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Parsis and Hindutva's Ethnic Nationalism in India

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with all the tech edge US still failed in Afghanistan..conflicts are won by the side that are ready to sacrifice more...pampered children growing up in opulent times and rolling in sexual promiscuity, won't be ready to die for their cause
US failed because it exceeded the remit. It entered Afghanistan to find Osama. It then changed its agenda to enforce democracy in Afghanistan.
You cannot force a political system or regime on another country. It should be left for them to decide. They did not learn the lessons from Vietnam or other wars.
Having said that this war was on Afghanistan's soil so Afghanistan had home ground advantage, and they could prepare the pitch that suits their bowlers. Afghanistan or any muslim nation cannot beat US on a neutral venue.
 
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with all the tech edge US still failed in Afghanistan..conflicts are won by the side that are ready to sacrifice more...pampered children growing up in opulent times and rolling in sexual promiscuity, won't be ready to die for their cause

bingo. more muslims are ready to sacrifice to change muslims situation in the world order. despite all the challenges or recent centuries (colonialism, lack of tech edge, dictators, poverty, etc) the muslims are still here and growing and our identity is still here. if anything with social media and internet its easier to make our identity stronger and become more united than we have been in centuries.
Afghanistan or any muslim nation cannot beat US on a neutral venue.

muslims dont care for neutral venues. we are only interested in our land and what happens here.
 
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Thank you. Thats what we want too.

but, neutral venues can become home venues as the decades roll by due to birth rates, migration and conversion. and then...

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Huge (Tata Birla) parsi stake in India economy, and its way of worship. Explains why its aligned with Hindutva.
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i am working, not jobless. got stuff to do.

as for parsis, they are finished. the fire extinguished long ago, their god was proven to be a lie, and now the castoffs are nothing but indians now after marrying indians for generations, and they have the cheek to think they are still aryan. big fuking lol.

as for hindutva, its a beautiful thing. i am banking on it leading to the indian muslims eventually rising up and the balkanisation of india. so i fully support hindutva, Modi and BJP, and may they rule for a long time and help Pakistan achieve their long term goals. Ameen.

:rofl:
Very thought-provoking, tell me more after work lollollolll

oh man my eyes are watering, good thing no one can see me right now lol
 
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bingo. more muslims are ready to sacrifice to change muslims situation in the world order. despite all the challenges or recent centuries (colonialism, lack of tech edge, dictators, poverty, etc) the muslims are still here and growing and our identity is still here. if anything with social media and internet its easier to make our identity stronger and become more united than we have been in centuries.


muslims dont care for neutral venues. we are only interested in our land and what happens here.



The biggest problem Islam has liberal promiscuity/liberal feminism that the West is trying to pump in...(Iran has already fallen to it)..I donot know how Islam plans to win that battle...cuz without strict segregation of the sexes as espoused in Islam, it is very easy for sexually libertine philosophies to take hold in Muslim societies
 
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Parsis and Hindutva's ethnic nationalism

Hindutva is highly influential in India. It is comprised of a section of largely upper caste Hindus and is distinct from the religion of Hinduism (Jaffrelot 1993). The Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) is the political wing of this movement (Hansen 1999, 10) and in the 2014 national elections the BJP was elected and Narendra Modi became the Prime Minister of India. Modi has spent his entire adult life advancing the Hindutva ideology (Teltumbde 2014; Jaffrelot 2008). Prior to his election as Prime Minister he was the Chief Minister of the state of Gujarat, which has been described as the 'Laboratory of Hindutva' (Spodek 2010, 349). Several authors argue that a pogrom or state sanctioned violence against Muslims occurred in 2002 whilst Modi was Chief Minister, although his culpability is disputed (Spodek 2010, 363; Berenschot 2011, 181–182; Patel 2002, 4826; Sarkar 2002, 2874); Ashis Nandy (2002, 106) has described Modi as fitting the clinical diagnosis of a fascist and a Muslim leader described his model of governance as one of marginalisation (Seervai 2014).

I draw upon Christophe Jaffrelot's (2011, 44–45, 85) reading of Hindutva as an ethnic nationalist movement in order to explicate it and the scholarly framework for understanding such movements. Jaffrelot destabilises the popular position that Hindutva is an anti-secular movement. For an example of such a position see Amartya Sen's comments (Guha 2014). Jaffrelot argues that Hindutva constructs' Hindu identity and the Indian nation by drawing upon European theories. The nation is defined by race, religion, language and a sacred land encapsulated in the phrase 'Hindu, Hindi, Hindustan' (Jaffrelot 2011, 45). In this schema Hindus are defined as an ethnic group. Such an approach enables Hindutva actors to sidestep the unanswerable question of what Hinduism is. It decouples the question of Hindu identity from a definition of Hinduism. In Hindutva thought, the Indian nation has been weakened by Muslim and British conquest. For Hindutva, the Indian nation is defined by a threatening Other of Muslims and Christians.

