Possessing faith (Imaan in your heart) means you have?

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Fair enough...but one should start from themselves than project maybe?

One could use oneself as an example, but in the case of FH and myself (for example, given the subject of religious values) we already subscribe to the 'changed mindset' we are trying to encourage other Pakistanis to move towards.

FH and I could not really say that "I need to engage in self-introspection about how I am allowing my religious interpretations to color my life and the lives of those around me" - we are trying to get other Pakistanis to engage in similar self-introspection ...

 

[Dubious]

One could use oneself as an example, but in the case of FH and myself (for example, given the subject of religious values) we already subscribe to the 'changed mindset' we are trying to encourage other Pakistanis to move towards.

And what exactly is this changed mindset? You are agnostic...how is that a change from the adulterated version of Islam? Why the big jump from adulterated version of Islam to out of Islam instead of into Islam?

Now that will be the start of introspection of ones self....

FH and I could not really say that "I need to engage in self-introspection about how I am allowing my religious interpretations to color my life and the lives of those around me" - we are trying to get other Pakistanis to engage in similar self-introspection ..

How different is that from a Mullah who also wants his version to influence and colour other's lives?

Many Pakistanis are too occupied with paying increasing taxes and reading about bomb blasts and hating 1 ethnicity to be bothered about introspection

 

[Zabaniyah]

And what exactly is this changed mindset? You are agnostic...how is that a change from the adulterated version of Islam? Why the big jump from adulterated version of Islam to out of Islam instead of into Islam?

Now that will be the start of introspection of ones self....



How different is that from a Mullah who also wants his version to influence and colour other's lives?

Many Pakistanis are too occupied with paying increasing taxes and reading about bomb blasts and hating 1 ethnicity to be bothered about introspection

I believe he is implying enlightenment.

I wonder what Islam's position is on the matter.

 

[Dubious]

I believe he is implying enlightenment.

I wonder what Islam's position is on the matter.

Enlightenment....Islam encourages one to gain wisdom....infact its all over the Quran...do you not heed wisdom...ponder in the signs of thy lord is a common verse...

 

[Zabaniyah]

Enlightenment....Islam encourages one to gain wisdom....infact its all over the Quran...do you not heed wisdom...ponder in the signs of thy lord is a common verse...

I apologize since I'm no expert on religion/spirituality.

In that regard I don't see any enlightened Muslim brotherhood in my country. It's hard to explain really.

If one is to truly gain wisdom, and the society moves altogether as one, wouldn't that society move forward instead of moving backwards? Why do Muslims in general have problems that are unique to them?

 

[rockstar08]

first you explain what is Conspiracy theories .. ?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

..Now that will be the start of introspection of ones self....

I have engaged in self introspection about what made me pursue the direction I did when it comes to 'faith', and I am satisfied with the conclusions I have arrived at. I am an agnostic because I do not begrudge anyone their faith (or lack of) as long as their beliefs do not negatively impact the lives of others. It is a simple enough philosophy in my view.

Now, back to the broader socio-cultural problems in Pakistan, as I see them - the blatant discrimination against Ahmadis and other groups considered 'non Muslims', the repression of freedom of thought, the intolerance promoted under the guise of 'religious sensitivities', enshrined in our constitution no less, make clear that Pakistan as a nation and people has a lot of 'self introspection' to engage in in order to rectify the wrongs being done today through a change in our laws and the mindset of our people.

I am not suggesting that people become 'agnostics or atheists', but I am suggesting the people engage in self introspection to understand how laws and attitudes against Ahmadis, blasphemy, apostasy, non-Muslims holding the highest office etc. are indicative of a regressive and diseased society and nation.

How different is that from a Mullah who also wants his version to influence and colour other's lives?

The difference is that I welcome people challenging my views and will not resort to threats of 'blasphemy' to shut down those who disagree, nor will I argue that those who challenge me first get certified as 'religious scholars or experts'.

The views I advocate are views that call for people to respect others, respect their faith, their individual choices (so long as there is no tangible negative impact on someone else). The Mullah argues the opposite of that - the Mullah argues for 'exclusivity', that one set of people (Muslims or a particular sect of Muslims) are superior to everyone else, that the only way to 'salvation' is HIS way. I don't really care which faith (or no faith) someone follows, as long as they treat others with respect and equality.

