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Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

Bhai @SQ8 apke jaise log Pakistan chor gaye tu bacha kon ? seriously reading your posts makes me believe that our top leadership is full of arrogance and ignorant of what they are doing, why is that? Are they not Patriots or educated enough to be in the position ? or its just their Priorities in Life is just not with Pakistan?
Mujhe se hazaar guna behtar Pakistan mein abhi bhi hain..
however, despite many fundamental disagreements I do vehemently agree with @VCheng on a system for a group of people best referred as elites or whatever that serves their interests. It promotes corruption for this select few and lets them sustain this culture generation to generation, MPa to MNA, officer grade to grade , long course to long course.
As an example I have given earlier - there are fund issues with Azm yet many years ago a bulb used in centrifuges that was purchased for $0.50 and then procured by the idara for $250 each.
 
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Mujhe se hazaar guna behtar mein abhi bhi hain..
however, despite many fundamental disagreements I do vehemently agree with @VCheng on a system for a group of people best referred as elites or whatever that serves their interests. It promotes corruption for this select few and lets them sustain this culture generation to generation, MPa to MNA, officer grade to grade , long course to long course.
As an example I have given earlier - there are fund issues with Azm yet many years ago a bulb used in centrifuges that was purchased for $0.50 and then procured by the idara for $250 each.

What can I say here? After all, I am the idiot who moved from the land of the $250 bulb to the land of the $640 toilet seat. :D
 
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What tangible result have come out of project Azm at this point? Any timelines, drawings, sub-system developments etc.?

Hope for a successful completion of this project.
 
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If I manage to cut through the sentimental/nationalistic/cheerleading parts of the discussion here, it is still very clear:
Azm does not have a high probability of success. And success would not be to have an NGFA flying in PAF colors - far from it. Success would mean the development of the entire aerospace R&D foundation - the expertise and the equipment.

It has been pointed out how high-tech machinery is being procured. That doesn't mean anything. I have seen the electronics labs of a certain naval-run university filled with absolute top-of-the-line Rohde & Schwarz equipment with a combined value of ~ PKR 10 mil (A LOT when one considers the funding levels of our universities and the quality of education they provide) - gathering dust.

Azm needs technical leadership of the highest level - this can not be stressed enough. And no - those Air Commodores with PhDs who managed to 'resurrect' the Erieyes does not count. These stories might be good from a jingoistic nationalistic POV but stuff like this falls apart when put to the test in real world situations. I have seen the quality of serving officers - even those who have their PhDs from the UK or US. A PhD doesn't guarantee that a person will have the emotional intelligence, interpersonal skills and leadership qualities required to learn, guide and lead, required to accept mistakes, acknowledge the unknowns, cut through the problems and inspire others to give their best in doubtful, confused circumstances.

I think that this 'small' passage from Failure Is Not An Option by Gene Kranz will explain the standard of technical leadership required for such ambitious and near impossible programs.
(Gene Kranz was the Lead Flight Director at NASA during the Apollo Program and later rose to become Director of Flight Operations during the Space Shuttle era)

In 1966, the year before the Apollo fire, Goddard Space Flight Center advised me that they were not installing consoles for controllers on the two Apollo tracking ships. GSFC, the operator of our communications network, believed that the rapid advancements in communications technology would allow transmitting data and communications by satellite by the time the Apollo missions began. Since I had worked many shifts with the ships in Gemini, I was critically aware of the support they
provided in covering key mission events and providing orbital gap coverage. I wanted a controller team aboard the ships for Apollo. I was not willing to risk the crew or mission objectives by making the MCC dependent on “may happen” technology.
I expressed my concerns to Kraft and after a brief discussion he stated, “You’re going to have to convince Mueller*. He considers himself a communications expert and is the only one that can turn around GSFC’s decision.” The following day I flew up to Washington to sell my recommendation to Mueller.
This was not the first time I met Mueller. I had a lot of respect for the way he blocked for his team and took the heat when things went wrong. During a particularly rough press conference after the Gemini 9 Agena failure he sat with seven of us at the press table. Late in the conference a reporter asked, “This is the fourth straight mission where you have had some major problems. When are you going to start kicking some *** and—” That was as far as the reporter got before Mueller tore into
him. He described the problems, the actions taken, then concluded with supportive remarks about his team. His vivid response brought a cheer from the other reporters.
Mueller was busier than hell at NASA headquarters, trying to get the Apollo program up to speed. As I sat outside his office I watched grim-faced engineers and project managers carrying the bad news into his office. During the summer of 1966 the Apollo program seemed to be unraveling. I waited in the secretaries’ office as the time for our appointment passed and the afternoon turned into evening. About 8:00 P.M. he came out, apologized, and told me he had reservations for two for
supper at the Georgetown Inn, so we would have our meeting there. During the meal, this man who knew more about communications technology than I ever would, listened politely as I briefed him between courses on why we needed controllers on the Apollo tracking ships. I was impressed by his patience and courtesy, the force of his technical arguments, and his
willingness to consider my ideas. To this day I am awed that a man with so much weighing on his mind would spend an entire evening with somebody way down the chain of command.
He listened thoughtfully and then told me to go back to Houston; he would make a decision on the following day. Early in the afternoon word came down: my argument had prevailed. GSFC was directed to place controller consoles on the tracking ships.

