Paris Air Show 2019 - Thunders in Europe

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Full gear extension and a high angle of attack take off are two opposite things----for one you need maximum smooth uninterrupted power---you are showing off how fast and straight up you can go---the other acts as air brakes----.

Another problem over here is as the plane is slowing down very fast due to extended wheels and climb---it is getting closer to a stall speed and the plane is flying at an angle and in a turn--- the air flow into the engine thru the inlet is not very smooth---that is also a very critical time for the engine to keep performing at its best----the pilot wants to push all out to full throttle to gain power and the compressor MAY stall due to air starvation----you have catastrophe written all over it!!!

@gambit I hope I am not assuming too much here.

Bottom line----high angle of attack take off and wheels down don't mix----. That display serves no purpose----. In the high AOA take off you want to show the agility of the aircraft that how quick it can gain altitude----can some one explain with is the technical reason of wheels down at that time.

 

[Green Angel]

Waiting for Latest video of Thunder...........

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Hi,

Full gear extension and a high angle of attack take off are two opposite things----for one you need maximum smooth uninterrupted power---you are showing off how fast and straight up you can go---the other acts as air brakes----.

Another problem over here is as the plane is slowing down very fast due to extended wheels and climb---it is getting closer to a stall speed and the plane is flying at an angle and in a turn--- the air flow into the engine thru the inlet is not very smooth---that is also a very critical time for the engine to keep performing at its best----the pilot wants to push all out to full throttle to gain power and the compressor MAY stall due to air starvation----you have catastrophe written all over it!!!

@gambit I hope I am not assuming too much here.

Bottom line----high angle of attack take off and wheels down don't mix----. That display serves no purpose----. In the high AOA take off you want to show the agility of the aircraft that how quick it can gain altitude----can some one explain with is the technical reason of wheels down at that time.

its a big deal this one. hopefully an official/ expert view will be shared with Public from PAF side.
I mean they must have rehearsed every single bit of this flight display many times.
at one point as the aeroplane went airboune it appeared it was going to stall.

 

[LonE_WolF]

Waiting for Latest video of Thunder...........

same here

 

[MastanKhan]

its a big deal this one. hopefully an official/ expert view will be shared with Public from PAF side.
I mean they must have rehearsed every single bit of this flight display many times.
at one point as the aeroplane went airboune it appeared it was going to stall.

Irfan,

I understand the rehearsal---but my question is what is the purpose of a wheels down straight climb up-----you bleed speed too fast---you go into a turn---you want to speed up---all the air that is being sucked in is being disrupted due to the turn---might cause problem with fuel delivery as well----that means you are asking for a compressor bunt!

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Irfan,

I understand the rehearsal---but my question is what is the purpose of a wheels down straight climb up-----you bleed speed too fast---you go into a turn---you want to speed up---all the air that is being sucked in is being disrupted due to the turn---might cause problem with fuel delivery as well----that means you are asking for a compressor bunt!

lets wait for the latest video, if it was a lapse or a part of the scripted routine.
I hope its the former but that shows bad discipline. I dont need more than basic understanding of aerodynamics and flight to understand what you are pointing at in case it was a show off that plane can do what it did "dispute the gear out~" then like you said , it was pointless.

btw , while we are at it, compare it with flight testing of JSF and raptor with weapons bay and gear down in flight. they are testing something are'nt they? AGAIN I will correct myself based on what you said (you want to show off how fast and noble you are and how quickly you gain altitude, you cant do it with gear down you BoZo) someone needs their ears pulled for sure

 

[Jazzbot]

Video, video, video.....

 

[razgriz19]

Irfan,

I understand the rehearsal---but my question is what is the purpose of a wheels down straight climb up-----you bleed speed too fast---you go into a turn---you want to speed up---all the air that is being sucked in is being disrupted due to the turn---might cause problem with fuel delivery as well----that means you are asking for a compressor bunt!

Fuel control unit make sures how much fuel to put in for a given amount of air. The fuel, before going into the combustion chamber, actually controls the air by moving stators and guide vanes. It has to make sure enough cooling air is there to do a burn in the combustion chamber. Turns, climbs, everything is taken into account Sir jee.
And compressor stall has more to do with the design of the engine, rather than the design of the aircraft.

 

[Basel]

BTW when will you guys clear J11 for export? We need that aircraft.

