Pakistan's exports declined by 24% in july 2022.

[Mav3rick]

Yes...sell a 20 PKR share for 9 PKR, and then buy it back two years later for 30 PKR...sound strategy!

BTW, IK was doing populist measures and appeasing the masses...so why has the government taken back the fixed retail tax amounting to 70 billion? Couldn't stand to the pressure? Is say behtar POS based taxation hi nhn thi?

I have been more critical of Miftah than anyone here, why you and many others consider me a PML supporter is just beyond my understanding or any reasoning.

My take on taxation is that we have to force people to pay taxes because they are not used to paying taxes. Even the poorest earning member must pay taxes, however, we can return more to them than the amount of tax they are forced to pay, in some other way so that we develop a culture and establish a habit of paying taxes amongst all. When we give waivers or favors, we do a disservice to the entire nation and it's like a slap to tax paying citizens like myself.

 

[Ssan]

Well, we will find out within a few weeks to a few months how the remittances turn out, even though remittances were up in June.

As for the last part of your post, firstly I can only speak for myself and secondly, should I not have been speaking about the deteriorating condition of the economy by Imran Khan while he was in power, first because of his appointing a nonsense person as a Finance Minister and delaying going to IMF and later-on for not honoring his own words and committing suicide after going to IMF?? And that was just the beginning, it continued to go downhill from there. But it did not start going down from there, it started when the establishment removed Dar and the useless Miftah was posted; that was the actual beginning of the downfall.......and yet we again have the same dumb Finance Minister.

Looks like we live on different planets. The economy was stabilizing under IK. Ask Fitch or Moodys or really anybody with some competence.

And you have problems with posting of official stats too? Should I just be making up stats like PTI does like the 22 Billion they left in reserves?

I’m very happy you posted official stats. It is the official stats that support my narrative, not yours.

That's what Miftah said in the media presser yesterday at Karachi chamber of commerce. He also said that there was a buy-back clause (but I say why buy it back, UAE will ensure that the SOE continues to grow), we should have even more investment in PSE by foreign friends.

I strongly disagree with you. I think Miftah is a thousand times the finance minister that Dar was. I would rather have Miftah- over Dar any day. Ofc, any non-PDM finance minister will be better than a PDM one by default. Because no body trusts PDM band of thugs.

 

[Jango]

I have been more critical of Miftah than anyone here, why you and many others consider me a PML supporter is just beyond my understanding or any reasoning.

Not even N themselves trusts Dar, yet you do...go figure!

My take on taxation is that we have to force people to pay taxes because they are not used to paying taxes. Even the poorest earning member must pay taxes, however, we can return more to them than the amount of tax they are forced to pay, in some other way so that we develop a culture and establish a habit of paying taxes amongst all. When we give waivers or favors, we do a disservice to the entire nation and it's like a slap to tax paying citizens like myself.

I do not disagree with that, hence my original question, why was this tax withdrawn? N saw it is already losing popularity, and it couldn't afford to further make it's voter base from the traders angry? Jo 2 saal ki mehnat thi FBR ki regarding the POS system, all down the drain.

 

[Ssan]

Not even N themselves trusts Dar, yet you do...go figure!



I do not disagree with that, hence my original question, why was this tax withdrawn? N saw it is already losing popularity, and it couldn't afford to further make it's voter base from the traders angry? Jo 2 saal ki mehnat thi FBR ki regarding the POS system, all down the drain.

The truth is that to some extent, Miftah has made necessary yet unpopular decisions. Our political economy which is dominated by the likes of @Mav3rick will not appreciate this. Nonetheless, you have to give credit where it’s due. Raising petrol prices, which was necessary, really slashed PMLN popularity.

Of course, this is nothing compared to the mess that was left to PTI in 2018. And PTI made much deeper and painful reforms. The difference is that by making the difficult yet necessary decisions, PMLN politics of the last three years, the politics of inflation, stand completely exposed.

Ideally, when PTI was making these decisions based on necessity, they wouldn’t have lost popularity either over the last three years. But our political economy is our country’s biggest Achilles heal.

 

[Jango]

The truth is that to some extent, Miftah has made necessary yet unpopular decisions. Our political economy which is dominated by duffers like @maverick1977 will not appreciate this. Nonetheless, you have to give credit where it’s due. Raising petrol prices, which was necessary, really slashed PMLN popularity.

Of course, this is nothing compared to the mess that was left to PTI in 2018. And PTI made much deeper and painful reforms. The difference is that by making the difficult yet necessary decisions, PMLN politics of the last three years, the politics of inflation, stand completely exposed.

