Paris Air Show 2019 - Thunders in Europe

[Donatello]

Just wait a little for videos of today performance. Mishap is plane was about to go into stall during takeoff manuever

Hmm, sorry i haven't not watched the today's video yet......is there any link?

In any case, for a FBW aircraft the flight control limits and laws are built in...meaning when the computer senses something is about to go wrong it will warn and possibly kick in. The whole idea with FBW in combat aircraft is that the pilot may not abuse the aircraft and force himself into stupid situations.

@Oscar
Are there any such limitations built in the JFT FBW system?

 

[MastanKhan]

Hmm, sorry i haven't not watched the today's video yet......is there any link?

In any case, for a FBW aircraft the flight control limits and laws are built in...meaning when the computer senses something is about to go wrong it will warn and possibly kick in. The whole idea with FBW in combat aircraft is that the pilot may not abuse the aircraft and force himself into stupid situations.

@Oscar
Are there any such limitations built in the JFT FBW system?

Hi,

You coming to the party a little too late-------. Read my post #84 and go from there----. You will find out what the problem is

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Then the better demo would be with external stores. Am not saying that it could not be planned that way. When a jet is showing off its capabilities, the base config (clean) is generally used. The demo have to -- in a manner of speaking -- make sense, especially to experienced pilots.

Demonstration flights are not the same. Pilots of demonstration teams like the Thunderbirds, Blue Angels, Snowbirds, Red Arrows, etc., are not there to demonstrate equipment but of pilot flying skills. Formation flying is mandatory for all pilots, especially of military pilots. But national flying demonstration teams takes formation flying to even more precision in terms of timing of maneuvers, execution of maneuvers, and proximity of maneuvers to each other. That is why candidates to these teams are intensively tested, on ground and in air, as to their basic flying skills.

Equipment demonstration flights are nothing like that.

Can I wiggle the F-16's tail on approach ? Of course I can, but how does that demonstrate -- to experienced pilots in/out of the military -- that this capability is vital to the F-16 as a combat aircraft ? It does not. On the other hand, can I put the jet into a high yaw attitude to demonstrate the jet's ability to compensate for cross wind in approach ? Yes, and this demonstration would be useful for all pilots. All pilots inevitably experience that 'pucker' moment with cross wind approach so to see how much can a jet have its nose point to one side while still flying straight ahead is revealing of its flexibility.

When would a combat aircraft fly straight up with its gear extended ? Every pilot would say -- practically never. Would a pilot do it ? Yes, any pilot could if the jet's engine is powerful enough, but unless the situation requires it, every pilot instinctively know that such a configuration is contradictory to known safe flight condition, especially in the era where computers have so much say in how a pilot fly.

Civilian aircrafts rarely fly with external stores, let alone expendable external stores. So would a demo of an F-16 with asymmetrical external stores be helpful, maneuvers with gears extended/retracted ? Absolutely. That is why we see jet fighters in low speed, high AOA, all flaps in full, and with gears downs, then do all kinds of turns.

So while you can plan for any maneuvers you want, those maneuvers have to make flying sense as to the probability, not possibility, if a pilot can find himself in that situation.

All evidence is showing ill planning and pilot error.

It is clear that as soon as positive climb in attained gear up is the next thing a pilot is trained to do which was not done in this case hence we also see a higher angle of attack which was corrected immediately so that the aircraft doesn't go into a stall (may be some stall protection kicking in).

Xwind landings are really a very important part I agree.

 

[Sage]

All evidence is showing ill planning and pilot error.

It is clear that as soon as positive climb in attained gear up is the next thing a pilot is trained to do which was not done in this case hence we also see a higher angle of attack which was corrected immediately so that the aircraft doesn't go into a stall (may be some stall protection kicking in).

Xwind landings are really a very important part I agree.

His gear was not up even in the practice demo ....why ?

 

[Sinnerman108]

Then the better demo would be with external stores. Am not saying that it could not be planned that way. When a jet is showing off its capabilities, the base config (clean) is generally used. The demo have to -- in a manner of speaking -- make sense, especially to experienced pilots.

Demonstration flights are not the same. Pilots of demonstration teams like the Thunderbirds, Blue Angels, Snowbirds, Red Arrows, etc., are not there to demonstrate equipment but of pilot flying skills. Formation flying is mandatory for all pilots, especially of military pilots. But national flying demonstration teams takes formation flying to even more precision in terms of timing of maneuvers, execution of maneuvers, and proximity of maneuvers to each other. That is why candidates to these teams are intensively tested, on ground and in air, as to their basic flying skills.

