Pervez Hoodbhoy's Secular Delusion

[Hassan_Ishtiaq]

Although one can read between the lines to notice that he has a deep prejudice against the interference of religion in the affairs of the state but he has strong arguments for that prejudice.

That's a non sequitur.

He believes that a Pakistan free from the chains of religious "oppression"

Which "Caliph" is "religiously" "oppressing" Pakistanis? Most of it's elites and leaders are all western educated LOL

Now the OP comes with arguments such as failing marriages, legal bestiality in Canada (which is not true), and mental issues amoung the "Secular People" of the West as the reason for calling the Western system corrupt and a failure.

Well why can't he use these as examples of failure of secular system? You lot are quick to use al-Qaeda and ISIS or Taliban to caricaturize Islam and Muslims, but when we do it you want to cry how its unfair?

Then OP moves forward by naming "failed secular states" like Mexico, Liberia and Romania without considering other factors such as Mexico being a trillion dollar economy with ongoing drug wars and overpopulation, corruption and a culture of laziness in Romania, and an environmental catastrophe ongoing in Liberia due to deforestation, as one of the major reasons for their failures.

Yes, all of these are reasons for the failure of the secular system, which Pakistani liberals will have to believe is the cure-all for all societal issues in Pakistan, but yet the vast majority of secular countries, Mexico, Romania and Liberia, to name a few, are either in just as bad a state or even far more worse than Pakistan, despite their secularism.

You are not "researching" your conspiracy theory. You are just "conclusion Shopping" your prejudiced hypothesis.

You are aware that this very much applies to your own post? Self projection much?

But reading Hoodbhoy's articles always inspire me to look and learn from the West. I will not be learning "secularism" or anything that limits the rule of law of Islam in a state, but I will definitely learn from the West, the way how the made sure that religion does not become a hurdle in human evolution and progress in the field of science and technology.

We just need to open our minds to realize that Islam (The Law of Allah on the Land) can go hand in hand with 21st century progress.

Please try to learn that Islam is a religion till the end of time and without an expiry date.

Contradiction much? I think you are confused or talking out from both ends of your mouth: "religion is a hurdle to scientific progress", "Islam has no expiry date", "I will not be learning "secularism" or anything that limits the rule of law of Islam".

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

this will my last response to you. Basically you are saying that true Islam has the answer for everything in life other than invasions, dictators and interventions. Ok

Give Muslims a chance to bring an Islamic system, without interference, imposing terrorism, nor corrupt puppets, then you will see the Islamic model in action.

For example, most problems in Pakistan are directly related to the WoT and corrupt secular political parties from the past few decades.

Euthanasia is also legal in many of these enlightened 21st century modern progressive blah blah blah states. You just need a prescription from psychiatrist to legally commit suicide with the assistance of a doctor, even if you are physically healthy.
Such a 21st century thing.

Incest is also legal.
Same sex "couples" are allowed to adopt kids. Just imagine the psychological trauma being inflicted on such children who are most likely also victims of abuse at the hands of their gay "parents".

Lack of purpose and lack of morality has increased the use of contraceptives and protection. This has led to a significant decrease in population growth. Population growth in the negative means that they will rely more and more on immigrants even for the provision of basic services in their countries.

Mentally ill cucked males and single mothers is the apogee of this civilization.

These libbus in our countries are daft. They erroneously equate 21st century Western cultural values with progress. These "values" are not the reasons behind the accumulation of material wealth by the West. The same superior West plundered Americas(particularly South America), Africa and other poor regions and committed genocides; their plunder of poor regions and genocides still continue to this day - but, but but they are morally superior and Islam is barbarian.

The West which itself hypocritically imposes restrictions on freedom of speech, critical thinking and freedom of religion is portrayed as the paragon of tolerance by our coconuts.

The Western capitalist system is falling. COVID revealed the big cracks in this system. White supremacist fascism is a natural response to this unchecked liberality. So too are the socialist/anarchist voices in the West. Both are signs of a serious deficiency of a concrete foundation and lack of ability to maintain a lasting system on Western secular liberalism.

We need only wait a few years, and all the cracks will cause this sham of a system to fall apart.