Ideally, when PTI was making these decisions based on necessity, they wouldn’t have lost popularity either over the last three years. But our political economy is our country’s biggest Achilles heal.

I do agree that Miftah did make some good decisions, but then again, he cannot go against the political ambitions of the party. Politics reigns supreme for PML, and that is coming in the way of actual economic reform. The retail taxation mess is just a single example of that. It even got alot of pushback from within FBR, but oh well.

Also, let's refrain from personal attacks.

 

[Mav3rick]

Looks like we live on different planets. The economy was stabilizing under IK. Ask Fitch or Moodys or really anybody with some competence.

I’m very happy you posted official stats. It is the official stats that support my narrative, not yours.

I strongly disagree with you. I think Miftah is a thousand times the finance minister that Dar was. I would rather have Miftah- over Dar any day. Ofc, any non-PDM finance minister will be better than a PDM one by default. Because no body trusts PDM band of thugs.

Perhaps you should consider Moody's ratings, Fitch's ratings, IMF's and World Bank's take on Pakistan's financial situation under Dar and then compare it to any of PTI's Finance Ministers or PTI's years or even that of Miftah.....the ratings under Dar were all in the + sphere as per all independent ratings.

Economy could have been stabilizing but what does it mean exactly when it is a relative term? You damage the economy for years and finally when it does stop being destroyed and stays flatline stable at the lowest level, it is considered stabilizing. Is that an achievement? Achievement would be a stronger & stable rupee, a higher gdp, growing exports and slowing imports, growing reserves, lower cost of living and rising middle class, lowering of circular debt, lowering of foreign debt, localization of big ticket import items etc.

I also wonder how rising remittance in June supports your narrative that overseas Pakistanis are not sending money to Pakistan.

Not even N themselves trusts Dar, yet you do...go figure!

How can you say that? Dar is closer to NS and hence he is not being allowed to return to the country otherwise he was the first choice as a Finance Minister. Even PPP appointed him their Finance Minister because of his abilities; it was only after falling out between PPP and PML that Dar resigned.

I do not disagree with that, hence my original question, why was this tax withdrawn? N saw it is already losing popularity, and it couldn't afford to further make it's voter base from the traders angry? Jo 2 saal ki mehnat thi FBR ki regarding the POS system, all down the drain.

Tax was withdrawn for populist measure and for appeasement. It was a surrender which we cannot afford.

 

[Ssan]

Perhaps you should consider Moody's ratings, Fitch's ratings, IMF's and World Bank's take on Pakistan's financial situation under Dar and then compare it to any of PTI's Finance Ministers or PTI's years or even that of Miftah.....the ratings under Dar were all in the + sphere as per all independent ratings.

Economy could have been stabilizing but what does it mean exactly when it is a relative term? You damage the economy for years and finally when it does stop being destroyed and stays flatline stable at the lowest level, it is considered stabilizing. Is that an achievement? Achievement would be a stronger & stable rupee, a higher gdp, growing exports and slowing imports, growing reserves, lower cost of living and rising middle class, lowering of circular debt, lowering of foreign debt, localization of big ticket import items etc.

I also wonder how rising remittance in June supports your narrative that overseas Pakistanis are not sending money to Pakistan.


How can you say that? Dar is closer to NS and hence he is not being allowed to return to the country otherwise he was the first choice as a Finance Minister. Even PPP appointed him their Finance Minister because of his abilities; it was only after falling out between PPP and PML that Dar resigned.

Tax was withdrawn for populist measure and for appeasement. It was a surrender which we cannot afford.

Dude I really don’t understand why you are shitposting here. It’s not that you don’t know a lot, it seems that most of what you know is wrong.

Look at the timeline of the ratings. PMLN left a negative rating that PTI stabilized.

I do agree that Miftah did make some good decisions, but then again, he cannot go against the political ambitions of the party. Politics reigns supreme for PML, and that is coming in the way of actual economic reform. The retail taxation mess is just a single example of that. It even got alot of pushback from within FBR, but oh well.

Also, let's refrain from personal attacks.

I agree- I apologize unconditionally to @Mav3rick for the slight attack.

 

[Mav3rick]

The truth is that to some extent, Miftah has made necessary yet unpopular decisions. Our political economy which is dominated by the likes of @maverick1977 will not appreciate this. Nonetheless, you have to give credit where it’s due. Raising petrol prices, which was necessary, really slashed PMLN popularity.

Of course, this is nothing compared to the mess that was left to PTI in 2018. And PTI made much deeper and painful reforms. The difference is that by making the difficult yet necessary decisions, PMLN politics of the last three years, the politics of inflation, stand completely exposed.