Equipment demonstration flights are nothing like that.

Can I wiggle the F-16's tail on approach ? Of course I can, but how does that demonstrate -- to experienced pilots in/out of the military -- that this capability is vital to the F-16 as a combat aircraft ? It does not. On the other hand, can I put the jet into a high yaw attitude to demonstrate the jet's ability to compensate for cross wind in approach ? Yes, and this demonstration would be useful for all pilots. All pilots inevitably experience that 'pucker' moment with cross wind approach so to see how much can a jet have its nose point to one side while still flying straight ahead is revealing of its flexibility.

When would a combat aircraft fly straight up with its gear extended ? Every pilot would say -- practically never. Would a pilot do it ? Yes, any pilot could if the jet's engine is powerful enough, but unless the situation requires it, every pilot instinctively know that such a configuration is contradictory to known safe flight condition, especially in the era where computers have so much say in how a pilot fly.

Civilian aircrafts rarely fly with external stores, let alone expendable external stores. So would a demo of an F-16 with asymmetrical external stores be helpful, maneuvers with gears extended/retracted ? Absolutely. That is why we see jet fighters in low speed, high AOA, all flaps in full, and with gears downs, then do all kinds of turns.

So while you can plan for any maneuvers you want, those maneuvers have to make flying sense as to the probability, not possibility, if a pilot can find himself in that situation.

If I may.
Ask a question of my own.
at .57 , .58, .59
The plane coughs up some white smoke, which doesn't come out of the exhaust.
What is that for ?
Aux ?

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

If I may.
Ask a question of my own.
at .57 , .58, .59
The plane coughs up some white smoke, which doesn't come out of the exhaust.
What is that for ?
Aux ?

May be the White Smoke was access engine oil or grease that burnt when the engine heated up before takeoff.

His gear was not up even in the practice demo ....why ?

That is exactly what we are talking about.

"Why"? Can be only answered by the PAF personnel who are involved in this demo.

 

[Donatello]

Hi,

You coming to the party a little too late-------. Read my post #84 and go from there----. You will find out what the problem is---and @Oscar don't know diddey sh-it----don't put him on a pedestal---.

hi,

I read all those posts, what i meant to say was that generally all such scenarios are built into the computer....flaps....altitude...speed...AoA...slats...rudder position....gear up or down......so the computer will tell the pilot that your gear is down, too much drag...too less altitude and speed and too high Angle of Attack.
When you load a missile on board an aircraft, the weight of that missile is communicated to the computer automatically...the pilot does not have to enter those values manually....that way when a missile is launched or a 2000lb bomb is dropped, the computer anticipates the launch and the resultant instability of the airframe and then compensates automatically. That is what a true FBW is. That is what i want to know if JF-17 has that software and logic built in.

 

[MastanKhan]

hi,

I read all those posts, what i meant to say was that generally all such scenarios are built into the computer....flaps....altitude...speed...AoA...slats...rudder position....gear up or down......so the computer will tell the pilot that your gear is down, too much drag...too less altitude and speed and too high Angle of Attack.
When you load a missile on board an aircraft, the weight of that missile is communicated to the computer automatically...the pilot does not have to enter those values manually....that way when a missile is launched or a 2000lb bomb is dropped, the computer anticipates the launch and the resultant instability of the airframe and then compensates automatically. That is what a true FBW is. That is what i want to know if JF-17 has that software and logic built in.

Hi,

You are getting into 'confusing' grounds-----keep it simple stupid. In other words---you are trying to find excuses with the machine---where there are none---.

Plane takes off---it is at 20-25 feet + and climbing---pilot activates wheels up switch----. The pilot either forgot---or there is a BAD training precedence----which means they have been doing this maneuver in the past----but not as late wheels up as this time----..

 

[Windjammer]

Pakistan’s very own Top Gun sets pulses racing on social media
Updated 4 hours ago

LE BOURGET: A Pakistani pilot got pulses racing on social media on Monday after photos from the Paris Air Show reminded some of Top Gun star Tom Cruise.

Squadron Leader Yaser Mudasser became an unwitting Twitter star after shots circulated of him showing off Pakistan´s new JF-17 Thunder fighter jet to a diplomat.

But Mudasser was somewhat less cocky than Maverick, the cult hero played by Cruise in the 1980s hit film, when asked about the surprise attention.

"It´s funny. One never imagines that you´ll get this kind of attention when you´re training day-in day-out," the pilot told AFP, laughing bashfully.

Mudasser has clocked up over 600 flights in the JF-17, Pakistan´s first-ever home-made jet, which was designed and built with Chinese help.