Islam offers the most sustainable and perfect system for humanity, but the deficiency of Muslims to establish it is a whole other matter. In sha Allah, we will see the genuine Islamic system function in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Turkey, Libya, Indonesia soon.

 

[Desert Fox]

The West which itself hypocritically imposes restrictions on freedom of speech, critical thinking and freedom of religion is portrayed as the paragon of tolerance by our coconuts.

Libturds in Pakistan complain about "Islamists" being intolerant, yet they will have no problem when their secular White overlords starve to death 500,000 Iraqi children simply because their crime was to be born in the wrong country. Whatever happened to not targeting innocent lives?? Whatever happened to the morally superior West??

There is no free-speech in the west; you cannot insult the modern gods of Western secularism: homosexuals/LGBT, pedophiles, feminism, etc without a lynch mob or a terrorist organization like AntiFa targeting you and your family, and at the best losing your livelihood and thus your home and shelter and starving to death on the streets.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Well why can't he use these as examples of failure of secular system? You lot are quick to use al-Qaeda and ISIS or Taliban to caricaturize Islam and Muslims, but when we do it you want to cry how its unfair?

They have prematurely tried to usurp the conversation and brainwash our children and women, but now the state has taken severe actions against them. They remain a small, toxic number of people, they can easily be crushed.

In a society like Pakistan, an atheistic revolution is simply impossible. These charlatans are no better than the USSR in its heyday, which visited terrible oppression on Afghans, and forced Pakistan's hand.

Pakistan is probably the one society in the world most immune to communist rhetoric, we have a bitter history with these people, and are very proud of having taken down the USSR at its height.

 

[The Accountant]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2851754831709887

Pervez is at it again! Hoodbhoy, like all Westernized modernists, recycles the same few talking points ad nauseam.

1. Islam is backwards. Western secularism is the answer!
2. Islamic education makes people dumb. Western secular education makes people smart!
3. Islamic institutions are associated with terrorism. Western secular institutions are associated with prosperity and progress!

That pretty much summarizes everything Hoodbhoy has ever written in his life.

Such simplistic points might have impressed Western-intoxicated dullards 50 years ago. But it is embarrassing for him to keep trotting out the same lines in this day and age, now that most people are acutely aware of the empty promises of Western "enlightenment."

How ironic that Pervez sings the praises of "critical thinking," yet he is unable to think critically about whether "parroting" the liberal secularism of the West will yield prosperity and happiness for Pakistan or any Muslim country.

For those of us living in the enlightened secular West, we can only chuckle at the child-like naivete of anyone who thinks the West is a utopia all should aspire to.

Turn to any news channel to see American cities literally burning to the ground as protests rage. Watch the violent divisions ripping the country apart. All these violent protesters enjoyed a liberal secular education without the influence of the scary molvi boogey monster of Hoodbhoy's imagination.

The average American is thousands of dollars in debt, lives pay check to check, slogging endless hours at a job he hates, the only thing he looks forward to is the weekend, where he will probably sit in front of his laptop and watch Netflix or order some junk he doesn't need from Amazon. He is living the "perfect" life of obedient, senseless consumerism his secular education has so perfectly prepared him for!

Think of the caricatures of the depressed consumerist alone in his apartment with no family, no faith, no future. Believe it or not, that caricature is the reality for the majority.

And those who do get married, they fare no better. What kind of love can you have for someone you know has been loved and dumped by a dozen (two dozen?) others before you? This is the living nightmare produced by Western secular values. Marriage is seen as such a dead end that most are now opting to avoid it entirely. Many children grow up completely cut off from at least one parent. Many have no clue who their fathers even are! Forget about extended family and the comfort, joy, and support that comes with it.

Liberal secularism not only destroys the akhira with its militant atheism. It also destroys every human aspect of what makes life of the dunya beautiful -- committed love, a happy and devoted family, the sense of purpose that comes with serving one's Creator. These are luxuries most Westerners no longer even know about, let alone enjoy.

But liberal secularism at least brings prosperity and that counts for something, right? No, even this is not true. Many countries have accepted the devil's offer of sacrificing religion and traditional values for the promise of material progress. But Iblis, of course, is a liar.

