favor's. Be ready for that. That i believe is his whole point. His point does merit a discussion.

To be honest all the countries in our region have had some or other god father. Except for space (with some initial help), i don't think any of Indian projects are truly indigenous. Our egg's are now spread across US, Isreal and Russia (and few other small players). You might have a tilt more towards China.

 

[dave]

That's why leave all option open for future. Not depend one country if you have choice. You have to make your stand clear and convince the world that's why we get N deal.

 

[blain2]

Correct. Also what the original poster was trying to imply is that someday china would expect you to return the favor's. Be ready for that. That i believe is his whole point. His point does merit a discussion.

To be honest all the countries in our region have had some or other god father. Except for space (with some initial help), i don't think any of Indian projects are truly indigenous. Our egg's are now spread across US, Isreal and Russia (and few other small players). You might have a tilt more towards China.

I do not see it that way because this was never a one way street. We have helped the Chinese out in many other ways and their leadership is also aware of it. What you suggest should apply more to India given the American largess on the nuclear deal and suddenly opening up to India every which way. If anything, Americans are the ones who come calling openly on favours owed. Chinese are more patient and do so understanding the other side's limitations.

Pakistan's relations are no different than of two countries that have very tightly converged interests in most areas. There will always be some differences, but on aggregate, they tend to go in the same direction. Such is the case with China-Pakistan.

 

[blain2]

That's why leave all option open for future. Not depend one country if you have choice. You have to make your stand clear and convince the world that's why we get N deal.

You would have spent another 10 years convincing the world if you had to do it on your own with the way you are proposing. The fact is that US Admin. under Bush realized that in the future the Chinese will expand their influence to gain access to markets and resources beyond their own neighbourhood. The Indian factor works to the advantage of the US to keep Chinese entangled locally. For the Indians to play this kind of ball, there had to be some incentives to be given to the Indians and the Americans facilitated that very quickly on the nuclear issue. I am sure more will be done for India, but as Stumper has stated above with regards to China and Pakistan, I am sure the Americans will come calling sooner or later.

 

[Stumper]

I do not see it that way because this was never a one way street. We have helped the Chinese out in many other ways and their leadership is also aware of it. What you suggest should apply more to India given the American largess on the nuclear deal and suddenly opening up to India every which way. If anything, Americans are the ones who come calling openly on favours owed. Chinese are more patient and do so understanding the other side's limitations.

Pakistan's relations are no different than of two countries that have very tightly converged interests in most areas. There will always be some differences, but on aggregate, they tend to go in the same direction. Such is the case with China-Pakistan.

We are on same page. I was just stating what the poster original intention was for this post. He might be implying this from uncle sam's war in afpak. Hence i thought this does deserve a discussion.

 

[ARSENAL6]

well dear there re many bitter realities that we need to address
1) No advanced industrial base (especially electronics and Manufacuring)
2) Lack of Highly exprienced scientific professionals
3) Lack of Quality output and research from Public sector Universities.
4) Economic Pressures
5) Lack of fiscal space for development and educational spending
6) Security Problems
7) Red tapism
we have to improve a lot before we can become an self relient nation.
Dont expect millitary to take charge of all the production. World over milliraty supports private sector defence and research organizations for tech development unlike in Pakistan where PAF has to do it all by its self.We at least need to come at the level of China to become self relient

Pakistans economy must be strong and its not hard to achieve for this country to do. We have got the people and the know how. Look how India bettering itself, India is there in the G8 summit and being respected and recognise by them. Let alone Mr 10%, going half way round the world begging for money ! WHY ?