Many Pakistanis are too occupied with paying increasing taxes and reading about bomb blasts and hating 1 ethnicity to be bothered about introspection

Without that introspection Pakistani society will not change ...

 

[Dubious]

I apologize since I'm no expert on religion/spirituality.

In that regard I don't see any enlightened Muslim brotherhood in my country. It's hard to explain really.

If one is to truly gain wisdom, and the society moves altogether as one, wouldn't that society move forward instead of moving backwards? Why do Muslims in general have problems that are unique to them?

coz we dont unite...we are divided on too many grounds:

Nationalism...
if that wasnt enough then we have

Shia- Sunni

If that wasnt enough then we have further

school of thoughts

then we also have the rich and poor division

then we have the ethnicity divisions

and so on!

Like you said...society moves altogether as one, wouldn't that society move forward instead of moving backwards? ...Muslims are not united so they cant move together as one...and hence moving backwards

I have engaged in self introspection about what made me pursue the direction I did when it comes to 'faith', and I am satisfied with the conclusions I have arrived at. I am an agnostic because I do not begrudge anyone their faith (or lack of) as long as their religious beliefs do not negatively impact the lives of others. It is a simple enough philosophy, yet the blatant discrimination against Ahmadis and other groups considered 'non Muslims', the repression of freedom of thought, the intolerance promoted under the guise of 'religious sensitivities', enshrined in our constitution no less, make clear that Pakistan as a nation and people has a lot of 'self introspection' to engage in in order to rectify the wrongs being done today through a change in our laws and the mindset of our people.

Fair enough...none of this makes one agnostic...in fact that is allowed in Islam

I am not suggesting that people become 'agnostics or atheists', but I am suggesting the people engage in self introspection to understand how laws and attitudes against Ahmadis, blasphemy, apostasy, non-Muslims holding the highest office etc. are indicative of a regressive and diseased society and nation.

Many day to day men do...These divisions only benefit 2 groups :

1) the everyday Mullah who wouldnt even know how to read Surah Fatiha properly...

2) the everyday politician who is 1 step above on the ladder and cant even say Bismillah...

Mind you from the real definition of agnostic...both probably fit in well...coz if they feared god or believed in HIS existence they would atleast not behave the way they do...

For them their god is fame or money or a combination of both...

All that you address to yourself is allowed in Islam

The difference is that I welcome people challenging my views and will not resort to threats of 'blasphemy' to shut down those who disagree, nor will I argue that those who challenge me first get certified as 'religious scholars or experts'.

Many day to day men do that...doesnt make you take a special title...Plus all that is allowed in Islam...

The views I advocate are views that call for people to respect others, respect their faith, their individual choices (so long as there is no tangible negative impact on someone else). The Mullah argues the opposite of that - the Mullah argues for 'exclusivity', that one set of people (Muslims or a particular sect of Muslims) are superior to everyone else, that the only way to 'salvation' is HIS way. I don't really care which faith (or no faith) someone follows, as long as they treat others with respect and equality.

I can very well prove from the Quran all this is allowed in Islam...hence nothing special to make you claim yourself as "agnostic"


Agnostic cant be Muslim coz an Agonist is a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God....while in Islam we know that God exists and has 99 attributes...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Fair enough...none of this makes one agnostic...in fact that is allowed in Islam


Many day to day men do...These divisions only benefit 2 groups :

1) the everyday Mullah who wouldnt even know how to read Surah Fatiha properly...

2) the everyday politician who is 1 step above on the ladder and cant even say Bismillah...

Mind you from the real definition of agnostic...both probably fit in well...coz if they feared god or believed in HIS existence they would atleast not behave the way they do...

For them their god is fame or money or a combination of both...

All that you address to yourself is allowed in Islam

Many day to day men do that...doesnt make you take a special title...Plus all that is allowed in Islam...
I can very well prove from the Quran all this is allowed in Islam...hence nothing special to make you claim yourself as "agnostic"


Agnostic cant be Muslim coz an Agonist is a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God....while in Islam we know that God exists and has 99 attributes...

I don't really care which 'category' you think my beliefs place me in, whether you think I am agnostic or not - the point is that these are MY beliefs and MY identity. I consider myself an agnostic, I don't really care whether you do or not, but I do find it offensive that you consider it appropriate to issue declarations on what I am or am not.