Ideally, when PTI was making these decisions based on necessity, they wouldn’t have lost popularity either over the last three years. But our political economy is our country’s biggest Achilles heal.

Miftah raised prices but his 2 month wait cost massive damage to the rupee and to the economy? Had he done that immediately after assuming office, he could have saved the country a few hundred Billion and he would have been able to lower the rate at which it eventually had to be increased the prices by.

It is a blatant lie that PTI inherited a bigger mess than they left be it the reserves, the subsidies, foreign debt, circular debt, inflation, IMF plan sabotage, the diplomatic front etc! Imran Khan brought the country to a point where I sometimes wonder whether he was doing it all on some agenda. He had bankrupted the economy and he was taking on the US, the one country which could help bail us out of the mess.

 

[Ssan]

Miftah raised prices but his 2 month wait cost massive damage to the rupee and to the economy? Had he done that immediately after assuming office, he could have saved the country a few hundred Billion and he would have been able to lower the rate at which it eventually had to be increased the prices by.

It is a blatant lie that PTI inherited a bigger mess than they left be it the reserves, the subsidies, foreign debt, circular debt, inflation, IMF plan sabotage, the diplomatic front etc! Imran Khan brought the country to a point where I sometimes wonder whether he was doing it all on some agenda. He had bankrupted the economy and he was taking on the US, the one country which could help bail us out of the mess.

Miftah wanted to raise prices right away- that is the signal he sent before assuming office. He was c0** blocked by senior N leadership. Not his fault.

It’s a blatant lie that it’s a blatant lie. On every front you are wrong. First, you can look at over all current account for that previous year. You can look at monthly current account at that time. You can look at the direction the monthly was going. You can look at the competitiveness of the export market. Or the compliance of our financial system to attract expat remittances or investment.

Bro, please, can you kindly stop just throwing narratives without basing anything on official stats or facts?

 

[Jango]

How can you say that?

Because I know people close to him. Shahbaz Sharif hates him (they are not even on talking terms), Shahid Khaqan hates him, Kh Asif hates him, Khurram Dastagir, Saad Rafiq is so so, Maryam doesn't hate him but she knows she cannot have control over Dar as much as she has over Miftah, and so on.

Remember a few weeks ago when the rumors about Dar's return started? Suddenly all the N leadership started making pro Miftah tweets? Apart from the opposition by those that are powerful, there was strong opposition from within N league regarding Dar's return as well...see the following for just one example.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1543207514518573057

 

[Mav3rick]

Dude I really don’t understand why you are shitposting here. It’s not that you don’t know a lot, it seems that most of what you know is wrong.

Look at the timeline of the ratings. PMLN left a negative rating that PTI stabilized.

View attachment 868718

It is surprising that the year 2017 is missing from the list which was Dar's last year as Finance Minister. Must I remind you that I speak exclusively of Dar's term and not that of PML overall? I repeatedly, at the sake of repetition, use Dar as the benchmark and he resigned in 2017 after which Miftah started slide of the economy down the drain.

Anyway, here is what the man says himself and I am sure it is searchable:


Global Recognition

Global institutions recognized the improvement of Pakistan’s macro-economic situation as illustrated below:

n IFR Asia declared Pakistan the ‘Issuer of the Year for 2014’ (Pakistan’s sovereign bond was 14 times oversubscribed in the international market)

n Moody’s improved Pakistan’s outlook from negative to stable to positive. In April 2016, it published a report titled ‘Government of Pakistan – B3 Stable’

n Standard & Poor’s (S&P) improved Pakistan’s outlook from negative to stable to positive and on 31st October, 2016, raised Pakistan’s long-term sovereign credit rating to ‘B’, with stable outlook, from ‘B – (minus)’

* Fitch assigned ‘B’ credit rating to Pakistan

* International Bank for Reconstruction and Development (IBRD) resumed financing for Pakistan’s after improvement in Foreign Exchange Reserves of Pakistan

* According to Nielson report on 31 May, 2014, Pakistan had the highest business confidence since 2008

* World Trade Organization’s (WTO) Trade Policy Review of Pakistan in March 2015 noted Pakistan’s resilient economy; stated that despite facing a myriad of adverse circumstances and challenges, Pakistan had managed to post positive growth during the review period. Also highlighted that the economy is expected to expand further

* Pakistan’s economic turnaround was acknowledged in a research report published by Morgan Stanley on 30 January, 2015 titled ‘rise a matter of time’

* US Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) upgraded Pakistan in April 2016

* Forbes also acknowledged Pakistan’s economic turnaround its report titled ‘A global turnaround story’

* According to Atlantic Media Company report on 22 July, 2016, Pakistan was described as ‘one of the top emerging South Asian economies’