* George Mueller was the Director of the Office of Manned Spaceflight from 1963 to 1969 and in effect, the head of the entire Apollo program.
Gene Kranz was a simple Flight Director in Houston.

And this, I believe, is what ultimately makes the difference between successful and failed engineering/technology programs. I can quote a dozen other examples too. An example closer to home would be the Pakistan nuclear program. A study reveals several heroes who provided the world-class leadership and inspiration needed by the technical personnel to do their jobs in the face of severe adversity and roadblocks.

Would love your comments on this @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD @Akh1112 @Falcon26 and anyone else
 
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ہم کرسکتے ہیں اور ہم نہیں کرسکتے والا رونا دھونا ختم ہوگیا یا ابھی بھی چل رہا ہے؟ :crazy:
 
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ہم کرسکتے ہیں اور ہم نہیں کرسکتے والا رونا دھونا ختم ہوگیا یا ابھی بھی چل رہا ہے؟ :crazy:
اب یہ چل رہا ہے کہ ہم کیا کر سکتے ہیں کیا نہیں کر سکتے ۔ ایک بات تو پکی ہے ہم جہاز بنا سکتے ہیں پر کیسا بنائیں گے یہ سوال ہے ۔ ہو سکتا ہے نازے کا منہ والا ہو یا زردارے کے منہ والا یا پھر کوئی بندے دا پتر نکل آئے اب یہ آپکی قسمت ۔
 
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If I manage to cut through the sentimental/nationalistic/cheerleading parts of the discussion here, it is still very clear:
Azm does not have a high probability of success. And success would not be to have an NGFA flying in PAF colors - far from it. Success would mean the development of the entire aerospace R&D foundation - the expertise and the equipment.
The way it is planned right now, I agree. In my opinion the solution is a rethinking of the goals of the project. Some very smart people need to sit and analyze our capabilities, our niche in collaboration with international partners, and how to fill any small gaps in our capacity. Most importantly, we should not be hoping to fill FGFA sized gaps in our capability within ten years with 100 thousand dollars. The primary goal should be capacity building through smartly selected projects. For example the MALE program, excellent project. Build on that and develop a really dumb and cheap loyal wingman UCAV.



And no - those Air Commodores with PhDs who managed to 'resurrect' the Erieyes does not count. These stories might be good from a jingoistic nationalistic POV but stuff like this falls apart when put to the test in real world situations.
I feel as a nation that we live through so much collective trauma that we hang on for dear life to every piece of good news we can find. While the Erieye thing was impressive, it was a one off thing a decade ago. What capacity did it really build? Did we see anything happen with that capacity? I'm building to a point, trust me.


I have seen the quality of serving officers - even those who have their PhDs from the UK or US. A PhD doesn't guarantee that a person will have the emotional intelligence, interpersonal skills and leadership qualities required to learn, guide and lead, required to accept mistakes, acknowledge the unknowns, cut through the problems and inspire others to give their best in doubtful, confused circumstances.
I will not even make it about all of those ideals of a good researcher. An even more basic requisite is PRACTICE. Literally, just practice. Take a PhD from MIT, and then put him in SUPARCO for 20 years. Take a PhD from QAU and put him in Boeing for 20 years. Who do you prefer to manage your R&D? I am sure there are very talented officers in the PAF who get PhDs from very reputable international universities. I personally know many.

Unfortunately, and I cannot stress the unfortunateness of this enough, how they practice their knowledge is what fails them. And by practice I mean not at all. PAF guy gets a PhD in aerodynamics, comes back and what does he work on? Managing the assembly line of the JF-17. PAF guy gets a PhD in flight dynamics and control, comes back and what does he work on? Desk jobs doing paper analysis to keep busy.

So what's the issue here? The issue is that we do not have actual aerospace projects where talented people can work at - practice and hone their craft. So what's the solution? Have numerous projects under numerous roofs. Keep these projects simple and achievable (like a loyal wingman UCAV) and involve the private sector so Pakistan can retain and keep in practice many more talented individuals.