"It´s superb. It´s a treat to fly this aircraft. It´s so beautiful and user-friendly," he gushed.

But it was his colleague, Wing Commander Usman Ali, also channeling his inner Maverick in a pair of aviator shades, who wowed the crowds on the first day of the world´s premier air show.

"It was an honour to fly the JF-17 over the skies of Paris. It was a moment of pride for all of us to exhibit this aircraft to the whole world," said Ali.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Pakistan’s very own Top Gun sets pulses racing on social media
Updated 4 hours ago

LE BOURGET: A Pakistani pilot got pulses racing on social media on Monday after photos from the Paris Air Show reminded some of Top Gun star Tom Cruise.

Squadron Leader Yaser Mudasser became an unwitting Twitter star after shots circulated of him showing off Pakistan´s new JF-17 Thunder fighter jet to a diplomat.

But Mudasser was somewhat less cocky than Maverick, the cult hero played by Cruise in the 1980s hit film, when asked about the surprise attention.

"It´s funny. One never imagines that you´ll get this kind of attention when you´re training day-in day-out," the pilot told AFP, laughing bashfully.

Mudasser has clocked up over 600 flights in the JF-17, Pakistan´s first-ever home-made jet, which was designed and built with Chinese help.

"It´s superb. It´s a treat to fly this aircraft. It´s so beautiful and user-friendly," he gushed.

But it was his colleague, Wing Commander Usman Ali, also channeling his inner Maverick in a pair of aviator shades, who wowed the crowds on the first day of the world´s premier air show.

"It was an honour to fly the JF-17 over the skies of Paris. It was a moment of pride for all of us to exhibit this aircraft to the whole world," said Ali.

sohnio source b to share karo.

 

[aftab_s81]

Hi,
Please give me link of the actual flight show, APART from the warm up video mentioned before.

 

[Windjammer]

JF-17 Thunder exhibits dazzling performance in Paris International Airshow
in Latest news, World


Lahore: Amidst huge crowds during the official opening ceremony of 51st Paris International Airshow, JF-17 Thunder exhibited its dazzling debut aerial performance at Le Bourget Paris, today.

The breath taking aerial display by the Thunder, co-developed by China and Pakistan, included some extraordinary maneuvers like the muscle climb, thunder turns, slow speed performance and inverted flight.

The Thundery performance by the PAF’s display pilot, Wing Commander Usman left the spectators spell bound. After the display, aircraft landed back amidst huge round of applause by the thrilled and enchanted crowds. Besides aerial display, one JF-17 has been put on static display showing off its range of weapons. Large number of spectators including the potential buyers and enthusiasts are taking keen interest in JF-17 Thunder aircraft.

A joint press conference by PAF and AVIC (China Aviation Industry Corporation) was also held after the opening ceremony. While speaking at the occasion, Mr. Li Yuhai, Vice President AVIC told the media, “After successful participation of JF-17 aircraft in Farnborough Air Show, Dubai Air Show and Zhuhai Air Show in China,
03 JF-17 Aircraft have arrived to the Paris Air Show. This is another major action jointly taken by AVIC and Pakistan Air Force to further cultivate the international market for JF-17 aircraft. Currently, there are already positive market prospects for JF-17 aircraft in the international defense trade market.”

Later Mr. Yang Ying, President CATIC while interacting with media said, “As a third-generation fighter featured with outstanding flight performance, strong operational capability, well-supported logistic system, and high performance-to-cost ratio, JF-17 enjoys a broad market prospect. As JF-17 aircraft can be used as a substitute of second-generation fighter, all the countries still taking second-generation fighter as the backbone of its air force are actually the potential customers of JF-17 aircraft. Current market reaction also proves our expectation: on one hand, there are already several customers showing great interest and procurement intent toward JF-17 aircraft ; on the other, with the effort of Sino-Pak joint sales and marketing team, some customers are carrying out in-depth interaction with us.”

Towards the end of press conference, Air Vice Marshal Arshad Malik, Chief Project Director, JF-17 Project, PAF addressed the media and said, “ With its light-weight, all-weather, multi-role characteristics, the JF-17 enjoys comparative agility and maneuverability in all regimes vis-a-vis the fighters of same category. The strength of JF-17 lies in its advanced aerodynamics and modern avionics. Aircraft maneuverability would be visible during the aerial display today.