True, Pakistan need J-11D or higher series jets to take care of IN specially as far as Yemen, although it will be very good for other missions too.

 

[MastanKhan]

Fuel control unit make sures how much fuel to put in for a given amount of air. The fuel, before going into the combustion chamber, actually controls the air by moving stators and guide vanes. It has to make sure enough cooling air is there to do a burn in the combustion chamber. Turns, climbs, everything is taken into account Sir jee.
And compressor stall has more to do with the design of the engine, rather than the design of the aircraft.

Hi,

Don't patronize me----I am not a Sir jee-----. The problem may occur when from a high G the aircraft comes down to 0 G or a negative G----that can disrupt the fuel flow---the air flow---can cause a compressor bunt.

 

[Bratva]

Hi,

Full gear extension and a high angle of attack take off are two opposite things----for one you need maximum smooth uninterrupted power---you are showing off how fast and straight up you can go---the other acts as air brakes----.

Another problem over here is as the plane is slowing down very fast due to extended wheels and climb---it is getting closer to a stall speed and the plane is flying at an angle and in a turn--- the air flow into the engine thru the inlet is not very smooth---that is also a very critical time for the engine to keep performing at its best----the pilot wants to push all out to full throttle to gain power and the compressor MAY stall due to air starvation----you have catastrophe written all over it!!!

@gambit I hope I am not assuming too much here.

Bottom line----high angle of attack take off and wheels down don't mix----. That display serves no purpose----. In the high AOA take off you want to show the agility of the aircraft that how quick it can gain altitude----can some one explain with is the technical reason of wheels down at that time.

Reports are coming in JF-17 had a lame performance today. Chance is yesterday mishap might played it's part to tone down the maneuvers

 

[Donatello]

Reports are coming in JF-17 had a lame performance today. Chance is yesterday mishap might played it's part to tone down the maneuvers

What reports and what mishap?

 

[Bratva]

What reports and what mishap?

Just wait a little for videos of today performance. Mishap is plane was about to go into stall during takeoff manuever

 

[gambit]

Could it be possible that the delay in retracting the landing gears were done to show that even if the landing gears are down still the aircraft is capable of climbing at a good rate?

Then the better demo would be with external stores. Am not saying that it could not be planned that way. When a jet is showing off its capabilities, the base config (clean) is generally used. The demo have to -- in a manner of speaking -- make sense, especially to experienced pilots.

Demonstration flights are not the same. Pilots of demonstration teams like the Thunderbirds, Blue Angels, Snowbirds, Red Arrows, etc., are not there to demonstrate equipment but of pilot flying skills. Formation flying is mandatory for all pilots, especially of military pilots. But national flying demonstration teams takes formation flying to even more precision in terms of timing of maneuvers, execution of maneuvers, and proximity of maneuvers to each other. That is why candidates to these teams are intensively tested, on ground and in air, as to their basic flying skills.

Equipment demonstration flights are nothing like that.

Can I wiggle the F-16's tail on approach ? Of course I can, but how does that demonstrate -- to experienced pilots in/out of the military -- that this capability is vital to the F-16 as a combat aircraft ? It does not. On the other hand, can I put the jet into a high yaw attitude to demonstrate the jet's ability to compensate for cross wind in approach ? Yes, and this demonstration would be useful for all pilots. All pilots inevitably experience that 'pucker' moment with cross wind approach so to see how much can a jet have its nose point to one side while still flying straight ahead is revealing of its flexibility.

When would a combat aircraft fly straight up with its gear extended ? Every pilot would say -- practically never. Would a pilot do it ? Yes, any pilot could if the jet's engine is powerful enough, but unless the situation requires it, every pilot instinctively know that such a configuration is contradictory to known safe flight condition, especially in the era where computers have so much say in how a pilot fly.

Civilian aircrafts rarely fly with external stores, let alone expendable external stores. So would a demo of an F-16 with asymmetrical external stores be helpful, maneuvers with gears extended/retracted ? Absolutely. That is why we see jet fighters in low speed, high AOA, all flaps in full, and with gears downs, then do all kinds of turns.

So while you can plan for any maneuvers you want, those maneuvers have to make flying sense as to the probability, not possibility, if a pilot can find himself in that situation.

 

[Sage]

dont worry..


غم نہ کر کاکا

یہ دھواں اڑتا ہے ھمسایوں کو جلانے کے لیے

@OrionHunter