* Barron’s Asia, a financial magazine of international repute, declared Pakistan as the ‘next big thing’ and ‘the flag bearer of the positive changes taking place in the South Asian nations’

* PriceWaterHouseCoopers’ (PwC) report of February 2017 projected Pakistan to become the ’20th largest economy by 2030′

Source

Also, @Jango the thing that you all have to consider is the circumstances in which Dar was functioning and compare it to the circumstances when PTI was functioning. From Dharna's to our war with terrorism to daily suo moto cases and judicial activism by CJP to harassment by NAB and a very critical establishment when Dar was FM and compare it to the extraordinary support that all institutions provided to Imran Khan. Let's be honest and fair, for the sake of Pakistan.

Because I know people close to him. Shahbaz Sharif hates him (they are not even on talking terms), Shahid Khaqan hates him, Kh Asif hates him, Khurram Dastagir, Saad Rafiq is so so, Maryam doesn't hate him but she knows she cannot have control over Dar as much as she has over Miftah, and so on.

Remember a few weeks ago when the rumors about Dar's return started? Suddenly all the N leadership started making pro Miftah tweets? Apart from the opposition by those that are powerful, there was strong opposition from within N league regarding Dar's return as well...see the following for just one example.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1543207514518573057

I thought that was just a SS team vs NS team thing.

Sad that PML can play politics even at this crucial junction and not post the best man for the job.

It’s a blatant lie that it’s a blatant lie. On every front you are wrong. First, you can look at over all current account for that previous year. You can look at monthly current account at that time. You can look at the direction the monthly was going. You can look at the competitiveness of the export market. Or the compliance of our financial system to attract expat remittances or investment.

Let's compare the things that I mentioned:

the reserves,
the subsidies,
foreign debt,
circular debt,
inflation,
IMF plan sabotage,
the diplomatic front
etc!

And establish once and for all who is lying blatantly and who is not.

 

[Jango]

* Forbes also acknowledged Pakistan’s economic turnaround its report titled ‘A global turnaround story’

I don't have the time to go through each of the points you mentioned, but here is the link for the quoted point above:

Pakistan: The Next Colombia Success Story?

Pakistan has the potential to be a global turnaround story. I recently spent time in-country listening to a wide range of perspectives and I am convinced that U.S. policymakers and business leaders need to look at Pakistan beyond the security lens. Getting our relationship right will require...

www.forbes.com

No where in this article has the economic prowess or acumen of Dar, or the economic miracles of the man been cited...or any acknowledgement of economic reforms. Those economic which have been cited are those from 2013, compared to 2002! The article looks at the next success story from the war and terrorism angle, and on the basis of the population that we have. There is not a SINGLE economic action by Dar which has been quoted in the article as contributing to the 'success story'. Please...let's not be intellectualy dishonest here.

Also, you mention that Dar got the economy in bad times. Oil prices at global lows, the world growing after a recession, China investing, supply chains popping up everywhere, yet we were declining in our exports, pumping USD into the open market at a rate faster than we could recoup, and becoming a service economy. Where is the success in that?

Aur sonay par suhaga, we were putting up capacity payment plants left right and center just for electoral gimmicks.

Look at it this way. You are in pain...doctor A comes, hooks you up on fentanyl...you are in bliss, the world is paradise, for the moment...but then the long term effects kick in and you are left in ruin for the rest of your life.

In comparison, another doctor comes, gives you only morphine but keeps you on a long term sustainable plan of action....the momentary pain will be greater, and you will think that doc A was much better, he gave you fentanyl and everything was so good...this is your argument right now. Keep up the fentanyl, and just keep on looking at the short term.

For how long would Dar have been pumping USD into the open market, by taking loans? Your industrial base was shrinking (even PPP didn't manage to do that), yet you were spending USD as if it's nobody's business. Shukar hai us waqt oil prices weren't going haywire.

I thought that was just a SS team vs NS team thing.

Sad that PML can play politics even at this crucial junction and not post the best man for the job.

It is on most other things, but on Dar, it is Nawaz Sharif vs everyone else. Why do you think he sticks with Nawaz Sharif all the time like a rash? Whenever someone goes to London, he makes sure that he is present in the room, so that no one can put in a word against him in NS's ear. Shahid Khaqan has complained about this many times as well.

 

[Ssan]

It is surprising that the year 2017 is missing from the list which was Dar's last year as Finance Minister. Must I remind you that I speak exclusively of Dar's term and not that of PML overall? I repeatedly, at the sake of repetition, use Dar as the benchmark and he resigned in 2017 after which Miftah started slide of the economy down the drain.