What amazing progress does a secular country like Romania enjoy? What booming riches does a secular country like Mexico enjoy? What economic advancement does a secular country like Liberia enjoy?

If religion is regressive and secularization and secular education are the path to economic progress, why is it that so many 100% secularized countries have languished for decades at the bottom of the development list?

In reality, the secularization of these countries only serves the Western imperial masters who suck these countries dry, usurping their resources and cheap labor in exchange for advancement that never comes.

It is the oldest trick in the book.

But it is a trick that is made more effective when the Western-educated elites of those countries peddle propaganda to the masses, trying to convince the people -- on behalf of their Western masters -- to abandon their religion, abandon their traditional values, abandon deen.

Elites like Hoodbhoy have tried playing this trick on the Muslims for long enough. But no one is falling for it anymore.

It is time for these old propagandists to retire.

"Whoever makes himself blind against the mention/remembrance [dhikr] of al-RaHmān, We assign for him a devil who accompanies him all the time. And they (the devils) prevent such people from the (right) way, while they deem themselves to be on the right path. Until when such a person will come to Us, he will say (to the devil), “If only there were the distance of East and West between me and you, because you were the worst companion!" And (it will be said to such people,) “Since you were wrongdoers, it will never benefit you today that you are sharing the punishment with each other.” [Quran 43:36-39]

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@Alternatiiv @Hiraa @truthfollower

@AUz @The Accountant

Very nicely written.

I can understand people like hoodbhoy as they have to receive funds to bark or other perks but what about others. People like @Alternatiiv .

Why cant they see there is no relationship between following religion and pursuing science and technology and modern way of doing business.

Ok lets summarize the key problems of our society and then identify if this is due to islam or our own shortcomings.

1. Trade deficit. What the hell trade deficit has to do with islam. Islam or no islam if u dont work and manufacture your own goods u will remain in trade deficit.

2. Bribery. Bribery is a common problem in the society. Does islam allows bribery? Infact a follower of islam consider it a big sin. If we change to secularisim then will it effect bribery? No it might increase.

3. Science and technology. Is there any corelation with islam and science. No there is no corelation. U can be a big scientist and a practicing muslim. I dont understand how will we get advancement in science of technology by becoming secular.

List can go on and on.

The only way of development is to work hard on the problems we have.

If we battled with the terrorist TTP then we have also seent terrorist MQM and BLA.

MQM and BLA are both secular. Then why they became terrorist and extremists? As pee theory of hoodbhoy and his followers there is no tendency of exteemisim other than islam then why BLA and MQM became terrorists?

 

[Desert Fox]

Give Muslims a chance to bring an Islamic system, without interference, imposing terrorism, nor corrupt puppets, then you will see the Islamic model in action.

For example, most problems in Pakistan are directly related to the WoT and corrupt secular political parties from the past few decades.



The Western capitalist system is falling. COVID revealed the big cracks in this system. White supremacist fascism is a natural response to this unchecked liberality. So too are the socialist/anarchist voices in the West. Both are signs of a serious deficiency of a concrete foundation and lack of ability to maintain a lasting system on Western secular liberalism.

We need only wait a few years, and all the cracks will cause this sham of a system to fall apart.

Islam offers the most sustainable and perfect system for humanity, but the deficiency of Muslims to establish it is a whole other matter. In sha Allah, we will see the genuine Islamic system function in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Turkey, Libya, Indonesia soon.

Pakistani liberals are perhaps the most daft, illogical and irrational of the bunch. In fact even the term, the concept "Pakistani Liberal' is an oxymoron, like "Muslim Atheist". What makes it more pathetically sad is that they have happily adopted the ideology and worldview of a people (the West) which brutalized and subjugated their ancestors for centuries. Sever case of stockholm syndrome doesn't even cut it.

 

[Psychic]

Libturds in Pakistan complain about "Islamists" being intolerant, yet they will have no problem when their secular White overlords starve to death 500,000 Iraqi children simply because their crime was to be born in the wrong country. Whatever happened to not targeting innocent lives?? Whatever happened to the morally superior West??

