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Pakistani Nationalism - contradictions?

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think the hope is that Pakistan will become recognized as the leader of this block by virtue of its might, relatively speaking, if not now, then at some point in the future.
What is wrong with you? Did you read the OP. This not about leader of anything but the nature of Pakistan identity which suffers from inherent contradictions which is why too many of our people end up exploding themselves, shooting or otherwise doing dumb thing on behalf the fcukin global ummah.
 
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What is wrong with you? Did you read the OP. This not about leader of anything but the nature of Pakistan identity which suffers from inherent contradictions which is why too many of our people end up exploding themselves, shooting or otherwise doing dumb thing on behalf the fcukin global ummah.

Yes, I did read the OP, and yes, there is much that is wrong with me. :D

But, on topic, the hope continues to be that assuming leadership of this block will erase all the downsides that you mention. The prize is deemed to be worth the costs.
 
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Pakistan can talk on behalf of Pakistani Muslims
Your a fcukin tredious person. I know your city Multan gave Alexandar the Great a good whipping but I just hope they are not as thick as you.

Tell me again. When you say Pakidstan can talk on behalf of ~ does that exclude Parsee, Christians, Sikhs, Hindus in the country? Is PM IK only PM of Muslims of Pakistan? Where does that leave the Parsee, Christians, Sikhs, Hindus?

News for you. Pakistan represents and acts on behalf of all it's citizens ~ of whatever religion or creed. When you say 'Pakistan' it covers all citizens [Muslims/Christians etc but excludes Muslims of rest of the ummah.
 
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Yes, I did read the OP, and yes, there is much that is wrong with me. :D

But, on topic, the hope continues to be that assuming leadership of this block will erase all the downsides that you mention. The prize is deemed to be worth the costs.

To be accepted as leaders of the Muslim world, you need to first be accepted as equals.

I think, if so, you have a problem there.

Cheers, Doc
 
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leadership
Leadership won't. If they all are integrated into the Pakistani state, yes that would. But chance of that happening is proportional to me sprouting wings and joining the flock of birds I see out of my window.
 
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To be accepted as leaders of the Muslim world, you need to first be accepted as equals.

I think, if so, you have a problem there.

Cheers, Doc

Leadership won't. If they all are integrated into the Pakistani state, yes that would. But chance of that happening is proportional to me sprouting wings and joining the flock of birds I see out of my window.

As I said above, the hope springs eternal that if not now then at some point in the future such leadership will solve all the problems mentioned, despite evidence to the contrary.
 
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As I said above, the hope springs eternal that if not now then at some point in the future such leadership will solve all the problems mentioned, despite evidence to the contrary.

Indus n me are saying that there is no chance of Pakistan being accepted as the leader of the Muslim world.

You are saying that there is no evidence that if that happens it will solve your problems.

There is a significant difference in hope and probability in the two positions.

Cheers, Doc
 
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The Arab race had been vassals of the Persians for over 3000 years. Through the reign of all the great Persian Zoroastrian empires.

The Persians have always seen the Arabs as an inferior race. One to be tolerated and ruled over. A race of sand dwelling barbarians who they commonly abuse as lizard eaters and daughter killers.

The Arabs were pre-Islam never hated by the Persians. Only looked down on. The Persians saw only the Greeks and the Roman empires as their equal and military competition to the dominion over the civilized world stretching from Asia to Europe and extending to parts of Russia and China.

The Persians always had a hands off policy with their Aryan correligionists in India. The Indus forming the unspoken cleave line between the two civilizations.

Zoroastrianism (Mazdayasniism - and Mithraism and Magiism and Manicheism) was the spiritual monotheistic precusrsor, the first message to the first prophet to and from his chosen people, in the ancient world.

It colored and widely impacted on Judaiism and Christianity and finally Islam. The core tenets remaining the same and unchanged.

Where the faiths diverged and so did the individual Books was the tribe and people specific lore and life in those times. Essentially, Islam came to the Arabs last. And the Quran was the Avesta (and the Torah and the Bible after it) written in Arabic lore, and tribal code.

Islam was always a political movement. An imperialistic movement of Arab rise and finally their day in the sun.

If Al Qadissiyah had gone the other way, Zoroastrianism (more powerful than Christianity for over 500 years of the Roman empire) would have been the dominant religion in the world today. And Islam would have remained a local Arab belief system. Or an Arab cult.

But the boy king leading a weakened empire fatigued by over 2000 years of continuous war, lost. And the Arab hordes sacked Persia.

The Persians though did not go down without a fight and pockets of resistance through the land fought on under feudal rulers and satraps for the next 300 years.

However, the empire was finished. The emperor assassinated. His sons fled into exile to hold a titular Persian throne and court in distant China. From where they plotted a return. That never happened.