Hostility to Muslims is central to the founder of the movement, Vinayak Damodar Savarkar who invented the term Hindutva. Savarkar began his political career opposing British rule in India for which he was jailed for two consecutive life terms. In prison he came into contact with Muslims involved in the pan-Islamic Khilafat movement that developed from 1919 in the wake of the defeat of the Ottoman Empire. This contact transformed him from a revolutionary into a Hindu nationalist. He became convinced that Muslims, with their pan-Islamic sympathies, were more of a threat to Hindus than the British.

Hindutva took form in the 1920s against and in parallel with the secular nationalism of the Indian National Congress. They each represent a different strand of nationalist thought. Broadly the Congress subscribes to Mahatma Gandhi’s conception of India as a collection of equal religious communities. Secular in this sense does not mean a separation of religion and state, rather the state did not privilege one religion over another. Although it has been argued that there is a form of soft Hindutva within the Congress, it is generally understood that it is not the Hinduness that constitutes India, the nation is not constituted by an ethnic group or one religion, rather the secular nationalism of the Congress seeks to address each community’s distinct traditions and desires. The difference between them can be seen in the origins of Hindutva as a splinter group within the Congress opposed to Gandhi's alliance with the Khilafat movement. Whilst Gandhi used a Hindu idiom to express his political agenda this did not preclude supporting a pan-Islamic movement. The Hindutva group was eventually ejected from the Congress due to its radical communal ideology. Today the foremost Hindutva political party, the BJP and the Congress are political opponents (Jaffrelot 2007, 14, 17). One of the key contemporary differences emerging from ethnic and secular imaginations of the nation can be seen in the language they and their supporters use to describe each other. The Congress are derided as “pseudo-secularists” for their support of special status provisions for minority communities such as personal law relating to divorce. In turn the BJP are derided as “communalist” for advancing the interests of one community over another.

However, both Hindutva and the Congress share a similar conception of India as divided into a majority and minorities. Appadurai (2006) and Pandey (1999) have both pointed out, the conception of ethnic majority and minorities developed by borrowing the language of parliamentary democracy and jurisprudence. It is the ascribing of terms developed in the context of temporary political majorities and minorities to the permanency of ethnicity. It is numerical strength that determines who is a minority and who is a majority legally, politically and nationally. Muslims and Parsis are minorities in India because they are numerically less than Hindus. Conversely, in Pakistan and Bangladesh it is Muslims who are the majority and Hindus the minority. For the Congress the Indian nation is constituted by both majority and minority communities, for Hindutva it is the majority who constitute the nation. It is important to note that majority and minorities are mutually constituted, there can be no question of majority and minority without the existence of the other, If there were no minority communities there can be no majority. (Pandey 1999, 608)

In Hindutva thought the majority Hindu Indian nation and its minorities are delineated by an historical argument. The title page of Savarkar's (1923) seminal book, Hindutva: Who is a Hindu? defines a Hindu as 'a person who regards this land of Bharatvarsha, from the Indus to the Seas as his Father-Land as well as his Holy-Land that is the cradle land of his religion'. Savarkar distinguishes Hindus from non-Hindus by the Indic or non-Indic origins of a community's religion. Hindus embody the Indian nation because their religion originated in India and they are the most numerous (Jaffrelot 2011, 45). Christians and Muslims, as followers of non-Indic religions were assigned subordinate positions in a Hindu nation (Pirbhai 2008, 39). Scholars have understood history as an integral component of the Hindutva ideology; the Hindu nation is defined by it, Muslims and Christians excluded by it (Thapar 2007; Michael Gottlob 2007, 181–3; Nandy 1995, 64–65). An historical definition includes all Hindu castes, Jains, Buddhists, Sikhs, Dalits and Adivasis as Hindus because their religions are of Indian origin. Such a definition excludes Muslims, Christians, Parsis and Jews because their religions are of foreign origin.