The number of innocent people killed by AQ and ISIS is not even a fraction of those killed by the secular US and Israel. And I am talking about civilian people here. Yet their moral values are somehow superior even when they enslave, loot, plunder and invade other countries leaving only death and destruction in their aftermath. For them, Buddha statues are of far greater importance than hundreds of thousands of Muslim children.

I haven't even started on their "non-violent" methods of plunder - read John Perkings.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Very nicely written.

I can understand people like hoodbhoy as they have to receive funds to bark or other perks but what about others. People like @Alternatiiv .

Why cant they see there is no relationship between following religion and pursuing science and technology and modern way of doing business.

Ok lets summarize the key problems of our society and then identify if this is due to islam or our own shortcomings.

1. Trade deficit. What the hell trade deficit has to do with islam. Islam or no islam if u dont work and manufacture your own goods u will remain in trade deficit.

2. Bribery. Bribery is a common problem in the society. Does islam allows bribery? Infact a follower of islam consider it a big sin. If we change to secularisim then will it effect bribery? No it might increase.

3. Science and technology. Is there any corelation with islam and science. No there is no corelation. U can be a big scientist and a practicing muslim. I dont understand how will we get advancement in science of technology by becoming secular.

List can go on and on.

The only way of development is to work hard on the problems we have.

If we battled with the terrorist TTP then we have also seent terrorist MQM and BLA.

MQM and BLA are both secular. Then why they became terrorist and extremists? As pee theory of hoodbhoy and his followers there is no tendency of exteemisim other than islam then why BLA and MQM became terrorists?

Islamic teachings are a good base to add legitimacy for change and to push moral values.

Some aspects which can be fixed via religious teachings

-respect for women,children, elderly, orphans, intersex (hujra,) poor, refugees

-viewing other ethnicities with respect and love, combating racism in society

-respect for christians and other religious minorities as a result of Islamic scripture

-combating corruption, fraud, bribery, kickbacks, and the nature of greed in general

-enhancing relations between relatives and family members

-respect for parents. Giving parents their rights to choose spouses (ending illicit relationships.)

-promoting women's rights and promotion of gender segregation giving less chances for rape, abduction, and extramarital affairs, teenage abortions, etc.

-controlling drug problems, gambling, alcoholism

-combating domestic abuse, and promoting better behavior of spouses with each other

-presenting the proper knowledge of Islam to dissuade and prevent people from embracing opportunists which try to brainwash youth

-raising the society's religious literacy to better recognize false preachers and to avoid strife

and many other benefits.

 

[Desert Fox]

The number of innocent people killed by AQ and ISIS is not even a fraction of those killed by the secular US and Israel. And I am talking about civilian people here. Yet their moral values are somehow superior even when they enslave, loot, plunder and invade other countries leaving only death and destruction in their aftermath. For them, Buddha statues are of far greater importance than killing Muslim children.

I haven't even started on their "non-violent" methods of plunder - read John Perkings.

The irony of AQ and ISIS is that even these are the spawns of Western intervention within the Muslim world. Historically in the olden days of Islamic civilization radical and extremist movements were nipped in the bud or chased to the fringes of Islamic civilization during the various Caliphates and Sultanates of the past, like the Khwarij or the Hashashins.

But during the last few decades the modern-day successors of these extremist movements have been propped up, and received funding from Western governments to justify their continued presence and colonization within Muslim countries to prevent genuine Islamic revival from taking place while pushing for Western NGO's to promote Liberal ideology at the grassroots level.

 

[Psychic]

Pakistani liberals are perhaps the most daft, illogical and irrational of the bunch. In fact even the term, the concept "Pakistani Liberal' is an oxymoron, like "Muslim Atheist". What makes it more pathetically sad is that they have happily adopted the ideology and worldview of a people (the West) which brutalized and subjugated their ancestors for centuries. Sever case of stockholm syndrome doesn't even cut it.

The vanquished always want to imitate the victor in his distinctive characteristics, his dress, his occupations, and all his other conditions and customs................. It considers him perfect, either because it is impressed by the respect it has for him, or because it erroneously assumes that its own subservience to him is not due to the nature of defeat but to the perfection of the victor.

- Ibn Khaldun​

 

[Desert Fox]

The vanquished always want to imitate the victor in his distinctive characteristics, his dress, his occupations, and all his other conditions and customs................. It considers him perfect, either because it is impressed by the respect it has for him, or because it erroneously assumes that its own subservience to him is not due to the nature of defeat but to the perfection of the victor.