If Pakistan can somehow employ 1000 engineers in a productive project for a decade who are free to move around companies (and not live under SPD rocks), that itself will create an aerospace industry regardless of what this project produces. That's my understanding of the "basic problem": talent retention and what the talent practices.





I think that this 'small' passage from Failure Is Not An Option by Gene Kranz will explain the standard of technical leadership required for such ambitious and near impossible programs.
(Gene Kranz was the Lead Flight Director at NASA during the Apollo Program and later rose to become Director of Flight Operations during the Space Shuttle era)

* George Mueller was the Director of the Office of Manned Spaceflight from 1963 to 1969 and in effect, the head of the entire Apollo program.
Gene Kranz was a simple Flight Director in Houston.

And this, I believe, is what ultimately makes the difference between successful and failed engineering/technology programs. I can quote a dozen other examples too. An example closer to home would be the Pakistan nuclear program. A study reveals several heroes who provided the world-class leadership and inspiration needed by the technical personnel to do their jobs in the face of severe adversity and roadblocks.

Would love your comments on this @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD @Akh1112 @Falcon26 and anyone else
Those are some lofty ideals and we have a long way to go. It is my opinion (emphasis on opinion) that we should try to identify increasingly simple and basic problems because only those problems lend themselves to any kinds of workable solutions. For example, how do you propose you make the managers of our mil industry like Gene Kranz? I sure as heck don't know how.

But the problem that I identified above about talent retention and practice. Sure it sounds less fancy but I can think of at least one solution: start a loyal wingman UCAV competition under project Azm and invite consortium of pvt companies to compete. Promise two winners enough funds and access to APF factories to produce a prototype and promise the winner of the competition a contract of 60 UCAVs. This will EASILY employ hundreds and possibly thousands of very talented people for many years, and create an aerospace ecosystem for Pakistan. THIS is the kind of thing that builds "Aviation City", not hiring "ML engineer" and "FPGA Engineer" and "Accounts Officer" to put in an empty building in Attock.

Rant over.
 
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Actually, the issue of suspicion about AZM NGF and its success is the result of update or some news in this regard. Since, no one had any idea or info, we discuss like as if we don't even know what to produce. Let a news or a possible leak comes in, we will have a next goal to be disappointed. The cycle continues though.

On delay part, even if it's about corruption, the same wouldn't long last.
 
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And by practice I mean not at all. PAF guy gets a PhD in aerodynamics, comes back and what does he work on? Managing the assembly line of the JF-17. PAF guy gets a PhD in flight dynamics and control, comes back and what does he work on? Desk jobs doing paper analysis to keep busy.

So what's the issue here? The issue is that we do not have actual aerospace projects where talented people can work at - practice and hone their craft. So what's the solution
They seriously need some education/curriculum management. When they have no fund, they must carry out training of different thing. Perhaps, they can supervise simple BSc level project for other members so that they can remain sharp.

You know that too when Suparco had no funding, employees were playing counter strike
 
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The way it is planned right now, I agree. In my opinion the solution is a rethinking of the goals of the project. Some very smart people need to sit and analyze our capabilities, our niche in collaboration with international partners, and how to fill any small gaps in our capacity. Most importantly, we should not be hoping to fill FGFA sized gaps in our capability within ten years with 100 thousand dollars. The primary goal should be capacity building through smartly selected projects. For example the MALE program, excellent project. Build on that and develop a really dumb and cheap loyal wingman UCAV.




I feel as a nation that we live through so much collective trauma that we hang on for dear life to every piece of good news we can find. While the Erieye thing was impressive, it was a one off thing a decade ago. What capacity did it really build? Did we see anything happen with that capacity? I'm building to a point, trust me.



I will not even make it about all of those ideals of a good researcher. An even more basic requisite is PRACTICE. Literally, just practice. Take a PhD from MIT, and then put him in SUPARCO for 20 years. Take a PhD from QAU and put him in Boeing for 20 years. Who do you prefer to manage your R&D? I am sure there are very talented officers in the PAF who get PhDs from very reputable international universities. I personally know many.

Unfortunately, and I cannot stress the unfortunateness of this enough, how they practice their knowledge is what fails them. And by practice I mean not at all. PAF guy gets a PhD in aerodynamics, comes back and what does he work on? Managing the assembly line of the JF-17. PAF guy gets a PhD in flight dynamics and control, comes back and what does he work on? Desk jobs doing paper analysis to keep busy.

So what's the issue here? The issue is that we do not have actual aerospace projects where talented people can work at - practice and hone their craft. So what's the solution? Have numerous projects under numerous roofs. Keep these projects simple and achievable (like a loyal wingman UCAV) and involve the private sector so Pakistan can retain and keep in practice many more talented individuals.