As part of its advanced systems, the computer controlled fault diagnosis and analysis system not only reduces maintenance cost, but also introduces the concept of maintenance on “need only” basis. No wonder our airmen take no time in feeling at home while operating JF-17 aircraft. Having provided salient features of JF-17 Program, allow me to highlight an important aspect of this program; “What does JF-17 offer?” In my reckoning – it provides cutting edge capabilities at an affordable cost. I am specially highlighting this aspect, as JF-17 was designed, developed and built with a careful balance of advanced technologies as an affordable and cost effective fighter”.

In the end he further added, “ I believe that the program has a great future and the potential it offers in its own class is unmatched. Of course none of this would have been possible without the excellent teamwork between the PAF and Chinese teams. I take this opportunity to thank our Chinese partners in AVIC and CATIC for their unflinching support. I am sure the future holds a lot of promise for our joint venture”.
@Oscar @MastanKhan @Horus @Irfan Baloch
@Bratva..... I believe you were of the opinion that it was a lame performance.... far from it, wait until you see the video.

 

[Skyliner]

JF-17 Thunder exhibits dazzling performance in Paris International Airshow
in Latest news, World


Lahore: Amidst huge crowds during the official opening ceremony of 51st Paris International Airshow, JF-17 Thunder exhibited its dazzling debut aerial performance at Le Bourget Paris, today.

The breath taking aerial display by the Thunder, co-developed by China and Pakistan, included some extraordinary maneuvers like the muscle climb, thunder turns, slow speed performance and inverted flight.

The Thundery performance by the PAF’s display pilot, Wing Commander Usman left the spectators spell bound. After the display, aircraft landed back amidst huge round of applause by the thrilled and enchanted crowds. Besides aerial display, one JF-17 has been put on static display showing off its range of weapons. Large number of spectators including the potential buyers and enthusiasts are taking keen interest in JF-17 Thunder aircraft.

A joint press conference by PAF and AVIC (China Aviation Industry Corporation) was also held after the opening ceremony. While speaking at the occasion, Mr. Li Yuhai, Vice President AVIC told the media, “After successful participation of JF-17 aircraft in Farnborough Air Show, Dubai Air Show and Zhuhai Air Show in China,
03 JF-17 Aircraft have arrived to the Paris Air Show. This is another major action jointly taken by AVIC and Pakistan Air Force to further cultivate the international market for JF-17 aircraft. Currently, there are already positive market prospects for JF-17 aircraft in the international defense trade market.”

Later Mr. Yang Ying, President CATIC while interacting with media said, “As a third-generation fighter featured with outstanding flight performance, strong operational capability, well-supported logistic system, and high performance-to-cost ratio, JF-17 enjoys a broad market prospect. As JF-17 aircraft can be used as a substitute of second-generation fighter, all the countries still taking second-generation fighter as the backbone of its air force are actually the potential customers of JF-17 aircraft. Current market reaction also proves our expectation: on one hand, there are already several customers showing great interest and procurement intent toward JF-17 aircraft ; on the other, with the effort of Sino-Pak joint sales and marketing team, some customers are carrying out in-depth interaction with us.”

Towards the end of press conference, Air Vice Marshal Arshad Malik, Chief Project Director, JF-17 Project, PAF addressed the media and said, “ With its light-weight, all-weather, multi-role characteristics, the JF-17 enjoys comparative agility and maneuverability in all regimes vis-a-vis the fighters of same category. The strength of JF-17 lies in its advanced aerodynamics and modern avionics. Aircraft maneuverability would be visible during the aerial display today.

As part of its advanced systems, the computer controlled fault diagnosis and analysis system not only reduces maintenance cost, but also introduces the concept of maintenance on “need only” basis. No wonder our airmen take no time in feeling at home while operating JF-17 aircraft. Having provided salient features of JF-17 Program, allow me to highlight an important aspect of this program; “What does JF-17 offer?” In my reckoning – it provides cutting edge capabilities at an affordable cost. I am specially highlighting this aspect, as JF-17 was designed, developed and built with a careful balance of advanced technologies as an affordable and cost effective fighter”.

In the end he further added, “ I believe that the program has a great future and the potential it offers in its own class is unmatched. Of course none of this would have been possible without the excellent teamwork between the PAF and Chinese teams. I take this opportunity to thank our Chinese partners in AVIC and CATIC for their unflinching support. I am sure the future holds a lot of promise for our joint venture”.
@Oscar @MastanKhan @Horus @Irfan Baloch
@Bratva..... I believe you were of the opinion that it was a lame performance.... far from it, wait until you see the video.

Any link to the video?

 

[Paksanity]

@Windjammer is teasing us now. Not good, not good!

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

I believe you were of the opinion that it was a lame performance.... far from it, wait until you see the video.

Post the video... Best way to the critics...