- Ibn Khaldun​

In a nut-shell, Pakistani Liberals, like the Mullah caricature they hate so much, are blindly following their Western master whom they perceive to be above scrutiny. Basically Pakistani Liberals are secular "Mullahs"

@Alternatiiv @truthfollower @doorstar those Mullahs you guys hate so much are your own reflection after all

 

[LeGenD]

WEST is not perfect; not even close. Muslims should be weary of Western philosophies which contradict Islam.

Unfortunately; hardly any society is perfect in this day and age; decay everywhere.

Islamic countries need to adopt a political system which should pave way for those individuals to be eligible for 'elections' who are well-versed in Islam as well as have scientific mindset. These are the kind who can fix DECAY in a society and steer it forward in the manner it should be in theory.

However, that is not the case in practice.

Modern-age politics is dominated by morally bankrupt ELITES and MONEY in many countries including Pakistan.

Yeah, like the Iraq invasion 2003, the destabilization of Libya, the intervention In Syria, the invasion of Iraq. Nothing to do with Western governments invading these countries under false pretexts or supporting terrorist organizations or propping up brutal dictators. It's all Islams fault

1. Intervention in Iraq happened in part due to works of the esteemed and righteous "Saddam Hussein."
2. Intervention in Syria happened in part due to works of the esteemed and righteous "Assad regime."
3. Intervention in Libya happened in part due to works of the esteemed and righteous "Qaddafi regime."

All are/were byproducts of the UGLY legacy of the Cold War era which utterly ERODED Islamic identity and brotherhood in the long-term.

No, none of that is Islam's fault.

The kind of exemplary leaders modern-age Islamic societies are producing on the other hand...

The (EVIL) WEST will definitely capitalize on such weaknesses, my friend. There is the whole MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX to appease....

Now let us talk about Afghanistan - another MODEL society....

 

[Desert Fox]

1. Intervention in Iraq happened due to works of the esteemed and righteous "Saddam Hussein."
2. Intervention in Syria happened due to works of the esteemed and righteous "Assad regime."
3. Intervention in Libya happened due to works of the esteemed and righteous "Qaddafi regime."

All are/were byproducts of the UGLY legacy of the Cold War era which utterly ERODED Islamic identity and brotherhood in the long-term.

No, none of that is Islam's fault.

The kind of examplary leaders modern-age Islamic societies are producing on the other hand...

WEST will definitely capitalize on such weaknesses, my friend. There is MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX to appease....

Although i agree with you that these leaders were/are residues of European colonialism; its just a case of Liberal Secular West disposing of one stooge in favor of another or when that particualr leader and country have long since become politically expedient. In the end, no matter how one looks at it; secular west has blood on its hands of millions of innocents, as much as our Pakistani liberals would like us to believe in its alleged moral "superiority".

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Islamic countries need to adopt a political system which should pave way for those individuals to be eligible for 'elections' who are well-versed in Islam as well as have scientific mindset. These are the kind who can fix DECAY in a society and steer it forward in the manner it should be in theory.

This is the correct view, thanks brother.

If Muslims want to achieve success, we should strive for both dunya and akhirat, as our master (moulana) Mustafa saws has told us to do.

Islam does not contradict science, and actually it functions in conjunction with reason and logic, unlike the clergies or monks of other faiths. Islam is very at-home with a globalized ecosystem and respects the right of both private ownership/circulation of wealth in equal measure.

That we have fallen short as Muslims is no slight unto Islam, but to us ourselves due to the shortage of our character and our insatiable greed and corruption, which flies in the face of all Islamic teachings.

Pakistan can become the first example of such a state, as our Quaid e Azam wanted us to become, a light and salvation to all the Muslim nations of the world, to show the strength of the Islamic civilization and culture, which can function in the modern world and prosper.

 

[Psychic]

Whatever happened to not targeting innocent lives??

It's OK if you are doing so by pressing the red button on a joystick. But not OK if you use a knife to slit someone's throat. That is their excuse for droning, bombing and shelling carried out by their gora masters.