If Pakistan can somehow employ 1000 engineers in a productive project for a decade who are free to move around companies (and not live under SPD rocks), that itself will create an aerospace industry regardless of what this project produces. That's my understanding of the "basic problem": talent retention and what the talent practices.






Those are some lofty ideals and we have a long way to go. It is my opinion (emphasis on opinion) that we should try to identify increasingly simple and basic problems because only those problems lend themselves to any kinds of workable solutions. For example, how do you propose you make the managers of our mil industry like Gene Kranz? I sure as heck don't know how.

But the problem that I identified above about talent retention and practice. Sure it sounds less fancy but I can think of at least one solution: start a loyal wingman UCAV competition under project Azm and invite consortium of pvt companies to compete. Promise two winners enough funds and access to APF factories to produce a prototype and promise the winner of the competition a contract of 60 UCAVs. This will EASILY employ hundreds and possibly thousands of very talented people for many years, and create an aerospace ecosystem for Pakistan. THIS is the kind of thing that builds "Aviation City", not hiring "ML engineer" and "FPGA Engineer" and "Accounts Officer" to put in an empty building in Attock.

Rant over.
In summation - it needs a change in culture where Pakistani do the job they are qualified, trained and joined for instead of interfering or working in position they are not or have no relation to.

There will always be the chai-samosa 10-4 variety but so long as the leadership is from the right qualifications and experience it would be fine.
Yehan leadership samajh leti hai ke chunke silayi aati hai tu textile mill lagana meray bain haath ka kaam hai
What can I say here? After all, I am the idiot who moved from the land of the $250 bulb to the land of the $640 toilet seat. :D
There is corruption in this land too - more sophisticated to avoid the additional checks and balances and I have first hand experience seeing bids change prices 30 seconds before closing. However, the key difference is when finally caught they are punished. The law IS applied however late - that is what makes the society work.
 
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Actually, the issue of suspicion about AZM NGF and its success is the result of update or some news in this regard. Since, no one had any idea or info, we discuss like as if we don't even know what to produce. Let a news or a possible leak comes in, we will have a next goal to be disappointed. The cycle continues though.

On delay part, even if it's about corruption, the same wouldn't long last.
Even the news that has come out isn’t impressive to say the least. This may turn out to be Pakistan’s version of the LCA program unless excellence in project management is applied along with taking “Yes men” out of the chain. It is a difficult pill for most Pakistanis to swallow when they have to say “I don’t know what to do” as it is taken as a negative insulting experience instead of a learning opportunity. Unfortunately, the corrective actions for AZM and many other projects go beyond the scope of AZM and this thread.
 
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Even the news that has come out isn’t impressive to say the least.

Worrisome but, how do you rate the positive outcome and dealing with the threat at hand? You may have some idea and I am sure if that


Unfortunately, the corrective actions for AZM and many other projects go beyond the scope of AZM and this thread.

Again, how do you see or suggest the right steering if situation? I know there's been lack of thinking out of the box or not to continue with yes sir mentality but, the yes sir comes under military domain. In short, for development and progress, may be it needs to be a private entity style administration. So what if I say that a lot has been changing in this area as well. Once being fried by spposedly feudalism but finally made out of it and even made many to think beyond of afsar shahi.
 
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They seriously need some education/curriculum management. When they have no fund, they must carry out training of different thing. Perhaps, they can supervise simple BSc level project for other members so that they can remain sharp.

You know that too when Suparco had no funding, employees were playing counter strike
SUPARCO employees play counter strike regardless :)

I don't think any amount of education/curriculum management can deal with the issue. You need honest to God things to do and not just tasks that are the technical equivalent of painting all the gumlas in a unit red or white based on the whims of the CO.

We need to do many more carefully selected projects. Projects should be:
1. Relatively cheap to do
2. Fill a niche somewhere
3. DO NOT need to be glamorous like FGFA or whatever. Think a very accurate attitude control thruster design or something.
4. Verifiable - you can say if it succeeded or not with someone responsible for success or failure. With huge nebulous programs like FGFA who is really responsible? Is joining TFX a failure or success? Impossible to quantify success here, only decades later we will realize oh we should've used this money elsewhere.

Numerous, smaller, verifiable projects will:
1. Build capacity
2. Retain capacity
3. Be accountable
In summation - it needs a change in culture where Pakistani do the job they are qualified, trained and joined for instead of interfering or working in position they are not or have no relation to.

There will always be the chai-samosa 10-4 variety but so long as the leadership is from the right qualifications and experience it would be fine.
Yehan leadership samajh leti hai ke chunke silayi aati hai tu textile mill lagana meray bain haath ka kaam hai
You need to have the right leadership and they need to make the right institution building decisions.
 
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