Yet Hindutva does not represent a threat to the Parsis. The Parsis are a tiny ethno-religious community of Zoroastrians who claim descent from Iranians who fled religious persecution in the centuries following the Islamic conquest of Iran. They are the world’s foremost adherents of a religion that is at least three thousand years old which once dominated what is now the Middle East and Central Asia. Today they number about 61,000 in India and are disproportionately wealthy. While initially reticent about Modi and the BJP, the Parsis have recently begun to support him. Numerous Parsis expressed their support for Modi to me during fieldwork in India during 2013; also see (Sunavala 2014). The BJP together with the Congress have supported efforts by the community to reverse their demographic decline. Both parties have supported various efforts to preserve and publicise the community's achievements and unique culture (India-Asia News Service 2014; Chakrabarty 2013). The absence of a threat posed by Hindutva towards the Parsis is illustrated by a story a Parsi told to me about his father's experience with the Shiv Sena, an ethnic nationalist movement in the Hindutva fold. For a study of Shiv Sena see (Lele 1995). During the 1992-3 Hindu-Muslim riots in Mumbai his father was driving to the airport to greet a guest and came to a temporary road block run by Shiv Sena members. They pulled his father from the car believing him to be a Muslim because of his beard. They ripped his shirt off and saw that he was wearing the sacred shirt and thread that identify him as a Parsi. The Shiv Sena workers apologised and let him go. I was told that the Shiv Sena is not hostile towards Parsis because when the founder of the movement first came to Bombay he stayed with Parsi friends. This is not to suggest that all Parsis support Hindutva. Many socially conscious Parsis I have interviewed are appalled by the ideology of Hindutva and the actions of Modi, but they do not perceive a threat to themselves.

Savarkar, Modi and other Hindutva actors have consistently expressed a fondness for individual Parsis and the community as a whole (Savarkar, n.d.; Savarkar 1984; Golwalkar 1966; Madhok 1970, 33). In 2011 Modi commissioned the construction of 'World Heritage Centres for Religious Harmony' in the Gujarati villages of Udvada and Sanjan (Dna 2011). These centres celebrate Parsi heritage in Gujarat and India. Modi said at the announcement 'When the world's smallest minority gives a political leader a standing ovation, no greater stamp of approval is required.' (Sunavala 2014) When Modi was Chief Minister of Gujarat he recited a version of the Parsi story at a press conference to announce his successful inducement of a Parsi industrial conglomerate's planned new car factory (The Economic Times 2008). In 2013 the Parsis were celebrated as 'The World's Best Minority' by Modi’s state government in a play performed as part of an annual celebration of the creation of the state known as Gujarat Day.

@waz @AgNoStiC MuSliM @SQ8 @Indus Pakistan @El Sidd @masterchief_mirza @PakistaniAtBahrain @hussain0216 @Kabira @Dalit @fitpOsitive @lastofthepatriots @DESERT FIGHTER @Iltutmish @Maarkhoor @Imran Khan @Cliftonite @pakistan forever @Irfan Baloch @Windjammer @Areesh @Baibars_1260

To be continued ...

Cheers, Doc


Have you come across anything that led you to believe that Parsis loved Muslims, to explain your shock?

There are at most cultural affinities of food. And mingling in the upper crust. Where religion is kept safely aside.

Cheers, Doc

Remind me to comment on this when you get a new lease of life.

I would in the meantime study what is the difference between the 2 ideologies as similarities are too much and one miss the subtle differences.
 
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The biggest problem Islam has liberal promiscuity/liberal feminism that the West is trying to pump in...(Iran has already fallen to it)..I donot know how Islam plans to win that battle...cuz without strict segregation of the sexes as espoused in Islam, it is very easy for sexually libertine philosophies to take hold in Muslim societies

Yup.. you are right.

Islam or muslim societies are the last bastion of civility and morality...Non-muslim world has fallen to debauchery and hedonistic life style of epic proportions and I am afraid this phenomenon is slowly creeping in our societies.

Opposition from our side is still strong though but I don't know how long it will last.

To be honest , if muslim leadership had any brains , they would have contacted conservative people in the west and formed an alliance with them to bring back the world from mindless debauchery.
 
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The biggest problem Islam has liberal promiscuity/liberal feminism that the West is trying to pump in...(Iran has already fallen to it)..I donot know how Islam plans to win that battle...cuz without strict segregation of the sexes as espoused in Islam, it is very easy for sexually libertine philosophies to take hold in Muslim societies

its not been a big issue. these feminists dont have the fire to fight forever, and we have conservatives to counter them unlike the West. Iran is a special case and i dont want to get into analysing that because its sect based. but as the saying goes, "communist until you get rich, feminist until you get married, atheist until the airplane starts falling."
The biggest problem Islam has liberal promiscuity/liberal feminism that the West is trying to pump in...(Iran has already fallen to it)..I donot know how Islam plans to win that battle...cuz without strict segregation of the sexes as espoused in Islam, it is very easy for sexually libertine philosophies to take hold in Muslim societies

also, in muslim countries feminists leave feminism in waves. Islam has that quality, and that way to make someone more religious and leave aside stupid ideas like feminism. Islam has things like a beautiful Quran recitation, Ramadhan, Hajj/Umrah, importance on marriage, family life, etc. i have seen even muslim that are weak at practicing their faith get a big dose of faith when they stand in front of the Kaaba or come to the Prophet's mosque. the first time you see the Kaaba in front of you is a chilling sight to behold. Islam just has that quality that other religions dont have.
 