Anyway, here is what the man says himself and I am sure it is searchable:


Global Recognition

Global institutions recognized the improvement of Pakistan’s macro-economic situation as illustrated below:

n IFR Asia declared Pakistan the ‘Issuer of the Year for 2014’ (Pakistan’s sovereign bond was 14 times oversubscribed in the international market)

n Moody’s improved Pakistan’s outlook from negative to stable to positive. In April 2016, it published a report titled ‘Government of Pakistan – B3 Stable’

n Standard & Poor’s (S&P) improved Pakistan’s outlook from negative to stable to positive and on 31st October, 2016, raised Pakistan’s long-term sovereign credit rating to ‘B’, with stable outlook, from ‘B – (minus)’

* Fitch assigned ‘B’ credit rating to Pakistan

* International Bank for Reconstruction and Development (IBRD) resumed financing for Pakistan’s after improvement in Foreign Exchange Reserves of Pakistan

* According to Nielson report on 31 May, 2014, Pakistan had the highest business confidence since 2008

* World Trade Organization’s (WTO) Trade Policy Review of Pakistan in March 2015 noted Pakistan’s resilient economy; stated that despite facing a myriad of adverse circumstances and challenges, Pakistan had managed to post positive growth during the review period. Also highlighted that the economy is expected to expand further

* Pakistan’s economic turnaround was acknowledged in a research report published by Morgan Stanley on 30 January, 2015 titled ‘rise a matter of time’

* US Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) upgraded Pakistan in April 2016

* Forbes also acknowledged Pakistan’s economic turnaround its report titled ‘A global turnaround story’

* According to Atlantic Media Company report on 22 July, 2016, Pakistan was described as ‘one of the top emerging South Asian economies’

* Barron’s Asia, a financial magazine of international repute, declared Pakistan as the ‘next big thing’ and ‘the flag bearer of the positive changes taking place in the South Asian nations’

* PriceWaterHouseCoopers’ (PwC) report of February 2017 projected Pakistan to become the ’20th largest economy by 2030′

Source

Also, @Jango the thing that you all have to consider is the circumstances in which Dar was functioning and compare it to the circumstances when PTI was functioning. From Dharna's to our war with terrorism to daily suo moto cases and judicial activism by CJP to harassment by NAB and a very critical establishment when Dar was FM and compare it to the extraordinary support that all institutions provided to Imran Khan. Let's be honest and fair, for the sake of Pakistan.


I thought that was just a SS team vs NS team thing.

Sad that PML can play politics even at this crucial junction and not post the best man for the job.


Let's compare the things that I mentioned:

the reserves,
the subsidies,
foreign debt,
circular debt,
inflation,
IMF plan sabotage,
the diplomatic front
etc!

And establish once and for all who is lying blatantly and who is not.

Bro, i don’t know why you view Dar so positively- if anyone is responsible for the current pain we are in- it’s Dar. I am not understating this- he really did long term damage to our economy- burnt through our reserves to keep the rupee stable- in the short term this feels great- in the long term it’s like heroine- makes you incredibly incompetitive. Your impression of Dar is fallacious. People have been posting feel good news about Pakistan since Musharraf when we joined the N-11. If anyone deserves credit for these news article, give it to your least favorite dictator.

Of all the fronts you listed, I see you have left out the most crucial which is the current account. Which is surprising. Even with the list presented, your point is not made. PTI inherited a much worse economy when normalized against the official size of the economy. Unfortunately, the last two items on your list are hard to evaluate numerically, the others (maybe excepting the circular debt), along with current account, exports, remittances, banking regulations, clearly show PTI inherited a much worse economy.

 

[AZ1]

Miftah raised prices but his 2 month wait cost massive damage to the rupee and to the economy? Had he done that immediately after assuming office, he could have saved the country a few hundred Billion and he would have been able to lower the rate at which it eventually had to be increased the prices by.

It is a blatant lie that PTI inherited a bigger mess than they left be it the reserves, the subsidies, foreign debt, circular debt, inflation, IMF plan sabotage, the diplomatic front etc! Imran Khan brought the country to a point where I sometimes wonder whether he was doing it all on some agenda. He had bankrupted the economy and he was taking on the US, the one country which could help bail us out of the mess.

this is where you are wrong and need to check the figures and facts. Your base is wrong on this thats why you are seeing things differently. Whole story in just 1 video. watch till end

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=982167622475578

 

[Jango]

normalized against the official size of the economy.

You really expect someone to know what normalization is when they fall for the Imran Khan nay 40,000 rupay ka qarza lia, ham nay 20,000 lia! (And yes, IK is responsible for this too, he also made these statements).