Many of the Persian elite seeing the writing on the wall made deals with the Arabs and other satraps, as vicious infighting ensued in the dying throes of the Persian empire. They converted to Islam and jockeyed for power in the new scheme of things.

Things became increasingly difficult for the Zoroastrians and their temples were defiled, their fires spat into. Back breaking taxes and the sword for worshiping Ahura Mazda and not Allah. For following Persian Zarathushtra and not Arab Muhammad.

Increasingly, simultaneously, a power vacuum followed the death of Muhammad. And a power struggle ensued between the warring Arab elite and the Persian elite who were far far more sophisticated in matter of rule and politics and power dynamics and the control of hearts and minds of native and alien populaces on a global scale.

Essentially what happened from there was that increasingly Persians started becoming Muslim. Accepting Islam. And then remolding Islam into their ancestral belief system, insidiously, systematically, thoroughly, completely, to the point where Islam essentially became Zoroastrianism Part 2. Where Ahura Mazda was now called Allah. Where Zarathushtra was now called Muhammad. Where the Avesta gave way to the Quran - but their Quran. And thence followed the writing of the Hadith.

It is a known fact that to a man, almost all the clerics and writers of those times, were Persian. Not Arab. Theirs is the narrative that got pushed. That endured. That got propagated over the next 1300 years of Islam around the world.And softened the blow for the common Persians when after 300 years of struggle Persia finally "converted" completely by 1000 AD.

And therein lies the irony. Islam in its moment of greatest triumph, also seeded its permanent internal split and war.

And the Middle East and the Muslim world will always have the mirage of Peace till Persia finally reclaims herself and reverts to her original faith. And the mother faith of all monotheist major faiths of the world.

It is a huge soul numbing and mental crunch for the Persians vis a vis the Arabs. Who they hate. But love Muhammad. To having to write in the Arabic script when the Persian one was one of the world's oldest. Of praying in Arabic and not their ancestral Avestan.

All this while they continue to fight the Arabs for control of their former empire minion states. And peoples. Once more.

Cheers, Doc

Well that's good.
 
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Indus n me are saying that there is no chance of Pakistan being accepted as the leader of the Muslim world.

You are saying that there is no evidence that if that happens it will solve your problems.

There is a significant difference in hope and probability in the two positions.

Cheers, Doc

That is why I said that the hope springs eternal. Eternal. Please look up the meaning if unsure.

(I have been blamed for being a pessimist instead of the realist that I am, but I have since learnt to keep hope alive, no matter what. :D )
 
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the current one is working fine but can be improved by eleminating anti state elements, ethno nationalists and extremists. and also thinking pakistan first while increasing influence in the muslim world.
 
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Stop being silly. What politicians say is political rhetoric and is one of primary reasons why brand Pakistan has toilet paper value and the only thing it conjures is Islamic terrorism or rabid mullahs coughing on fumes of tyres their mob follers are burning. And Pakistan citizens are like orphans with a country but no identity other than diffuse notion of ummah which of course they are all too often prostituted by foreign forces.

For rest of the post I will give a summary when I get time.


And I will repeat the fundamentel question. Have a look at the map. Look at the 50 green Muslim majority countries. How does Pakistan identity intend to shoehorn something that is spread out in 50 Muslim countries unto just itself - the yellow patch. Pakistan does not own it. It is spread all over the globe.


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Simple answere none of those countries were made in the name of islam ... at the time of creation of none of the country millions of muslims migrated to the country except for Pakistan ...

These are all historical facts ...

Your exposing the contradiction here that I began in the opening thread. For pete's sakes why can't you see the darned contradiction in -

  • Muslims are global, Islam is trans-national with no fcukin borders
  • Pakistan is limited to a geography, restricted to defined border, which only covers Pakistani citizens
  • Pakistan state covers Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, Hindu's Parsee and animists like Kalash.
Which airforce did Cecil Chaudry fly for when he was killed and given medal for bravery? Who was Justice Dorab Patel? And what nationality are Kalash in Pakistan? Before you reply go back to post #159 and look at the map.

Why the hundreds of thousands of muslims died for migration to Pakistan at the time of dovision ...

Your logic is without basis and without on grojnd facts ... something applicable for Pakistan does not necessaril apply on other islamic countries ...
 
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Agreed but in case of Pakistan it is the only reason and the only justification to join us ... Without this cause we will be disintegrated as there is no Pakistani nationality other than Muslims of sub-continent

It was the reason at the time of creation but its not anymore. I am ethically Pukhtoon but where ever i go people see a Pakistani, whether that is in Australia or when i was in Saudi. We are not part of Pakistan because it is a Muslim country, because even Afghanistan is a Muslim country. We are Pakistanis because that is the country where my parents were born and where i was born and thats it. My nationality is Pakistan.
 
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