I am not questioning your beliefs or whether they make you a Muslim, Hindu, Ahmadi or whatever - that is your business. It becomes MY business when your religious views in some way negatively impact MY life and/or the lives of others - the laws against Blasphemy, Ahmadis etc.

Your response here is a perfect illustration of the need for Muslims to engage in self-introspection as a community. Worry about your own views and how they could be impacting others around you instead of trying to 'categorize' others.

 

[Dubious]

See, that is the problem - your entire response here is about 'questioning my beliefs' - I don't really care which 'category' you think my beliefs place me in, whether you think I am agnostic or not - the point is that these are MY beliefs and MY identity. I consider myself an agnostic, I don't really care whether you do or not, but I do find it offensive that you consider it appropriate to issue declarations on what I am or am not.

I didnt question your "belief" but the title you gave it and I gave reasons too....Maybe you need to get over the paranoia of being questioned regarding your belief! Plus there is no declarations...You are the 1 who categorized yourself as an agnostic....not me...So I only asked why this title while the arguments you presented that you think distinguish you to fit in that very category fit in as a Muslim too...Hence it is only natural for a person whose brain does think to question how so?!

I am not questioning your beliefs or whether they make you a Muslim, Hindu, Ahmadi or whatever - that is your business. It becomes MY business when your religious views in some way negatively impact MY life and/or the lives of others - the laws against Blasphemy, Ahmadis etc.

No you are not questioning it but implying it has these things (the laws against Blasphemy, Ahmadis) associated with it!

Your response here is a perfect illustration of the need for Muslims to engage in self-introspection as a community. Worry about your own views and how they could be impacting others around you instead of trying to 'categorize' others.

It is not I who categorized you but yourself who proudly claims to be an agnostic when the only features that you present are that of Islam and not even of being agnostic...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I didnt question your "belief" but the title you gave it and I gave reasons too....Maybe you need to get over the paranoia of being questioned regarding your belief! Plus there is no declarations...You are the 1 who categorized yourself as an agnostic....not me...So I only asked why this title while the arguments you presented that you think distinguish you to fit in that very category fit in as a Muslim too...Hence it is only natural for a person whose brain does think to question how so?!

Correct - "I" gave myself that title as representative of MY beliefs, just as you can call yourself whatever you want. I am not questioning your identity and I don't expect you to question mine. If you want to argue about actual views, that is fine, but telling me whether or not I am agnostic or not is offensive and characteristic of the malaise afflicting many Pakistanis, represented in their intolerance towards the Ahmadi community, who they cannot even bare to see calling themselves 'Muslim'.

No you are not questioning it but implying it has these things (the laws against Blasphemy, Ahmadis) associated with it!

I am not implying that YOU in particular support those views, but I am arguing the many Pakistanis do and the lack of support for constitutional amendments removing these restrictions and ending the intolerance towards Ahmadis by allowing them to call themselves Muslims and their places of worship mosques, or whatever they want to call them.

It is not I who categorized you but yourself who proudly claims to be an agnostic when the only features that you present are that of Islam and not even of being agnostic...

You should read your comments again:
"I can very well prove from the Quran all this is allowed in Islam...hence nothing special to make you claim yourself as "agnostic"
At no point did I argue that XYZ faith (Islam, Hindusim etc.) does not promote the values I elucideted. What I said was that the majority of the interpretations of Islam we see today do not follow these values. It matters not what you can 'prove' from the Quran if the majority of Muslims, and the constitution of Pakistan, do not promote those same values.

Again, it is my right to identify myself as whatever I please - I have not at any point suggested that my views are solely those of an Agnostic, and not those promoted by Islam. It is you who are claiming that 'my views are not those of an agnostic but those of Islam', and are therefore attempting to categorize my beliefs and usurp them solely for the belief system you support.

 

[Dubious]

Correct - "I" gave myself that title as representative of MY beliefs, just as you can call yourself whatever you want. I am not questioning your identity and I don't expect you to question mine. If you want to argue about actual views, that is fine, but telling me whether or not I am agnostic or not is offensive and characteristic of the malaise afflicting many Pakistanis, represented in their intolerance towards the Ahmadi community, who they cannot even bare to see calling themselves 'Muslim'.

I think you are jumping a lot of words...