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its not been a big issue. these feminists dont have the fire to fight forever, and we have conservatives to counter them unlike the West. Iran is a special case and i dont want to get into analysing that because its sect based. but as the saying goes, "communist until you get rich, feminist until you get married, atheist until the airplane starts falling."


also, in muslim countries feminists leave feminism in waves. Islam has that quality, and that way to make someone more religious and leave aside stupid ideas like feminism. Islam has things like a beautiful Quran recitation, Ramadhan, Hajj/Umrah, importance on marriage, family life, etc. i have seen even muslim that are weak at practicing their faith get a big dose of faith when they stand in front of the Kaaba or come to the Prophet's mosque. the first time you see the Kaaba in front of you is a chilling sight to behold. Islam just has that quality that other religions dont have.


As I said Islam is the only organized religion of any relevance and importance on the face of the Earth today..It still has a strong,vibrant,coservative core...the other religions bent over backwards to accomodate liberal feminism, promiscuity, pre-marital/extra martial sex and have lost all vitality...but the problem of liberal feminism/promiscuity has swept through Islamic countries such as Turkey as well ....and gender segregation is being removed in many Islamic societies..the strength of Sharia is being gutted..in KSA, women are joining the armed forces...you know what happens if men and women share barracks (which is eventually bound to happen)...I think only Islam has the strength to repel these forces of sexual immorality, but till now the global Muslim community has just accomodated to West's relentless pressure of societal change
 
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The biggest problem Islam has liberal promiscuity/liberal feminism that the West is trying to pump in...(Iran has already fallen to it)..I donot know how Islam plans to win that battle...cuz without strict segregation of the sexes as espoused in Islam, it is very easy for sexually libertine philosophies to take hold in Muslim societies
have you ever experienced a gender segregated society? e.g in muslims and sikhs of india?
Yup.. you are right.

Islam or muslim societies are the last bastion of civility and morality...Non-muslim world has fallen to debauchery and hedonistic life style of epic proportions and I am afraid this phenomenon is slowly creeping in our societies.

Opposition from our side is still strong though but I don't know how long it will last.

To be honest , if muslim leadership had any brains , they would have contacted conservative people in the west and formed an alliance with them to bring back the world from mindless debauchery.
are you sure you are in Pakistan?
 
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As I said Islam is the only organized religion of any relevance and importance on the face of the Earth today..It still has a strong,vibrant,coservative core...the other religions bent over backwards to accomodate liberal feminism, promiscuity, pre-marital/extra martial sex and have lost all vitality...but the problem of liberal feminism/promiscuity has swept through Islamic countries such as Turkey as well ....and gender segregation is being removed in many Islamic societies..the strength of Sharia is being gutted..in KSA, women are joining the armed forces...you know what happens if men and women share barracks (which is eventually bound to happen)...I think only Islam has the strength to repel these forces of sexual immorality, but till now the global Muslim community has just accomodated to West's relentless pressure of societal change

Saudi will never become a liberal country. Turkey is different because of the Treaty of Lausanne that made the place of Islam quite precarious in secular Turkey. but the treaty is ending in 2023 and a new constitution is coming to Turkey. so things are changing there. Turkey elected a man like Erdogan, who isnt perfect, but he is definitely not what the West want. muslims have to get better at practicing their religion and keep electing leaders that push Islam into politics and show how its a solution for our problems, like Erdogan, Imran Khan and Mahatir are doing.

also forgive my ignorance, but are you muslim?
 
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Saudi will never become a liberal country. Turkey is different because of the Treaty of Lausanne that made the place of Islam quite precarious in secular Turkey. but the treaty is ending in 2023 and a new constitution is coming to Turkey. so things are changing there. Turkey elected a man like Erdogan, who isnt perfect, but he is definitely not what the West want. muslims have to get better at practicing their religion and keep electing leaders that push Islam into politics and show how its a solution for our problems, like Erdogan, Imran Khan and Mahatir are doing.

also forgive my ignorance, but are you muslim?


No I am not Muslim...I am more in the tradition of @Indus Pakistan ...Atheist,red pilled and culturally Hindu (he being culturally Muslim)...But I take a lot of interest in Islamic history, especially the first 100 years and its brilliant military commanders in that time period
 
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