How is it offensive to state that what you "stated" (only god and you know what you belief I can only work on what you typed) was similar to what is allowed in Islam?

I am not implying that YOU in particular support those views, but I am arguing the many Pakistanis do and the lack of support for constitutional amendments removing these restrictions and ending the intolerance towards Ahmadis by allowing them to call themselves Muslims and their places of worship mosques, or whatever they want to call them.

Well that indeed is wrong...its a problem with many people to play religious politics....

You should read your comments again:
"I can very well prove from the Quran all this is allowed in Islam...hence nothing special to make you claim yourself as "agnostic"
At no point did I argue that XYZ faith (Islam, Hindusim etc.) does not promote the values I elucideted. What I said was that the majority of the interpretations of Islam we see today do not follow these values. It matters not what you can 'prove' from the Quran if the majority of Muslims, and the constitution of Pakistan, do not promote those same values.

It does matter....Because if one can prove from the Quran it literally means that it is a part of Islam and if it a part of Islam you know what there is to know...If you know what there is to know then only you can raise awareness...If you can raise awareness and if you are among those who can bring change....it is a chain effect...

Again, it is my right to identify myself as whatever I please - I have not at any point suggested that my views are solely those of an Agnostic, and not those promoted by Islam. It is you who are claiming that 'my views are not those of an agnostic but those of Islam', and are therefore attempting to categorize my beliefs and usurp them solely for the belief system you support.

Its not a belief system I support but if the very definition of agnosticism differs from what you claimed under agnosticism... then what can one say? All I said is the definition you gave me suits more on Islam then on agnosticism ...

How is that wrong unless I have a wrong understanding of the word Agnostic then pry do correct me!

 

[Aepsilons]

Possessing faith (Iman in your heart) means you have?

you have "hope".

It is cause and effect.

cause is "faith", and effect is hope.


and when you are hopeful then you change from inside out.
that you can be Muslim, Hindu, Christian, a Jew, or Buddhist, that you can have same faith resulting in same hope.

that you are filled with positive energy
that you are constantly trying to change yourself for the better
that you are studying new books, new thoughts,

that you are appreciating art, and architecture
that you enjoy music and drama
That you have your creative juices flowing

That you love your fellow human being without hesitation



or perhaps it is all worthless chatter as written above.

And in reality

An "iman-wala" must go around carrying a big stick, blowing up girls school, shooting girl students in the head
establishing khooni khilafa. lie and cheat, but go to hujj and umra like so many Pakistanis do these days.
that an imaan-wala must believe in conspiracy theories
that an imaan-wala must believe that the whole world is out to destroy him
that an imaan-wala must live in fear.



So what does having Imaan mean in your life.

Please do not quote Quran hadees in a blind copy-n-paste. Share your personal thoughts.

from your heart please. Where faith resides (symbolically).

Happy Ramazan to all.




@Slav Defence, @Luftwaffe, @WebMaster, @Jungibaaz, @jaibi, @notsuperstitious, @Azlan Haider, @ajpirzada, @DESERT FIGHTER, @AgNoStiC MuSliM, @Jazzbot

A very deep personal introspection, my friend. In my honest opinion, hope and faith , is the symbolism of , or i might even dare to say, the unseen bond we have to the Almighty. I am a man of science, research, and empiricism. My professional line of work dictates this so --, however, I reserve part of myself to the idea of an unseen , yet forgiving God.

Some of my colleagues at work would probably smile , or retort on my personal beliefs, but, that's what makes it unique. They are my beliefs. My hopes, and my faith.

Thanks for this thread.
Peace and Blessings to you.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Enlightenment....Islam encourages one to gain wisdom....infact its all over the Quran...do you not heed wisdom...ponder in the signs of thy lord is a common verse...

Well said.

OP is based on the concepts from holy scriptures including Quran, Bible, Torah, Gita, and Buddhist teachings.

Thank you.

 

[Indos]

Iman is working in subconsciousness, more conviction in ALLAH means more strength, confidence, motivation, and less dependence on people psychologically

Iman will bring light and "izzah" (dignity) to the heart of the holder

More Iman means more satisfied, happy, and strong the heart is

Actually I really feel the difference.....

Tasawuf/Sufism is the art and knowledge of how to get better iman

Sufism/ Tasawuf (Islamic mysticism)